WORLD'S FINEST - Fresh Question #28: Human or Monster?

[Nightwing]

Pull up a comfy cozy new TZ styled chair, heroes and villains, it's new Fresh Question time. Specifically, put on your Justice League thinking caps. Reeaady, 1 2 3 4 GO!

As a fan of the Animated Bat for over a decade, a lightning bolt of inspiration struck me as I watched Harley smack Batman after speaking ill of The Joker in JL's "Wild Card." At that moment, Harley's disgust of Batman and blind devotion to Joker made her previous animated life passed through my head. Harley felt completely gone in JL, while remembering her more human moments in BTAS episodes like "Harley's Holiday" got me thinking, which brings up my question:

Which of a Batman (or other) character's persona do you favor, the monster/villain that they have become, or the human that they once were and may still be capable of being??


It just breaks my heart to see how she was almost saved those years ago, only to give in to her obsession for the Joker....

[Cyber E.]

Yo,

The key factor that makes Batman brilliant is, as always, the fact that he fights his enemies with his mind more so than his gadgets or fists. He must know their patterns, diverse plans to beat them by using their own strengths and weaknesses to his very advantage. Its always the Good vs. Evil match we all have come to known of.

But what happens when it isn't Good vs. Evil, and the colors that were merely black and white before have become gray? Once a well-known district attorney of Gotham, Harvey Dent had it all. But after one horrible night the inner demons inside him were unleashed and forever changed his life. He was one of the few good men left in Gotham that could actually make it better, and now he is one of the many evil-doers that are trying to do the exact opposite.

Two-Face does evil things. He is psychotic in the way that he lets his coin make his decisions for him. Its a split personality disorder gone haywire. But what makes Two-Face more interesting and diverse than the rest of psychos and terrorists? He was once Harvey Dent, good friend to Bruce Wayne and now one of his worst enemies.

The fact that Harvey was once human like the rest of us, but because of one single incident has been forever changed, adds an unlimited amount of depth to the character and makes them more interesting. Its especially enjoyable when they play on the fact that no matter how much the character has evolved and grown, there is still that one fiber of humanity left in them.

The monster trait can sometimes work better than humanity for some characters. Take Harley Quinn for example. Once, Harleen Quinzel was one of the most respected doctors in Gotham City... she was also sane at the time. But after meeting the worst of the worst, her life took a 360º spin. She evolved into such a different person than she originally was that you take interest into her, even though she isn't very interesting.

Neither side is better than the other. The humanity shows the character is still what he or she used to be. The fact that after all is said and done, there is still that one chance that one life can be changed for the better. It never actually happens in the shows, but the possibility is all we ever need.

The monster shows that character isn't at a standstill. They are still growing as people and isn't held down by certain attributes that would otherwise make the character less exciting than their full potential. Its win-win for everyone.

At least, thats my opinion.
-Cyber

[Barb Gordon]

Wow, lovely and well written thoughts Cyber. Hmmm, good question Nighty, lol, as they all are!
There are some characters, let's say Joker for instance, where no matter how I look at him, he's a monster in so many ways through and through. But there are others, like Harvey and Harley who have so many human traits to them still. Harley is a psycho, she's very messed up indeed. But she is so very human in her love and utter blind devotion for Joker and in wanting to please him. Harvey can kill and be cruel, but he still wrestles within himself over just who he is and what he does. I think one character who is forgotten, at least by me, is Matt Hagen/Clayface. Obviously perhaps the least human looking physically then most other characters, he still isn't as complete a monster as I consider the Joker to be. Hagen was an actor, a regular guy. He didn't wrestle with a multiple personality like Harvey, or with being insane like Joker, etc. He had a horrible thing occur to him that took away everything that he was and all he wanted to be, an actor. He commits acts of crime now, and he's a villain, yet I still remember the episodes, especially in BTAS, where he was still so human underneath it all - no pun intended.

~Barb

[Nick K.]

I believe Harvey Dent and Selina Kyle are perfect examples.

