"WWE RAW" 6-1-09 Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Extreme Rules is just six days away. What will happen on RAW tonight?

WWE RAW #836
Monday, June 1, 2009 @ 9 p.m. ET/8 CT on USA Network

HEADS OR TAILS?
Tonight, The Animal Batista will enter the steel cage against either Cody Rhodes or Ted DiBiase as chosen by a flip of the coin by their mentor, WWE Champion Randy Orton.

TITLE IN PARADISE?
Last Monday, Kofi Kingston prevailed in a Triple Threat Match to earn a United States Title Match against champion MVP on the next edition of Raw. Can The Jamaican Craze seize The Franchise Playa's coveted gold?

WORLD'S LARGEST TAG MATCH
Just six days before facing Big Show at Extreme Rules, John Cena will team with a randomly selected partner to face Big Show & The Miz. Also, Mickie James & Kelly Kelly will face Divas Champion Maryse & Beth Phoenix.

[EinBebop]

So WWE's getting around the retirement bit for now by having a parking lot brawl? Probably ill-advised to rip off the least well-received Rocky. (Though I liked it well enough).

[Master Toon]

Kofi beat MVP? My jaw dropped. I was looking like this for about a minute --->

[hobbyfan]

The good:

Kofi beating MVP for the US title. Best match on the show. MVP, you'd think, would turn heel before the end of the summer, but Raw is too heel heavy as it is, and turning Porter at this point is not an option. With Cena going away supposedly to make another movie in a few weeks, and Triple H due back soon, probably for another DX reunion run, there still isn't enough depth on the face side.

The bad:

Cena/Chavo vs. Miz/Big Show. A protracted farce. An improbable partners match is what it was. Show---and probably every other heel---hates Miz. Cena doesn't trust Chavo, who didn't do anything other than collect the pin. Lame.

Women's tag. Unacceptable. If Maryse couldn't beat Kelly clean last week in a title match, why have her go over in a tag match after Mickie is taken out of play? Backwards booking, IMPO.

Vicki vs. Santino. It wasn't a match, but an attempt at humiliation. This is where you need a higher authority over Vicki to step in and finally punish her. She MUST lose on Sunday.

The brutal:

Flair vs. Orton. Raise yer hand if you knew the fight would spill into the arena. The punt here was unacceptable as well.

The booking is way past complacent. You have a heel administration that must be cut down, preferably now. Your ratings are down because of the complacency of the writing, coupled with growing viewer disinterest. Not even a petty dispute involving the NBA playoffs could cause a ratings spike. If you're Vince McMahon, you have to finally accept the fact that the fans are right. They want Vicki gone. They're tired of heel GM's. It's time to take Raw into a different direction. NOW!

[Hobbes829]

why was the punt unnacceptable?

how were they improbable partners? they didn't chose who their partners were. who cares if no one likes the miz? He did cut a very good promo

Kofi is proving to be an awesome all around wrestler. He can talk, he can sell.

Heel administration? you mean vicky as GM? I'll agree that she shouldn't be gm anymore, but she has a place on the show as she can get heat.

You don't need a balance of heels and babyfaces. It's probably better to have more heels than babyfaces anyways.

[Marvin Tikvah]

Ugh, why is Kelly still employed? She's not as terrible as she used to be, but there's still far more deserving divas on the roster to fued for the title with the awesome Maryse.

Cody got squashed real bad.

Nice tag team match. The Miz's antics are really reminding me of Jericho's gimmick from WCW where he was supposedly fueding with Goldberg. Also, Chavo picks up the win? How long did it take for him to finally get a victory?

MVP and Kofi tore the house down. These two are fun to watch, and although I'm an MVP mark, I think he's reached the point where he doesn't need the US Title to make his presence known. Hopefully, things only go up from here.

[Condiment King]

Best Raw in awhile, actually. Not great but I thought it was good.

