"Gladiator" Talkback (Spoilers)

[DR. BELCH]

So I finally saw this movie today, and I enjoyed it so much I waited until the second showing so I could see the second half again--that was my favorite part; I thought it got off to a slow start for the first half-hour or 45 minutes.
It's a year old, but I'll consider these spoilers anyway and act accordingly:

Spoiler:

The first thing that struck me was the emporer's name: Commodus--i.e. "commode", or toilet. A monstrous pun that echoes Twain's Pudd'nhead Wilson...the slave mother naming her baby "Valet de Chambre", or "chamber pot", ignorant of the meaning. Appropriate for a man whose crimes and fits of rage make him look like a tantrummy cut-rate Caigula.
Since the movie was set in the Roman empire, and homosexuality was encouraged between soldiers to increase their fielty to each other, I expected more yaoi. Thankfully there was little of that (though there was a fat guy with Shirley Temple curls whose voice made me think of Team Rocket's Butch, plus a discussion of gay giraffes)...but the whole pseudoincestuous relationship between Commodus and his sister Lucilla made me cringe a bit. He kisses her hand, lies on top of her in bed with his mouth an inch from hers, and begs her to spend the night with him as if he were a child afraid of the dark. Plus, was it just me, or did it look like he might be having some too-tender feelings towards his nephew as well?--watch the scene as he tells the boy about Cleopatra and you'll catch my drift. At first I thought Lucilla was Lady Macbeth, manipulating her brother to control Rome from behind the purple curtain, but it gradually became apparent that she and Lucius were the victim of the violent whims of a baby crowned a god.
There was blood to spare in Gladiator. There's a warrior who gets stabbed in the gut and vomits blood out the mouthhole of his helmet, innumerable beheadings, and a guy getting whacked in half at the waist during a chariot match.
Grossest scene besides the bloodshed--the maggots squirming in the gash in Maximus' shoulder. I hear they and leeches are making a comeback in the medical world.
The music--some female vocalist singing in Latin--as Maximus dies and a freaky camera effect that looks like his corpse is spinning (symbolizing going to heaven) really lend it a surreal note at the end.

From what I'm reading at www.amazon.com , this movie's getting some mixed reviews. A lot of gripes about dubious historical accuracy, bad camerawork and incompetent directing (due to another director taking over after Oliver Reed's sudden death), plus phrases like "Braveheart in togas" and "Spartacus ripoff", are being thrown about. On the whole I can forgive historical license if there's good character drama/interaction, which there is (esp. from Joachim Phoenix, who expertly makes Commodus look absolutely depaved).

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
The first thing that struck me was the emporer's name: Commodus--i.e. "commode", or toilet. A monstrous pun that echoes Twain's Pudd'nhead Wilson...the slave mother naming her baby "Valet de Chambre", or "chamber pot", ignorant of the meaning. Appropriate for a man whose crimes and fits of rage make him look like a tantrummy cut-rate Caigula.

Um, that was the historical character's name: Lucius Aelius Aurelius Commodus. (Unlike "Caligula," which was the nickname of Gaius Julius Caesar Germanicus.) Also, the Latin (the root for our "accommodate" and "commodious") apparently does not have the "chamber pot" connotations.

Or do I misunderstand you, and you're simply struck by the fittedness of the name when rendered into colloquial English?

[Peace Keeper]

Comodus' throne has "pimp" written on it.

[DR. BELCH]

I'll be honest; I didn't know how much of the movie was historical and what was fabricated. I mean, they use the name "Caesar" a lot, but it wasn't Julius or Augustus or even Gais (Caligula), or any I'm familiar with.
There was actually an emporer by that name? Well, the Latin root word may have been corrupted over the years to"commode" --I recall seeing that word referring to a chamber pot in an English translation of a Russian novel (the name escapes me for the moment, but it's about a man who strikes his hip while hanging a curtain and ends up withering and dying of a malady stemming from that mishap). And the Russian word "czar" is a corruption of "Ceasar". So you see, I'm not wholly off the mark.
But of Commodius:

Spoiler:

was he really that carnally depraved as to demand his sister to sleep with him and give birth to his child? And did he actually go into the ring with a gladiator and fight a duel to the death?

