"Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicles" Series Talkback (Spoilers)

[William C. Maune]

After having talkbacks posted for all the canon Gargoyles episodes, it only makes sense to do one for...

Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicles

The episode list is below and I'll share my thoughts soon!

66. The Journey
67. Ransom
68. Runaways
69. Broadway Goes Hollywood
70. A Bronx Tail
71. The Dying Of The Light
72. And Justice For All
73. Genesis Undone
74. Generations
75. ...For It May Come True
76. To Serve Mankind
77. Seeing Isn’t Believing
78. Angels In The Night

[I.R Joey]

As some of you may know I finally got the chance to become a regualr Gargoyle viewer as of this semester. I had heard so many horrible things about TGC that I was dreading the end of Hunter's Moon. We all of course know that series creator Greg Weisman ended his run on the show with the first episode "The Journey." Thus the next twelve episodes are not considered cannon, but I still don't think that makes them bad. Sure there were some horrible things about it (animation got worse, that horrible intro etc) but there were some perfectly admirable things about the Goliath Chronichles.

+I liked the fact that they had Goliath opening with a little speech in every episode. I felt it helped with foreshadowing the episode's story.
+The idea of the Quarrymen was an interesting one that perhaps could have used more development (at points they were like Hunters-lite without the deep backstory).
+I totally bought Xanatos and Fox being the Gargoyles human protectors. Their charecter arc, IE becoming good, made total sense to me in the light of the events in The Gathering and Hunter's Moon.

Let me give some brief statements about each of the episodes.

The Journey: Suprisingly I didn't much care for this episode. I think it was the fact that coming off of Hunter's moon, this episode seemed a bit dull. It did however elaborate on the wonderful new dynamic between the Xanatos family and the Gargoyles. Also liked the apperance of the guy who kept getting his life messed up by the Gargoyles in the previous seasons.

Ransom: This episode had alot of solid drama in it, Lex's bond with Alex was actually pretty touching. As was Elisa's attempt to save him.

Runaways: This thing was just a big after school special, hated it.

Broadway goes to Hollywood: I thought for sure that I was going to hate this episode when I heard the title but oddly enough it was okay. Broadway had a very legitamite reason for getting infront of the camera, and we finally got to see Fox interact with her former teamates Jackal and Hyena post marrige/pregnancy/change of heart. Plus we got to see how wide spread the Quarrymen's influence was.

A Bronx tale: I was never to big on Bronx focused episodes, but this one was alright. Quite frakly in tone it seemed much more fit for The World Tour arc than TGC, but oh well. I liked the angle of the Amish kid trying to figure out Bronx.

The Dying of the light: A very powerful episode that dealt with Hudson's pride/feelings of inadequecey just like some of the wonderful stand alone episodes in season 1 and 2 (Lighthouse in a sea of time, and A Long way to Morning). We also saw the return of his friend Mr. Robins who had been MIA for some time. I especially liked how Mr. Robins knew what Hudson was and called him on suspecting him of being a bigot. This episode also helped us see that there were groups of humans actively trying to secure peace with the gargoyles.

And Justice For all: Like the previous episode this one demonstrated that there were people in the world willing to try to understand the Gargoyles. I really liked the lawyer charecter in this one. I also liked the idea that Goliath was willing to stand trial, totally in charecter.

Genesis undone: An alright episode, at least we got to see Talon again. It's a shame that he's the only member of the Elisa's family we saw in TGC.

Generations: Angela was behaving much to foolishly here. I mean sweatheart we know Demona is your mommy and everything, but if you haven't realized by now that she's not going to change than you're just being foolish. I mean after all the last time you saw her she, ya know ATTEMPTED TO ERADICATE THE ENTIRE HUMAN POPULATION OF THE PLANET!!! It was just to much for me to believe.

For it May come true: I love what if story's, Future Tense was one of my favorite episodes of the whole Gargoyles series original or TGC. I also liked this one, because it kind of showed Goliath's impact on the people he's met. Plus it sort of dealt with the romance between Elisa and Goliath (though abstractly) which was something sort of missing in alot of TGC. Also liked Tatania's advice to Goliath.