I don't get why you would have a cage match on Raw six days before the PPV. I never get why they hype up gimmick matches sometimes by giving a lame version of the gimmick match away. Batista vs Cody Rhodes was not great, and I'm getting tired of all these cage matches ending in pinfalls. I mean, I'm fine with it being an option I guess, but why does every cage match in WWE have a pinfall? Did Jericho beat Batista in 2008 by going out of the cage? That's the only one recently I can think of, if it even happened.

Flair really brought it tonight. Both his promos were fantastic. It's amazing that he's still one of the best promo guys in the company and especially on Raw.

I think the real feud here is Mickie vs Maryse, so it doesn't really matter if Maryse pins Kelly Kelly. Since Maryse got the pinfall, BETH PHOENIX got her first win in forever. Also Beth looked like a fool by grabbing Maryse's arm and raising it in victory like they were pals. After Maryse had badmouthed her on commentary just weeks prior. This was really Beth's fault unless they told her to do that. Maryse even shrugged her off and held the title in her face, while Beth seemed oblivious.

When the Colons came out, I was expecting Kendrick to have another partner, but he didn't even make the show. Sad. Hardy & Regal were very entertaining. I loved Hardy calling DOUBLE ELBOW and then Regal ignoring. The miscommunication was hilarious. Then that Regal/Hardy/Guerreros sketch was fantastic, and Matt's face was golden after Vickie laughed. That was the first time this Vickie/pig garbage ever amused me.

Big Show & Miz vs Cena & Chavo. It was what it was. I actually liked the Big Show and Miz stuff. It was entertaining. I really feel like Miz is the main guy on Raw who has been elevated by the draft. He's squabbling with the likes of Cena and Big Show and has been for weeks. Also Miz's promo was great. Chavo stealing the win was fine because at this point who the hell cares about anything Cena vs Big Show. Who remotely could care? I can't.

MVP vs Kofi was better than expected. I loved the backstage banter they had before the match. It made it feel really special. Then the match was PPV-quality. Why wasn't this on PPV and Vickie vs Santina on Raw tonight? Kofi winning the US belt surprised me, but y'know MVP has had that US belt since before WrestleMania, which made him the titleholder with the 3rd longest ongoing reign until tonight (he was behind the two diva titles).

The Vickie/Santino stuff was actually decent, I thought.

The main event was good. Orton vs Flair had a believable fight all around the place, but what really made the segment for me was what happened when they got in the cage. I absolutely loved when Orton started manhandling Flair and finally punted him right in Batista's face. He then put on his most maniacal face. Orton should definitely win at Extreme Rules. This man should get a nice, long reign. Oddly enough, I felt like WWE has been building more toward Orton vs Flair. The whole Batista sticking up for Flair thing seems weak to me, especially considering all the segments where Batista seems to act like Flair's out of his mind for doing the things he's doing.

On logic: the two run-ins and the timing of them made no sense, though. Dibiase & Rhodes came out so late. Even if Orton told them to stay back and he wanted to prove he was better, that was too late to be believable. Then Batista came out really late to save Flair.

On Flair: He was punted. So is he gone? Was he really just the bridge to the second Orton-Batista match? That really surprises me if so.

[krazymed]

Ugh, why is Kelly still employed?

Blond hair and a big chest. Vince will never fire that. Beth Phoenix, Jillian Hall, Michelle McCool, Tiffany, Maryse. Not an accident that they are the top women stars in the company right now...

[Nygma]

He can talk

He can? He sounds to much like Hermes on Futurama for me to take him seriously. From the moment I heard him talk it screamed midcard wrestler. No wonder they didn't allow him to talk until now.

You don't need a balance of heels and babyfaces. It's probably better to have more heels than babyfaces anyways.

No, you do need a balance in terms of storytelling. Otherwise heels and faces end up wrestling each other. And that doesn't sell as well as face vs heel.

I also ended up changing the channel once Vickie Guerrero brought out the buckets of hog slop. How anybody finds segments centered around pig crap getting dumped on somebody as anything other than intelligence insulting, I don't know. Though I'm sure Brian GeWirtz probably thought it was funny.

Comment by Jerry Lawler: "If this were any other retired wrestler, Randy Orton would've ended this."
Somewhere Steve Austin is getting in his truck to go kick Lawler's ass for that dumbass comment. Or at least I hope Austin was.

