If "Batman Begins" gets a sequel....

[David64]

From what I heard, the Joker will be in the next Batman movie. So my question is, do you all want to see him paired up with Harley Quinn?

[Patrick Bateman]

A whopping 'NO'. Harley is a bubbly sidekick that should have stayed in animation. As soon as they brought her into comics, Joker's downhill slump of being lame began.

[Storm]

A whopping 'NO'. Harley is a bubbly sidekick that should have stayed in animation. As soon as they brought her into comics, Joker's downhill slump of being lame began.

*gasp*

Can't say I don't agree w/ BY1. I love Harley. I love her more when she's with Ivy though. Joker is superb when he acts alone. As for a Harley Quinn in the new Bat movies... hmmm, maybe. A small a cameo w/ Harley as Harleen Quinzel would add a nice touch leaving hope for any future developments.

- Fray

[TimTwoFace]

I say "YES", but not any time soon. I wouldn't mind seeing a doctor at Arkham Asylum named Harleen QUinzel introduced as a very minor fanservice background character in the next sequel or two. The character, when written well and not horribly overdone, is excellent.

That said, I don't want her right away. I'd rather see the Joker get an entire movie to himself as a solo adventure - right now rumours appear to suggest it'll be in "BATMAN 6" or "BATMAN 7" - and farther down the line, when he is reintroduced to the fold, then and ONLY then could you start thinking about Harley becoming a new villainous addition - and possibly just a one-picture deal when she gets killed at the end, too. That'd be something yet to be done with the character and could make her one criminal appearance all the more poignant.

There's a host of other characters - particularly villains - that should be used and, I think, are more deserving of an appearance in the new movie series than Harley Quinn is. Joker and Two-Face are already shoe-ins to be used in the next movie or two, Catwoman is all but confirmed, and there's a number or other villains that have yet to be used that can be brought in.

So, at this rate, if you consider Batman Begins to be "BATMAN 5", I wouldn't want to see Harley appearing as any more than an Arkham doctor any sooner than, say, "BATMAN 10".

-Tim

[James]

I'd rather keep Joker away from the franchise - and Harley. We've had so many quipping bigger than life characters in SuperHero movies and they tend to dominate or steal from the main characters.

We've seen Joker a hundred times, I don't think he needs to be visualised again. I think this Batman's more serious, real and sombre approach to the big screen should keep to characters which relate to that edgy drama. The counter relationship of Joker to Batman just ends up showcasing one more than the other.

Unless VERY well handled, the Joker should be kept out. He'd have to be a lot more serious than we see in the comics and cartoons. More sinister. He'd probably have to up the rating to be done well.

I don't think he should be paired up with a character which focuses on his extreme and silly qualities.

[Damien]

I wouldn't mind seeing Dr. Harleen Quinzel as a nod, but I'd rather not see a live-action Harley Quinn. At all.

As SJJ said, to keep these new franchise dark, we'd need a sinister Joker, which is really the best way to go. Simply put, I'd rather see the Joker who shot Sarah Essen in the head than the Joker who strapped Batman to a giant something-or-other. The Joker is evil, plain and simple. Apart from the comics, I don't think that's been accurately portrayed at all, except for what he did to Drake in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

[ManicWebb]

Like others have said, I wouldn't mind seeing Dr. Harleen Quinzel, but that's about as far as I'd be willing to take it. While we're talking about prison counselors, what if the next movie was about that one psychotic prison guard at Gotham's other prison? Seeing Batman deal with a criminal-fighter (as opposed to a crime-fighter) gone too far could give movie-goers an insight on Batman's policy of violence and how to deal with the criminally insane. We could see that Batman is serious, but not completely insane.

[Paul_Cousins]

I wouldn't mind seeing Dr. Harleen Quinzel as a nod, but I'd rather not see a live-action Harley Quinn. At all.