The characters/names may have been real, but how much of the plot was? (Of course I could ask the same of Hilary Swank in Boys Don't Cry, another "true" story sentimentalized a bit that used several composite and stock characters....)

[don Jaime]

Yup, he died as a gladiator. Commodus was the nutso son of Marcus Aurelius, the first emperor in a long time to be a natural son (previous emperors had got in the habit of "adopting" quality generals or bureaucrats to succeed them). He had an insane fascination with gladiators and appeared as one on several occasions, and I'm thinking that's how he got himself killed. I don't know about his sister, but he was certainly screwy enough to try it, I reckon. I'll look it up when I get home.

"Caesar" from OL "caedere" (to cut - the first Caesar was delivered by Caesarean section) was the name of a noble family. The famous Gaius Julius Caesar (his dad had the same name) ultimately won the power struggle between the nobles and his side, the mob. He was made dictator for life and lived six months. The power struggle began anew and was finally won by great-nephew Gaius Octavius, who was named heir to his estate and the name Caesar in GJC's will. (A son by Cleopatra was done away with in the process.) Rechristened Gaius Octavius Caesar, with the surname Augustus, he had two grandsons but outlived them. The name was willed to his wife Livia so she could will them to her son, Tiberius. By the time Tiberius' line died out, Caesar had come to mean emperor as much as did one (long dead) family, so all later emperors took it as a title, including Commodus.

Homosexuality was tolerated by Romans; it was considered a Greek affectation. Citizens could only be the seme, and with slaves or freemen. You could lose citizenship for being an uke.

I haven't seen the movie. Looks cool, though.

[killercroc]

Originally posted by don Jaime
Yup, he died as a gladiator. Commodus was the nutso son of Marcus Aurelius, the first emperor in a long time to be a natural son (previous emperors had got in the habit of "adopting" quality generals or bureaucrats to succeed them). He had an insane fascination with gladiators and appeared as one on several occasions, and I'm thinking that's how he got himself killed. I don't know about his sister, but he was certainly screwy enough to try it, I reckon. I'll look it up when I get home.

"Caesar" from OL "caedere" (to cut - the first Caesar was delivered by Caesarean section) was the name of a noble family. The famous Gaius Julius Caesar (his dad had the same name) ultimately won the power struggle between the nobles and his side, the mob. He was made dictator for life and lived six months. The power struggle began anew and was finally won by great-nephew Gaius Octavius, who was named heir to his estate and the name Caesar in GJC's will. (A son by Cleopatra was done away with in the process.) Rechristened Gaius Octavius Caesar, with the surname Augustus, he had two grandsons but outlived them. The name was willed to his wife Livia so she could will them to her son, Tiberius. By the time Tiberius' line died out, Caesar had come to mean emperor as much as did one (long dead) family, so all later emperors took it as a title, including Commodus.

Homosexuality was tolerated by Romans; it was considered a Greek affectation. Citizens could only be the seme, and with slaves or freemen. You could lose citizenship for being an uke.

I haven't seen the movie. Looks cool, though.

See you guys? Okies are smart!

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

A simple, bloody revenge story for the testosterones. Therefore in my book it is a classic.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
Well, the Latin root word may have been corrupted over the years to"commode" --I recall seeing that word referring to a chamber pot in an English translation of a Russian novel

According to the dictionary I consulted, the chamberpot usage descends from the French "commode" (itself descended from the Latin) which apparently means "convenient." (We've got enough French speakers around here to straighten me out if I've got it really wrong.) Whether in French it originally was used to refer to a chamberpot, or whether the English took a French word and bent it to the usage, I think we can all agree that a chamberpot would be a convenience.

But of Commodius was he really

Spoiler:

carnally depraved as to demand his sister to sleep with him and give birth to his child? And did he actually go into the ring with a gladiator and fight a duel to the death?

Well, he was certainly a lot of fun, if you go in for that kind of fun. Gibbon says he had a "seraglio of three hundred beautiful women, and as many boys . . . and wherever the arts of seduction proved ineffectual, the brutal lover had recourse to violence."