Watching Flair continue to tarnish his legacy like tonight just makes me sad.

MVP needs to be cocky if he's going to be a face. Him just naturally respecting people makes him less entertaining. You never saw The Rock telling people he respected his opponent for winning cleanly.

[Master Toon]

why was the punt unnacceptable?

He's probably talking about how fake it looked.

Ugh, why is Kelly still employed? She's not as terrible as she used to be, but there's still far more deserving divas on the roster to fued for the title with the awesome Maryse.

I don't care as long as she keeps those big eyelashes.

He can? He sounds to much like Hermes on Futurama for me to take him seriously.

lol wut?

[Wonderwall]

I liked RAW today. Big improvement from last week. Kofi is yet again the highlight tonight( match wise ) and his match with MVP was good. Kinda wish it had been on PPV but at the same time I can see why its not.

[Condiment King]

According to WWE.com, Kofi Kingston will defend the US title against William Regal, MVP and Matt Hardy in a fatal four-way at Extreme Rules. I guess the gimmick is that it's a fatal four-way, which is fine by me. Should be great if it gets time and doesn't get bumped out by something unworthy (I'm looking at you Vickie vs Santina). While Judgment Day was Smackdown-heavy, Extreme Rules is now decidedly Raw-heavy.

Also I forgot to mention this but I think Raw is face-heavy, not heel-heavy. Randy Orton and Big Show are the only two legit main event heels. Maybe it feels heel heavy because Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase are constantly doing stable vs one wrestler angles, but I don't consider those two major players yet. I wouldn't even call The Miz one yet either, considering he hasn't had a legit big feud match on PPV yet.

When you look at the overall Raw roster, some the biggest names in the company are all on the same show and all faces: Triple H, Batista, John Cena, Shawn Michaels. I'm not saying that they will all ever be around at the same time in 2009, but the people are there. And I would be surprised if Triple H and HBK weren't around by Summerslam.

WWE is doing a decent balancing act with Randy Orton and Big Show vs John Cena and Batista right now. If any of those four principal players are lost soon, someone who's been on the sidelines recently will step in.

[bigddan11]

The bad:
Women's tag. Unacceptable. If Maryse couldn't beat Kelly clean last week in a title match, why have her go over in a tag match after Mickie is taken out of play? Backwards booking, IMPO.

Maryse lost to Kelly last week by DQ.

[Mesousa]

I...didn't like the ending.

I liked the Flair/Orton "unsanctioned" match (dear God, was Orton's chest flinching to watch after being chopped so many times), but the ending felt milked.

I mean, look at Batista, how on earth caould he open the cage door, what is he, Mark Henry?

He was even seen trying to climb the cage, and Batista just plain decided to climb down again after Orton RKO'd Flair. After, Bastista was acting like a crazy monkey.

The worst part though, is when, after Orton punted Flair, Batista says "I'm gonna tear you apart" OVER AND OVER.

[hobbyfan]

why was the punt unnacceptable?

how were they improbable partners? they didn't chose who their partners were. who cares if no one likes the miz? He did cut a very good promo

Kofi is proving to be an awesome all around wrestler. He can talk, he can sell.

Heel administration? you mean vicky as GM? I'll agree that she shouldn't be gm anymore, but she has a place on the show as she can get heat.

You don't need a balance of heels and babyfaces. It's probably better to have more heels than babyfaces anyways.

1. In this case and context, it wasn't needed. Flair isn't a full-time guy anymore, and Orton already has more than enough heat as champion heading into Sunday's title fight vs. Batista.

2. They did a similar stunt with a "randomly selected opponent" on Smackdown a couple of times in the past. In both cases, Shannon Moore was selected to take beatings, first from Brock Lesnar, and in the 2nd instance, from JBL during his title run. Tweaking it by making Chavo a "randomly selected" partner for John Cena brought back those memories, because I suspect Chavo's name was the only one in the bag anyway, much like Moore in those other cases.