As SJJ said, to keep these new franchise dark, we'd need a sinister Joker, which is really the best way to go. Simply put, I'd rather see the Joker who shot Sarah Essen in the head than the Joker who strapped Batman to a giant something-or-other. The Joker is evil, plain and simple. Apart from the comics, I don't think that's been accurately portrayed at all, except for what he did to Drake in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

I disagree, DCAU Joker is the best Joker there is, he's not only evil, he's evil with style. He's a mad sadist genius. Plus even after over a decade of first hearing that insane Joker laugh that Mark Hamill can do, it still gives me chills. And Mark Hamill voice of the Joker is spot on near perfect in how in except Joker's voice to me.

Besides B.B. "Return of the Joker", Jokers two other most serious roles were B:TAS "Mask of the Phantasm". Justice League "Wild Cards".

I personally think the Joker was most dangerious in "Wild Cards", when, with his plan and help from the psychic girl Ace, he nearly drove 60 million people (the viewing audience of his Las Vegas Reality TV show, including most of the JL) literally insane.

Personally, after B:TAS, whenever I think of Joker, I think of Harley right beside him.

[Peter Paltridge]

I disagree, DCAU Joker is the best Joker there is, he's not only evil, he's evil with style. He's a mad sadist genius. Plus even after over a decade of first hearing that insane Joker laugh that Mark Hamill can do, it still gives me chills. And Mark Hamill voice of the Joker is spot on near perfect in how in except Joker's voice to me.

Personally, after B:TAS, whenever I think of Joker, I think of Harley right beside him.

I agree with all of that. The producers of B:TAS said they could have gone for a totally dark Joker, or a goofy wacky one, but they decided the best thing to do was to split the difference. It worked.
I'm not too keen on seeing a live-action Harley, even though I love Harley too. FYI, there has already been one. Harley was featured as the villain of a "Birds of Prey" episode, in her Harleen Quinzel form. The plot was that she was a psychiatrist, but she was hypnotizing people to do evil. Yeeah, sounds like a Harl crime...not. She was really out of character and not something I'd like to see on a larger screen.

[Web Head]

I disagree, DCAU Joker is the best Joker there is, he's not only evil, he's evil with style. He's a mad sadist genius. Plus even after over a decade of first hearing that insane Joker laugh that Mark Hamill can do, it still gives me chills. And Mark Hamill voice of the Joker is spot on near perfect in how in except Joker's voice to me.

Besides B.B. "Return of the Joker", Jokers two other most serious roles were B:TAS "Mask of the Phantasm". Justice League "Wild Cards".

I personally think the Joker was most dangerious in "Wild Cards", when, with his plan and help from the psychic girl Ace, he nearly drove 60 million people (the viewing audience of his Las Vegas Reality TV show, including most of the JL) literally insane.

Not to nit-pick on comics Joker vs DCAU Joker, but the comics version is by far more dangerous and has done more damage. He:

--killed Robin (beaten bloody with a crowbar and exploded)
--crippled Batgirl (and forced her dad to go though a funhouse maze of her beaten body)
--killed Sara Essen (Jim Gordon's wife, shot in the head)

Even if you count RotJ, the comics version still wins.

I will say, however, that Mark Hamill is the definitive voice of the Joker and has by far the best Joker laugh ever.

[Paul_Cousins]

Not to nit-pick on comics Joker vs DCAU Joker, but the comics version is by far more dangerous and has done more damage. He:

--killed Robin (beaten bloody with a crowbar and exploded)
--crippled Batgirl (and forced her dad to go though a funhouse maze of her beaten body)
--killed Sara Essen (Jim Gordon's wife, shot in the head)

Even if you count RotJ, the comics version still wins.

I will say, however, that Mark Hamill is the definitive voice of the Joker and has by far the best Joker laugh ever.

I disagree, the DCAU Joker is far more evil that the DC Comic Joker. DC Comic Joker killed Jason Todd (second Robin in the comics), while DCAU Joker tortured and brainwashed Tim Drake (second DCAU robin) to the point where he nearly became Joker Jr.

And I have even mentioned what the Joker did to Tim Drake in the B.B. future.

