Joker=wuss?

[Xtreme557]

I was watching different episodes (BTAS and TNBA) and noticed after the show changed so did Joker's attitude. In fact the only time he wasn't a wimp in a TNBA ep. was in "Mad Love" and the was writen during BTAS. At least he was back to his old self in BB:ROTJ, hopes he stays that way in JL.

[TerryMcGuiness]

He was never a wuss.

Its just that not *every* story with the Joker in it has to be a psychotic murder thing. The Joker doesn't begin and end with Frank Miller.

Dini, Timm and co. basically ran the gamut of the kinds of stories you can do with the character and were able to tap into everything from Laughing Fish to Dick Sprangs Joker to even a touch of Ceaser Romero from the 60's show, to the Killing Joke (as seen in ROTJ which for my money kicks the crap out of Killing Joke because it actually had the balls to end with some hope.)

[DR. BELCH]

--psychotic...obsessive...hateful...domineering...a prime candidate for antisocial personality disorder...perhaps cowardly at times, choosing weak victims like Charlie (the man he called his "hobby" after a fateful meeting on a highway) or his long-suffering mistress Harley. But hardly a wuss. I've often said he's Manson with the face of a clown, and that's how I'll always see him.

[James Harvey]

Moore said it best that the Joker's actions make sense to him alone. That could mean whether he actsd like a wimp, or tries to fight it out. He knows he can't beat Batman, but that doesn't mean he won't try.

[Xtreme557]

You guys are missing my point, I'm not saying he's a wuss. Just that when the show became TNBA that he was taken down a notch. Just watch the Laughing Fish or Joker's Favor and then watch the Joker's Millions, when the show became TNBA Joker became watered down.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Xtreme557
You guys are missing my point, I'm not saying he's a wuss. Just that when the show became TNBA that he was taken down a notch. Just watch the Laughing Fish or Joker's Favor and then watch the Joker's Millions, when the show became TNBA Joker became watered down.

The funny thing is, both Laughing Fish and Joker's Millions were adaptation of comic stories that were done in the comics many, many years ago. I'm not sure they intentionally meant to change the Joker's atittude - it was just the way he acted in the comics that were adapted, and that came through in the animated adaptations.

[Xtreme557]

The funny thing is, both Laughing Fish and Joker's Millions were adaptation of comic stories that were done in the comics many, many years ago. I'm not sure they intentionally meant to change the Joker's atittude - it was just the way he acted in the comics that were adapted, and that came through in the animated adaptations.

Yes I know that, but even in orignal episodes this is noticable. Joker's Favor and World's Finest for example.

[Nightwing]

I do agree the ratio of true joker psychotic episodes to lighter episodes tilts in favor of the lighter ones in TNBA, but I don't really see much behind it. World's Finest and Mad Love were excellent, but sometimes you'll get Joker's Millions (a funny romp where Paul Dini auditions to be the new Harley) or Beware The Creeper.

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Xtreme557
You guys are missing my point, I'm not saying he's a wuss. Just that when the show became TNBA that he was taken down a notch. Just watch the Laughing Fish or Joker's Favor and then watch the Joker's Millions, when the show became TNBA Joker became watered down.

To be honest, I thought that the Joker came off as watered down in pretty much all of his episodes. Because he's "a nameless criminal" we can't be privy to his motivations like we are to those of Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, or anyone else in Batman's rogues gallery so we lose that added depth from his character. One of the only ways to make the Joker more interesting is by making his crimes more horrific--to allow him to be truer to his chaotic nature--but the limitations of T.V. work against us here. True, his relationship with Harley Quinn helped broaden his character a bit, but we never really saw the Joker at his worst.

Okay, scratch that. We got to see the Joker working at his full potential twice--in Mask of the Phantasm and, to a lesser extent, in the World's Finest three-parter (I never did see Return of the Joker, so I can't comment on it).

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Karkull
Because he's "a nameless criminal" we can't be privy to his motivations like we are to those of Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, or anyone else in Batman's rogues gallery so we lose that added depth from his character.

I think you nail it here. The Joker has always been more of a "conceit" than a character, a grinning face whose mind and motives are impenetrable because he has no settled "history" the way the others do. So the comics have had just as hard a time dealing with him as have the movies and TV shows. The early Joker was strikingly humorless (his disembodied voice emanating from the radio is described as "monotone" I believe) and has none of the intimations of prankishness. He was more like Dr. Sardonicus, a man whose features were twisted into something that only resembled a smile, and who used that as a calling card with his own crimes, but who did not adopt any particular "psychology" to go with the face.

Later he became a jokester, and his face and smile were those of a clown-turned-killer. That was the defining image for a long time, especially in the Sixties. O'Neil, in "The Joker's Five Way Revenge" brought him back somewhat to the original vision, as a cold-eyed killer and gangland boss, but even then couldn't resist associating him with "gags" like exploding cigars. That's what he continues to be--a man who distributes exploding whoopee cushions, and the joke will always, to some extent, soften the impact of the crime.