3. I'm worried that Kofi could end up being a transitional champion. They've since announced a 4-way for the US title for Sunday. Kofi vs. MVP vs. Regal vs. Hardy. Basically the same match as last week, but with MVP thrown in. Kofi has the skills, but certain on the creative staff keep giving him the short shrift.

4. As I've said before, Vicki has jumped the shark. She is getting more heat than Orton, and you shouldn't have that. A GM needs to be neutral (see Teddy Long for an example), not partisan. The heel GM gimmick is long past stale and played out. Vicki has to go.

5. No, there must be a balance. In order to move in a new direction, WWE needs to even things out between faces & heels. Cutting Kennedy only made the situation worse than it was before.

[hobbyfan]

Maryse lost to Kelly last week by DQ.

I know that, Dan, and that was part of my point. She couldn't beat Kelly in a 1-on-1, but gets the duke in a tag match after Mickie's taken out of play? Excuse me, but that is wrong-headed writing.

[hobbyfan]

Also I forgot to mention this but I think Raw is face-heavy, not heel-heavy. Randy Orton and Big Show are the only two legit main event heels. Maybe it feels heel heavy because Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase are constantly doing stable vs one wrestler angles, but I don't consider those two major players yet. I wouldn't even call The Miz one yet either, considering he hasn't had a legit big feud match on PPV yet.

Wrong. It's heel heavy because of the administration running the show. A neutral GM will punish serial offenders like Legacy as best as able. As I replied to Hobbes, Vicki is getting more heat than even Orton, the current champ, and that defeats the whole purpose of Orton being the champ, IMPO.

[RedNinja84]

With MVP dropping the belt I wonder if they are going to give him a main event push. I don't mean as a challenger to Orton but start wrestling the bigger name guys. Maybe start him out against Big show to get him ready for the big time.

[Hobbes829]

1. In this case and context, it wasn't needed. Flair isn't a full-time guy anymore, and Orton already has more than enough heat as champion heading into Sunday's title fight vs. Batista.

2. They did a similar stunt with a "randomly selected opponent" on Smackdown a couple of times in the past. In both cases, Shannon Moore was selected to take beatings, first from Brock Lesnar, and in the 2nd instance, from JBL during his title run. Tweaking it by making Chavo a "randomly selected" partner for John Cena brought back those memories, because I suspect Chavo's name was the only one in the bag anyway, much like Moore in those other cases.

3. I'm worried that Kofi could end up being a transitional champion. They've since announced a 4-way for the US title for Sunday. Kofi vs. MVP vs. Regal vs. Hardy. Basically the same match as last week, but with MVP thrown in. Kofi has the skills, but certain on the creative staff keep giving him the short shrift.

4. As I've said before, Vicki has jumped the shark. She is getting more heat than Orton, and you shouldn't have that. A GM needs to be neutral (see Teddy Long for an example), not partisan. The heel GM gimmick is long past stale and played out. Vicki has to go.

5. No, there must be a balance. In order to move in a new direction, WWE needs to even things out between faces & heels. Cutting Kennedy only made the situation worse than it was before.

1. given the fact that a 60 year old retiree beat up orton, he needed as much heat as he could get. the ore heat the better. i dont get the idea of too much heat

2. Kofi hasn't been getting shorted. He's where he should be.

3. did they say random partner or "random" partner?

4. it's not her fault she gets heat. you don't get rid of someone like that. you just put her with someone where her heat can transfer to the wrestler. That's why she should be a manager.

5. Not everything has to be even.

[anime_guru]

Going to agree with the consensus. Best match of the night was kofi and mvp. Now I initially thought this would set up a rivalry between mvp and kofi but seeing kofi win almost gave me an aneurysm out of pure shock.

MVP IMO needs to be wwe champion. I think he has more than enough charisma, mic skills and fan support. I am really getting tired of the tirade of trips, cena, and now orton, and probably back to batista as champion. We definitely need some new blood for championship status and I think its time for MVP to get written in that direction.

I expect kofi to turn heel but I hope not. I really hope not. I like his wrestling and charisma. Now if only he could talk...