Also I will repeat this again, DCAU Joker nearly drove 60 million people literally insane.

DCAU Joker wins hands down.

[James]

I disagree, the DCAU Joker is far more evil that the DC Comic Joker. DC Comic Joker killed Jason Todd (second Robin in the comics), while DCAU Joker tortured and brainwashed Tim Drake (second DCAU robin) to the point where he nearly became Joker Jr.

And I have even mentioned what the Joker did to Tim Drake in the B.B. future.

Also I will repeat this again, DCAU Joker nearly drove 60 million people literally insane.

DCAU Joker wins hands down.

I think the difference for me is the comics Joker seems to have more self awareness of the pain he inflicts, while with DCAU Joker, death just seems trivial. People die, people are tortured.. more as if people are worth no more than animals.. or like a boy tortured a spider..

The comics Joker seems to relish the pain and misery on a more sophisticated level. I'm sure the difference simply comes from the mediums and the cartoon is restricted to how much realisation the Joker is allowed on TV when you are presented a mass homicidal murderer to kids. Best to keep even his killings fairly light.. they don't linger on what he does or the repercussions. ROTJ was the closest to comics Joker and even there there his interest in Batman and ruining his life seems more like a child teasing and bullying than the act of a sociapathic madman who has a deeper and darker nature to enjoying pleasure (or in some cases, not enjoying as in the death of Sarah Gordon).

Anyway, I digress. I love DCAU Joker. I won't say Hamill is definitive. I always think it's shortsighted to assume that NO ONE can do it better when so few have tried, but he's great.

However for a film, and the medium of cinema, I think the Joker would have to be toned down in his surreal abilities to make his world so bizarre and forced to adhere more to the world of Batman. Films with such eccentric characters have a tendency to cater more that eccentricity than the other characters and as such the film becomes unbalanced. "Batman" is an example of this. Joker - if he appears - cannot be allowed to alter the tone of the film, nor should he dominate. A more insidious and maybe distant form would be good.. like his first scene in ROTJ, where he plays the crimeboss in the shadows. Maybe that would be a better way to offer him to this more realistic Batman franchise.

[Patrick Bateman]

I disagree, the DCAU Joker is far more evil that the DC Comic Joker.

That seems a bit uneducated. Let me explain.

I don't see how that's possible. DCAU Joker is a watered-down version of the true Joker. Comic Joker shot and crippled Barbara Gordon infront of her father, held him hostage and made him look at pictures of her naked and bleeding all over the floor. He murdered Jason Todd. He shot Sarah Essen in the head point-blanke and then taunted Jim Gordon afterward, including mentioning the last member of his family he hadn't ruined. He's ended more lives than one can count. Tell me, how many people has the DCAU Joker actually KILLED? What, about 10?

[AceOfKnaves]

I disagree, the DCAU Joker is far more evil that the DC Comic Joker. DC Comic Joker killed Jason Todd (second Robin in the comics), while DCAU Joker tortured and brainwashed Tim Drake (second DCAU robin) to the point where he nearly became Joker Jr.

And I have even mentioned what the Joker did to Tim Drake in the B.B. future.

Also I will repeat this again, DCAU Joker nearly drove 60 million people literally insane.

DCAU Joker wins hands down.

Comic Joker didn't just "kill" Jason...the circumstances were a little more extreme than that. You can't say he just "killed Jason Todd", and then go into depth about what he did to Tim...
Jason's death was a little more brutal than what happened to Tim in the animated series, IMO.

What Joker did in ROTJ was yes, disturbing, but comic Joker would never hesitate to do the same thing...I mean, look what he did to Barb/Jim in Killing Joke.

Comic Joker, hands down, is much more sinister than Animated Joker. Not that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini didn't have the ability to write him that way...it was just...they COULDN'T. You can't aim what Joker REALLY is to little kids...they wouldn't sleep at night.


~Selena~

[Tobias]

I'd like to see Harley at some point, but not as the main villain. Just a quick adventure to start the movie, have her out in twenty minutes.