To serve Mankind: This was a pretty strong episode as it featured The Illuminati which I always found interesting. I really liked the idea of them creating wars for their own benefit, and I loved how Xanatos used his influence to help the Gargoyles. I love pacifist heros so I found Egon Pax to be interesting. The one big flaw in this episode was the way Matt Bluestone was used. He got in on the Illluminati's plots quite a while before, so he should have known what was going on.

Seeing isn't believng: The New Olympians is one of my favorite episodes of the World Tour arc. I just thought the whole idea of a secret island hidden from the rest of the world was interesting. That being said I didn't much care for this episode. By it's end it had resorted to the common shape shifter cliche of "No I'm the real one!" that is so commen in action cartoons.

Angels in the Night:Cool episode, we got to see Xanatos using his cunning, people changing their opinions about Gargoyles, and some other pretty cool things. I feel that this episode also served as a pretty cool finale for not only TGC, but Gargoyles itself. Weisman had more stories planned mind you, and there are still tales that could be told, but I'm okay with this too. The one big plot hole though is how the head Quarryman got out of jail so quickly after Ransom.

So those are my thoughts. True TGC never reached the dramatic heights that the original Gargoyles did (especially in some multi-parters and episodes like Future Tense), but then again I liked certain episodes of TGC way more than some episodes of the original (Monster's was horrid, and I never cared for many of the Cold Stone episodes).

So those are my thoughts, I know they're not popular but they are what they are.

[The Weed Of Cri]

I agree with you up to a point. I don't think The Goliath Chronicles was the unmitigated disaster that so many of the show's fans make it out to be. Some of the episodes were weak: For It May Come True and To Serve Mankind were just rehashes of It's A Wonderful Life and The Manchurian Candidate. Runaway was a misfire: after Brooklyn had proved his worth to be named Goliath's second-in-command in the previous season, to see him acting so immature and irresponsible seemed like a step backwards. And Bronx Tale was just silly to me: I've lived my whole life 50 miles from Amish country, and I can assure you there are no roving wolf packs in Eastern Pennsylvania. But there were many bright spots, too. I liked the development of Xanatos in these episodes; in Ransom, To Serve Mankind, and Angels In The Night it showed that, just because he was no longer a villian, he still wasn't ready to be measured for a halo. The Dying of the Light is one of my favorite episodes; the use of a real, and fairly commonplace disease (glaucoma) to drive the plot gave the show a nice touch of realism. And I thought Angels In The Night gave the series a much more satisfying sense of closure than Hunter's Moon. By the end of Angels, the Gargoyles had come full circle from where they had started: they were no longer urban legend/suspected menace, but had once again become publicly known and acknowledged (at least by some) as protectors.

[GregX]

Well, all I have to say is, at long last, starting next month, the REAL third season is finally coming.

[RogueFanKC]

Actually, you're not alone in this; I too think that TGC are decent and SHOULD be considered canon. Yes, though Weisman didn't have a direct hand in this series, what I liked was that it offered a lot of future plots from the open ending and call me a sucker for happy conclusions, but I was immensely glad to see that people are starting to warm up to the Gargoyles now.

True, we would still have the Quarrymen and Demona out on the loose as well as other enemies who would like to see the Gargoyles dead, but it's still a good ending that leaves us somewhat satisfied.

Now, compared to Seasons 1 and 2, this was the worst, no question. However, on its own, I feel that it is a good series nonetheless, and as much as the fans want to try to deny it, TGC is part of Gargoyles canon.

However, I am thoroughly interested to see how the comics fare out.

[GregX]

I feel that it is a good series nonetheless, and as much as the fans want to try to deny it, TGC is part of Gargoyles canon.

Greg Weisman, you know, that guy who created the series and these characters, says you're wrong. Unless you've become more of an authority on "Gargoyles" than he is, and no one told us.