I feel a sort of remorse myself for Harvey's dilemma and how his life took a turn for the worse when he became Two-Face. Even his personality was starting to negatively effect him. And he was a good guy, defender of Gotham, friends with Bruce, had a fiance. It just sad.

As for Selina, Ive always liked the idea of her and Bruce as love interests for eachother. If she could just stop stealing! I hope that BB DTV comes out where Selina and Bruce (Older Versions) meet. If she ends up with him it'll be a well deserved happy ending for Bruce. How could they leave him as a lonely old man? How?

[screw on head]

for me, joker's the least human of batman's rogues gallery, he's like the boogie man. dini explores that idea pretty throroughly in batman animated, i feel like i'm about riff off what he said in that article, but harley brings out this whole other side of the joker that's just genius. that's about as human as i want to see him, watching his little spats and interplay between the two.
i don't want to know what he was like back when he was a hitman, i'd rather not think of a time when he was nearly human. that monster side of joker is so much more intriguing. harley, however, i really enjoy when she opens up to someone, like to batman. she's often manipulated by batman, sure, but i love delving into what a twisted relationship she's committed to with mr. j.

mr. freeze has my favorite mix of [man] and monster. there's something very human about freeze. i'll get to tnba in a sec, but i'm talking pre-cold comfort at the moment. it's tragic, his love for nora that really resonates for me. heart of ice showed that, i love how tragic his character is. behind the freeze suit and the spectacle, there's this tortured human being, not some monster, that's what's appealing to me. when we see freeze in cold comfort, nora's revived and doesn't want anything to do with him. she married her doctor, and the one thing that freeze was living for had abandoned him. he feels scorned, that little bit of hope that they'd be together again is gone, and he devotes his life to something else, he's on rebound. he becomes devoted to taking away from others their happiness, but when it boils down, he's on a temper tantrum. his object of desire is gone, his body is gone, he's now only a severed head, he's down and out, so he goes off picking on others. i like the idea that now he truly can't touch or feel with own hands, he's left with a cold robot extension of himself. it's like fate called his bluff, ensuring that he can truly be cold and detatched forever. meltdown was a great exercise in what could be, but in true tragic fashion, he loses his last touch with outside world again. the immortality, the freeze guns, all frail in comparison to the infinately interesting human drive of mr. freeze.

[murmur]

To some extent, it's like asking whether the nuts or the bolts are more important. You need both. But I suppose there are characters who were never all that human to begin with, which can be just as interesting. Clayface is a good example. When Matt Hagen was an actor, he was a self-centered jackass that would do anything for his image. Mind you, I still feel bad for him when I watch him get deluged with toxic chemicals, because that's a tragedy no matter who it happens to. And perhaps the most poetic aspect of his attempt to regain his form in "Mudslide" is that his bitter selfish inside will never get better.

BTW, I don't think Harley is so lost. She is the most fickle of the Batman characters, in many ways more a wild card than her more famous counterpart. Joker will always have some influence on her when he is in the story, but she has the potential to shine on her own for good or ill. "Harley's Holiday" could happen again.

[Eddie G.]

I think a recent issue of Batman enforces my view on his rogue gallery. Batman was talking about Killer Croc: "Waylon Killer Croc Jones, the nick name was more than a reputation. Sure if he was a killer, stone cold homocide was his stock in trade. But if he grew strawberries odds are they'd call him Farmer Croc or if he were a pro-bowler, he'd be Ally Gator"

Sure we can feel bad for Killer Croc, he's cursed by being ugly, a freak of nature. And no matter what this would be true, no matter what he did. But he made the choice to kill, he made the choice to be a murderer. You can cry for Mr. Freeze who his tormented with loss or Catwoman trying so hard to redeem herself. But Catwoman, no matter how you cut it made a choice to be a theif as Freeze has made a choice to kill. Sure there are exceptions like Two Face who are controled by a completly other person. But even Harley Quinn who was driven insane by the Joker has some responsibility for what she does. As much as the Joker twisted her, she twisted herself.