And I agree, the comics Joker is the most evil of his incarnations. What put him over the top as the most evil version in my mind was what he did in 'Rock of Ages'.

Spoiler:

After a faux JLA massacred a bunch of people, including several kids, Joker spring loaded the children's coffin's to burst open during the funeral so they'd be sent flying into the air. It happened off panel, but still, the thought of it is VERY disturbing.

Then there's the afore mentioned shooting/rape of Barbara Gordon, the death of Gordon's wife, and the murder of Jason Todd (and his mother).

And didn't the Joker also at one point unleash a demon from hell to take out Batman?

[James]

Then there's the afore mentioned shooting/rape of Barbara Gordon, the death of Gordon's wife, and the murder of Jason Todd (and his mother).

And didn't the Joker also at one point unleash a demon from hell to take out Batman?

Sorry, a little OT, but did Joker rape Gordon? I never got the impression he did, merely took the photos in an attempt to drive Jim insane. He never struck me as being overtly sexual either for lust or power in comics or cartoon.

If we are comparing comic and cartoon on the basis of a film sequel, we might as well get the list of crimes as accurate as possible!

[AceOfKnaves]

lol, I agree, I don't think he did in fact rape her, just undressed her and put it on display for daddy.
I too don't see him as the sexual type, his mind hasn't ever really operated on attraction (before Harley...which is a mixed topic for me ), for the most part it's about causing disturbing and creative deaths among his fellow people, and jokes that only a psychopath such as himself could find funny.

I would agree with what SJJ said above though about him not being the main focus of the movie. A villain, no matter how much some people like him :anime:, shouldn't be the center of attention in a movie titled after the hero. Keep it about Bruce, with Joker as a subplot, and you've got me hooked.

As long as it's a good story, that is.


~Selena~

[The Master Con]

If the Joker would appear in the newer films he would have to not only be aware of the pain he inflects but also enjoy it. To his core the Joker is a mass murder, seeking the pain in others to pass his own pleasures. Each act committed in such harsh ways that he seeks to make your very destruction a joke. He must be handled and protrayed as a serial killer as opposed to costumed villain. I'd hate to see him used as a counter character to Batman's own darkness.

[TimTwoFace]

If the Joker would appear in the newer films he would have to not only be aware of the pain he inflects but also enjoy it. To his core the Joker is a mass murder, seeking the pain in others to pass his own pleasures. Each act committed in such harsh ways that he seeks to make your very destruction a joke. He must be handled and protrayed as a serial killer as opposed to costumed villain. I'd hate to see him used as a counter character to Batman's own darkness.

Actually, I think that a mix of all those elements are what would be necessary. Jack Nicholson's portrayal in BATMAN was excellent at the time, but after seeing Mark Hamill's more chilling and controlled performances in BTAS, Nicholson's portrayal is pale in comparison; regardless, it was a good base for the character. Mix both the movie Joker and the BTAS Joker and you'll have a good mix.

That said, I don't want to see an absolute loon on screen that is laughing hysterically for two hours - that gets boring. Finding a happy balance been the exuberant insanity and the colder, calculating aspects of the character is key. There should be humour present, either light and chippy or dark and twisted - but there should be a balance, a method to his madness. If the Joker is turned into just another serial killer with no flair, then you might as well not use him at all - he is supposed to be larger than life. If you want just a serial killer with a sick mind, stick with someone like Mr. Zsasz, instead.

Anyway, if we get a more adult version of Mark Hamill's portrayal - but one that still, in instances, has a sense of light-hearted fun - then I'd be happy.

-Tim

[rrarbecy]

Going to animation, the JL Joker is far more sinister than the BTAS Joker and the GK Joker. Not only in personality(as demonstrated before), but in appearance. The more sunken eyes, darker lips and gums, and the more hunched posture make him the consumate Joker.

Tobias, if the Joker really springloaded the kids' coffins, he's even more disturbed than I thought.