And, when it comes down to it, as it is his show, and these are his characters. He gets to decide what's canon and what's not. And good for him to finally be able to kick it to the curb with new, official canon stories.

[RogueFanKC]

Greg Weisman, you know, that guy who created the series and these characters, says you're wrong. Unless you've become more of an authority on "Gargoyles" than he is, and no one told us.

Ah, my fault then; I thought that because the series were produced, they are automatically a part of canon for the Gargoyles. I take it back with sincere apologies to Weisman.

Still, I do like TGC, however.

[Simpler Simon]

Greg Weisman, you know, that guy who created the series and these characters, says you're wrong. Unless you've become more of an authority on "Gargoyles" than he is, and no one told us.

I always found that a really arrogant statement. Granted if I did a TV series and someone took it in a direction that didn't agree with me, I'd also want to continue it my own way. And it's definitely a great thing that after so long, he finally has a chance to do that. Not many creators do.

But it seems..."impolite" (and I'm using that word carefully) for him to outright discard those 12 episodes. There's a bunch of PR spins he could've given the comics (like "my preferred canon," "my original vision") without trashing TGC. Look at Peter Laird for example, who suffered through several mainstream interpretations of the Ninja Turtles that completely went against his original vision, until he was finally able to get it right with the current series. Yet all of them are part of the TMNT legacy.

Anyways, I liked about half of TGC. Some interesting ideas that could've been better developed along with a few moralizing stinkers, but nothing so damaging that it couldn't be repaired and stuck back in continuity.

[I.R Joey]

Actually, you're not alone in this; I too think that TGC are decent and SHOULD be considered canon. Yes, though Weisman didn't have a direct hand in this series, what I liked was that it offered a lot of future plots from the open ending and call me a sucker for happy conclusions, but I was immensely glad to see that people are starting to warm up to the Gargoyles now.

True, we would still have the Quarrymen and Demona out on the loose as well as other enemies who would like to see the Gargoyles dead, but it's still a good ending that leaves us somewhat satisfied.

Now, compared to Seasons 1 and 2, this was the worst, no question. However, on its own, I feel that it is a good series nonetheless, and as much as the fans want to try to deny it, TGC is part of Gargoyles canon.

However, I am thoroughly interested to see how the comics fare out.

Well that's what I'm saying too, there are many story's in the Goliath chronichles that are on such a small scale that they could be grafted right into the canon wth little problem. Is there anything in Mr. Weisman's plan that was contradicted by TGC?

[GregX]

Is there anything in Mr. Weisman's plan that was contradicted by TGC?

Plenty.

1. That true acceptance is a lot more difficult to attain than simply saving a train. It would take years, hell, it would take decades for them to be merely tolerated. True acceptance is a long, long way off.

2. Goliath's trial, where literally, the debate would be his very sentience. Not something stupid like knocking over a jewelry store. He equated Margot bringing him into a court room in that episode with bringing a couger into a court room.

3. John Castaway being a new alias for the fugitive Jon Canmore. TGC made him an industrialist who just hated Gargoyles.

4. Thailog being alive and well, and becoming the Manhattan Clan's new main villain.

5. Demona teaming up with the Quarrymen in TGC. Would never have happened under Greg's pen. Demona would never work with the Hunter and the Hunter would never work with her.

6. Killing off the clones. Greg planned to develop them, especially Delilah, into well rounded characters of their own.

7. The Quarrymen becoming a mere street gang, and knowing that gargoyles protect people... i.e. setting up traps where it seems innocent people are in danger. In TGC, they hated the gargoyles for no reason. Greg planned for a majority of the Quarrymen to be ordinary scared and frightened people. Their hatred formed from fear and ignorance.