As for his sister: I can't find mention of any hanky-panky between them; the film's plot here sounds a lot more like the gossip about Caligula and his sister. Anyway, Lucilla was far from the blushing maid. She was the mastermind behind an early assassination attempt on him, part of a naked power-grab that failed; she was exiled and eventually executed. Worse, this bungled assassination seems to have been the key event that pushed Commodus over the edge, as afterwards he became paranoid and bloodthirsty.

don Jaime reports on his gladitorial abilities; I'll add that he styled himself the "Roman Hercules," killing lions, panthers, elephants, and even ostriches, rhinoceroses and giraffes specially imported, and fought in gladiatorial combat at least seven hundred and thirty five times. He didn't die in the games, but was murdered by his favorite concubine with the connivance of his chamberlain and a Praetorian praefect. They gave him drugged wine, and while he was asleep a young wrestler entered his chambers and strangled him.

As for Maximus. There were 2 brothers, Maximus and Condianus, very close to each other, who were elevated by Marcus to high offices, including the consulship and a military command that resulted in a great victory over a German tribe. The jealous Commodus had them put to death. I think that's as close as one can get to the central figure in the film.

Not just quotes, but all this information I draw from Gibbon, who really goes to town on these guys.

[James Harvey]

I thought it was a good flick. I didn't care how accurate it was or whatever, I just enjoyed it. There are alot of flub ups in the film. Some of the CG is faulty, there are some scenes mixed up, and some extras appear in jeans and a t-shirt. But it's still a fun revenge flick.

[mxyzptlk]

commodos was a true emperor was very ruthless and he was murdered by his royal gaurds(i studied rome this year in history)

wooooooo post 300 i finally joined the 300 club

[don Jaime]

What Maxie said. Grimal reiterates Gibbon, and mentions that Commodus' favorite was a woman named Marcia, former concubine of Ummidius Quadratus, "and, as is well known, soon came to rule over his heart and his senses to the exclusion of anyone else." Wasn't well known to me, but it does appear to exclude sis.

[Maxie Zeus]

Caligula thought that he was Zeus. I think that I am Zeus. That must mean that. . . I am Caligula!

Now, this could be fun. <evil >

[mxyzptlk]

wasnt he the one who made his favorite hoarse consul

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by don Jaime
Commodus' favorite was a woman named Marcia

Little known fact: Concubine Marcia had a sister named Janus, who was also a concubine. Very jealous of the fact that Commodus liked Marcia more, she was. "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia," she'd complain while wandering around the Forum.

Okay, I'm fired. . . .

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by mxyzptlk
wasnt he the one who made his favorite hoarse consul

Yeah, and that was about the sanest thing he did.

General recommendation: Everyone check out "I Claudius" from the videostore sometime. Boy, was that a fun mini-series. (A lot more so than "Gladiator, IMHO.)

[mxyzptlk]

hey maxie i have taken a class on drama and we learned about the greek theatre isnt dues ex machina a greek theatrical machine

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by mxyzptlk
hey maxie i have taken a class on drama and we learned about the greek theatre isnt dues ex machina a greek theatrical machine

Yeah, the gods used to ride down in it when the plot required divine intervention to solve the characters' problems. From there it has taken to meaning any lame plot device that resolves the conflict. (Having the bad guy suddenly get hit by a truck, for instance, would qualify as a "deus ex machina.")

That's my job around here, anyway, to wander in and offer pathetic answers to interesting questions: Did Terry kill the Joker when he electrocuted the chip? Would Christopher Walken make a good "old Bruce Wayne"? How many nanites can dance on the head of one of Tetch's Mad Hatpins? (BTW, the answers to those questions are, respectively, "Yes," "Butterscotch" and "Colonel Mustard in the library with an A-bomb.")

[don Jaime]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Little known fact: Concubine Marcia had a sister named Janus, who was also a concubine. Very jealous of the fact that Commodus liked Marcia more, she was. "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia," she'd complain while wandering around the Forum.

Okay, I'm fired. . . .

Yes, but Janus would never say that to Marcia. That's because she was two-faced.

MWAAAH! G'NIGHT EVERYBODY!

[JustWhelmed]

Now, you just saw this movie? It's been out of the theaters for over a year now. I've owned it on DVD for several months.

[James Harvey]

It's a great 2 disc DVD set. The movie is a good movie, although wasn't worthy of Best Picture (TRAFFIC anyone?), but still it's a great action packed revenge flick.