In the end most of these people are victims of the dark joke called life. But in the end they had as much hand in becoming these monsters as destiny and circumstance did. Or as Batman once said to the Joker, "Maybe ordinary people don't always crack. Maybe there isn't a need to climb under a rock with all of the other slimy things when trouble hits. Maybe it was just you all the time."

In the end I think pure monster and humane villians have their pros and few cons. The Two Face personality, Joker, Ra's Al Ghul are great villians who show little humanity. While Catwoman, Clayface, and Mr. Freeze are great too. In the end one is not better than the other, because they're completly different types of characters.

[David the Joker]

In the end most of these people are victims of the dark joke called life. But in the end they had as much hand in becoming these monsters as destiny and circumstance did. Or as Batman once said to the Joker, "Maybe ordinary people don't always crack. Maybe there isn't a need to climb under a rock with all of the other slimy things when trouble hits. Maybe it was just you all the time."

That quote is awesome and perfectly summed up the Joker, which of course as all Batman and Joker fans know comes from "the Killing Joke". He is my favorite monster, because simply put he snapped. He saw how awful the world was and couldnt take it. Before he became the Joker, his previous self was the everyman, down on his luck and depressed. That novel put Joker in perceptive of the man he was and how Batman could have easy fall deeper into the darkness like the Joker. Being the monster, makes the Joker unpredictable and sometimes unstoppable, on some adventures Batman has to go down to his thinking to defeat the Clown Prince of Crime. I think Paul Dini and the other writers of Batman Animated made Joker's previous self "Jack Napier", which was interesting, a criminal, because in my opinion it shows that Joker was still the same man he was as Jack but more twisted.

The other choices other members chosen such as Freeze, Harley Quinn, and Two-Face are very interesting characters with the monster/human side. Each one of them teaches Batman lifes lessions or should I say on psyological levels, which makes the Dark Knight a much wiser person, when dealing with people.

[TimTwoFace]

I think that the best Bat-villains are the characters that are both man and monster. People that do horrible, dastardly, evil things, but do so not just to be bad people (as "generic bad guys" do) but, rather, to further their own cause that they believe in with all their heart.

Two-Face is the most obvious example of this - there IS a good side to him, not all of which has been left in the past, but he is driven by the demons inside to become a monster should the coin choose. Hell, he's still pretty nasty before the coin even comes into play.

Clayface is another good example of a good guy whose life spiralled downwards - the obsession with the Renu-U drug was totally of his own making, but the fact that he turned into Clayface was tragic because that wasn't his fault.

Mr. Freeze - a monster with heart. He does horrible, horrible things, but only because of the love he holds for his wife. That's what makes him such a deep character - possibly a bit one-dimensional for repeated viewing, but still deep nonetheless.

Harley Quinn - I wouldn't necessarily put her in a "monster" category, but she's definitely a good girl (more or less) that found herself on the wrong side of the law.

Catwoman - also not really a "monster" of sorts either, as a lot of her heroic (or anti-heroic) attributes shine through. She doesn't do things to hurt the innocent, she does have her own set of morals. An interesting character to be sure, but not really a monster by any means.

Mad Hatter - he's a monster because of how he manipulates the minds of everyone, which is about as personal a violation as it can get. And why does he do it? Because he's too shy and insecure to do anything on his own - so he relies on his gadgetry to get his way. It's sad, it's sympathetic, but really disturbing, too.

Ra's al Ghul - He's a wicked man that wants to destroy the world and recreate it in his own image. Considering the murder of over two billion people and not even batting an eyelash? That's pretty monsterific right there. But, at the same time, some of his ideals are actually of a noble nature - he's just going about realizing them in a very, very wrong way.

Joker - definitely a monster, that's for damn sure, but does he have a sympathetic side? Harley would sure seem to think so, but I just can't. If we ever get more of his past - one that doesn't portray him as a hitman and gangster - maybe I'd be more inclined to sympathize with him somehow. But for now, he's a monster - and a very entertaining one at that.

-Tim