8. Xanatos becoming a goodie two-shoes and the gargoyles' buddy. Yes, he felt he owed them for saving his son's life, but he still only rescued them and allowed them to move into the castle because it benefitted him. Xanatos was going to stay a ruthless, amoral businessman. And he and Goliath weren't going to be a buddies for a very long time. In a way, Goliath would be feeling like he's made a deal with the devil for his clan's protection. Xanatos would still be willing to manipulate them and use them for his own ends as he saw fit.

I could post more, but basically, TGC took a well crafted, intelligent and sophisticated animated series and turned it into the worst example of a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

[GregX]

Well that's what I'm saying too, there are many story's in the Goliath chronichles that are on such a small scale that they could be grafted right into the canon wth little problem. Is there anything in Mr. Weisman's plan that was contradicted by TGC?

1. The so-called THIRD SEASON OF GARGOYLES is now in the works... in comic book form. The folks at creaturecomics.com, SLG Publishing and Disney have teamed up to put out the new book with original canon stories due to hit the stands in June 2006.
2. I'm choosing to ignore the Goliath Chronicles in the comic book. The

justification is that ... is that... well, heck, do I really NEED a justification?

- Greg Weisman.

And the first four issues at least have already been written. TGC is out, too late for him to change his mind, even if he wanted to.

TGC is dead. Long live the real third season!

[RickWJ324]

I watched Gargoyles religiously when it aired. Unfortunately when it moved to ABC as TGC, my ABC affiliate didn't air it! To date, I've never seen this series. I've heard terrible things about it, but I'm still looking forward to watching them on dvd so I can judge for myself. Has there been any announcement on if/when TGC will be released?

I'm also looking forward to the comic!!

--Rick

[GregX]

I watched Gargoyles religiously when it aired. Unfortunately when it moved to ABC as TGC, my ABC affiliate didn't air it! To date, I've never seen this series. I've heard terrible things about it, but I'm still looking forward to watching them on dvd so I can judge for myself. Has there been any announcement on if/when TGC will be released?

I'm also looking forward to the comic!!

--Rick

At this point, we should be more concerned about the second half of season 2 getting an announcement.

[HellCat]

At this point, we should be more concerned about the second half of season 2 getting an announcement.

I was just about to ask about that. I doubt at this point buying the existing sets will help any? I would have supported the show sooner but money is generally in short supply for me.

[GregX]

I was just about to ask about that. I doubt at this point buying the existing sets will help any? I would have supported the show sooner but money is generally in short supply for me.

I'm hoping an official announcement of some kind (whether it's a greenlight or not) comes soon.

[Undrave]

I was just about to ask about that. I doubt at this point buying the existing sets will help any? I would have supported the show sooner but money is generally in short supply for me.

Actually it's suppose to help. You should convince as many people as you can to buy the sets!!

[HellCat]

Actually it's suppose to help. You should convince as many people as you can to buy the sets!!

What happens if I don't?

*knock on door, answers it. Greg Weisman punches HellCat in the face*

....Fetch my credit card

[GregX]

LOL, Greg wouldn't do that? Have you ever seen him? He's a short, skinny guy.

I could take him in a fight

[Undrave]

But on the other hand if you DO buy them he might send you chocolate as thank XD

[Ian]

Look at Peter Laird for example, who suffered through several mainstream interpretations of the Ninja Turtles that completely went against his original vision, until he was finally able to get it right with the current series. Yet all of them are part of the TMNT legacy.

Actually, Simon, I'd say this is a really bad example, seeing as Laird has done the same thing as Weisman: when re-launching the Mirage TMNT in 2001, he chose to disregard the previous Image run, which had hiertho been canon. Not only that, I really don't think the examples are really all that comparable: with TMNT, Eastman, Laird, and the rest of Mirage could always separate "their" stuff--the Mirage books--from the liscenced stuff; even if the rest of the stuff sucked, they had their book where they could do what they wanted. Here, it's all supposed to be one universe, so if Weisman wants to tell his stories without contrived reversals, he pretty much has no choice but to disregard.

By the way, has the June release date for the comic book been confirmed? I've been searching Previews for the last couple of months for news on the comic, and...nada.