My sense is that, to emerge as a true monster, the Joker would have to forgo the entire "schtick" associated with clowns and comedy, and deny his victims even the perverted jokes. To be blunt, I've often felt that any time the Joker made a wisecrack or pulled a prank, he was being "lightened", and that there is merely a difference of degree and not of kind between "Joker's Favor" and "Joker's Millions." (Granted, it's a wide degree.)

My nightmare Joker would much more closely resemble Dracula: a ghostly white figure emerging from the darkness, whose grin connotes the baring of fangs (not the curl of a smile), and who takes laughter as a deadly insult.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by Xtreme557:
"You guys are missing my point, I'm not saying he's a wuss. Just that when the show became TNBA that he was taken down a notch. Just watch the Laughing Fish or Joker's Favor and then watch the Joker's Millions, when the show became TNBA Joker became watered down."

Aw, man, I completely disagree. If any thing, I think the Joker was taken UP a notch in TNBA. Let me explain...

The only thing that really, really disappointed me about BTAS when the series first aired was the portrayal of the Joker. I was hoping for the demented madman of "The Killing Joke" or "Arkhasm Asylum." Instead, because of Broadcast Standards and Practices, all we got was a laughing loon who had a robot named Capt. Clown and ran around trying to win a stand-up comedy contest. It didn't help that almost all of the Joker's early episodes were more poorly animated than some of the other episodes. I don't think he even LOOKED good on screen until the episode "Almost Got 'Im."

Then came Mask of the Phantasm. Now THIS is the Joker I had been hoping for. His conversation w/Sal showed his raging anger just below the surface. He was allowed to kill in the movie (instead of gas everybody with laughing gas) and looked to be totally insane by the end of the movie. A little background information from the Joker's past didn't hurt either. For the first time to me, the BTAS Joker seemed DANGEROUS.

Don't get me wrong some of the BTAS Joker episodes were great ("The Man Who Killed Batman" and "Laughing Fish"), but how many times did we see him getting hen-pecked by Harley in some of those episodes ("The Trial" and "Harlequinade" anyone?)

Flash forward to the first episode of TNBA "Holiday Knights." Not only do we see that Joker has already killed at least three people, but he's planning on wiping out a lot more. And in that episode he didn't waste time trying to hit Batman over the head with a fish or a trophy, he shot at him. With a gun. And drew blood.

After that episode I'd have to say that there was a pretty even split of silly Joker appearances (like "Joker's Millions") and down right evil appearances (like "Mad Love"). But I still feel like, other than MOTP, the creators were never allowed to really cut loose with Mister J until the move to The WB and the TNBA. I feel like THAT was the Joker that showed up in ROTJ.

Just my thoughts on the subject,

Toddman

[DerekPowers]

I've always said this. not that joker is a wuss, cause hes not, but that out of all the villians, he had the most eps, and out of all those eps, very few rank among the best episodes of the series. in fact, many of them were just mediocre, except for the fact that mr. j was in them. heres a list of all his episode apperences....

btas:

"Joker's Favor"
"be a clown"
"the last laugh"
"the strange secret of bruce wayne"
"almost got 'im"
"christmas with the joker"
"joker's wild"
"the laughing fish"
"harley and ivy"
"the man who killed batman"
"harlequinade"
"make 'em laugh"

tnba:

"holiday Knights"
"world's finest"
"joker's millions"
"old wounds"
"legends of the dark Knight"
"mad love"
"beware the creeper"

now many of the best eps on the list arent even joker eps, but eps hes in, such as "almost got im", harley and ivy, holiday knights, worlds finest (altough i supose this is a joker ep, but not really, hes not the focus), and old wounds.

Out of the actual joker eps, i'd say some of the best were "jokers favor", the laughing fish, and mad love. id include worlds finest, but not only is that not a joker ep imo, but its not even a batman ep, and all the cross overs i never count as definitive bat eps. definitive bat eps deal w/ the dark knight, gotham, and stuff like that, although wf was awesome.

and, no joker ep (to my recolection) included the top notch animation of eps like "over the edge" the ultimate thrill, pov, or on leather wings, although worlds finest part 1 did have top notch animation, like i said, its technically not a joker ep. "be a clown, and christmas w/ the joker were just okay (although i really liked be a clown, but i see many flaws in it, especially in the animation. and that goes for christmas w/ the joker too, that animation was really bad). "joker's wild" was mediocre at best. make em laugh was pretty good, but joker was given the silly treatment, as in jokers millions.

I really felt like the series was lacking a definitive joker ep. and ep where mr. j does something really threatning and horrible to gotham, and w/ the top notch animation of the best episodes. in most of those eps his crimes arent too evil (not in all, the assasination of commisioner gordon, the attack on metropolis, the laughing fish, and the sound bomb in holiday knights were quite evil).