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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    I find it all too much of a coincidence. The Light manipulates events that lead to the possible reunification of Rhelasia in "Targets." One of the Krolotean's prisoners is Tseng from "Targets." In "Happy New Year," Lobo is specifically contracted to extract a Krolotean from a puppet body that replaced Tseng.
    The question becomes when did Tseng become a robotic substitute... and who paid Lobo to "put on a show for the locals"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    The Apokoliptian technology used for travel and the remotely mind controlled Justice League were a means to an end to phase one of their plan. They were used to invade Rimbor but not the principal architects of the invasion.
    Their alliance with Apoko...Apoko... the place with the nasty bus service (mass transit via Father Box?) could easily supply information about planets; the question for me is who lives on Rimbor now (we know that it has a human-ish population, but that's in the future. In the present time, colonized by Savage for the planet's resources, and the indiginous population killed perhaps- after all, they've had five years and access to boom tubes)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    Wouldn't Klarion have a good knowledge of the universe?
    What he doesn't know, he could probably find out pretty easily.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medinnus View Post
    Except it was necessary to find out what happened to the JL's missing time, and why the rest of the galaxy has them on the "Least Wanted" list.
    No ones arguing that it wasn't necessary for them to find out about the 16 hours, just that M'gann's actions in getting them came across as reckless to viewers and to some of the characters. Also I didn't take all of M'gann's words about it taking her hours to decipher their language completely at face value.

    As for being lobotomized, we don't know that; we know a catatonic state, from which we have seen a human recover. We don't know to what degree a completely different race was damaged, nor how it manifests.
    Superboy would probably disagree with you, as his reaction indicates this isn't the first time he's seen this result. Also we don't know the end result of Psimon's last encounter with M'gann after he was left a drooling vegetable.
    "Don't cry over spilled milk, get angry and punch a cow!"
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  3. #203
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    Psimon will be appearing in the Young Justice: Legacy game, which is supposedly set after Auld Acquaintance. Make of that what you will.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    Psimon will be appearing in the Young Justice: Legacy game, which is supposedly set after Auld Acquaintance. Make of that what you will.
    In my book that while bad is more forgiviable since it seems she just lost control. Now later we find out that was a worthless act because no one on the team cared she looked like and SB already knew. My bigger problem with that was her koing her teammates in enemy territory just so they would not find out.

    Still the most important think is intent in my book. Psimon recovering due to Klarion Magic, Lazarus Pits, other science or having some natural immunity is irrelevant if the intent was mind rape in the first place.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaddix View Post
    In my book that while bad is more forgiviable since it seems she just lost control. Now later we find out that was a worthless act because no one on the team cared she looked like and SB already knew. My bigger problem with that was her koing her teammates in enemy territory just so they would not find out.
    You are talking about someone who has just built a regular life after living 40+ years being discriminated against for who she is, and then threatening to take it away. Her reaction may not be right, but it is completely understandable. And it wasn't a worthless act, because the team was definitely stunned by it. Her form is pretty... out there, and there's no reason to think that they couldn't act the way she thought they would.

    Still the most important think is intent in my book. Psimon recovering due to Klarion Magic, Lazarus Pits, other science or having some natural immunity is irrelevant if the intent was mind rape in the first place.
    Psimon pushed her into an erratic state of mind by mentally abusing her and unlocking her greatest terrors. Miss Martian was hardly responsible for what she was doing at that point, due to Psimon's actions. I can't hold it against someone when they lash out when they are being mentally terrorized by someone.

    And he could have just recovered. We have no evidence either way.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    Psimon will be appearing in the Young Justice: Legacy game, which is supposedly set after Auld Acquaintance. Make of that what you will.
    With Nightwing and Tim Drake's Robin being playable characters I think it's safe to say that it takes place some time after Auld Acquaintance. For all we know the Psimon that appears in the game could have a different look that is the result of Miss Martian's actions in Image. Greg Weisman is big on that whole "Actions having consequences" thing, after all.
    "Don't cry over spilled milk, get angry and punch a cow!"
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  7. #207
    Skaddix is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    You are talking about someone who has just built a regular life after living 40+ years being discriminated against for who she is, and then threatening to take it away. Her reaction may not be right, but it is completely understandable. And it wasn't a worthless act, because the team was definitely stunned by it. Her form is pretty... out there, and there's no reason to think that they couldn't act the way she thought they would.



    Psimon pushed her into an erratic state of mind by mentally abusing her and unlocking her greatest terrors. Miss Martian was hardly responsible for what she was doing at that point, due to Psimon's actions. I can't hold it against someone when they lash out when they are being mentally terrorized by someone.

    And he could have just recovered. We have no evidence either way.
    Right but that is on Mars. Her teammates were not on Mars participating in said discrimination. She should have showed more trust in her teammates. Since that is a big part of being on a team in the first place especially when your in live and death situations. Heck she even let herself get blackmailed and only had the courage to step up because Superboy and Artemis went first. Incidentally, most of the team was besides Superboy and Aqualad.


    Yeah I said I gave her more of pass there. My point is she put herself in that situation by not telling her teammates that earlier. I mean its standard knowledge that if your a hero. The bad guys will try to use any of your secrets against you.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    With Nightwing and Tim Drake's Robin being playable characters I think it's safe to say that it takes place some time after Auld Acquaintance. For all we know the Psimon that appears in the game could have a different look that is the result of Miss Martian's actions in Image. Greg Weisman is big on that whole "Actions having consequences" thing, after all.
    Certainly could be. Maybe he's rocking the Professor X wheelchair, or maybe he's parapalegic and he battles exclusively on the mental plane. But he obviously survived, and in a way where he could play a part post-coma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaddix View Post
    Right but that is on Mars. Her teammates were not on Mars participating in said discrimination. She should have showed more trust in her teammates. Since that is a big part of being on a team in the first place especially when your in live and death situations. Heck she even let herself get blackmailed and only had the courage to step up because Superboy and Artemis went first. Incidentally, most of the team was besides Superboy and Aqualad.
    The phrase "You can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger" comes to mind. Yes, the team didn't participate in the discrimination on Mars... but she's been conditioned to loathe herself. Her form is rather monstrous compared to humans, and she was probably the most justified in keeping her secret; like you point out, most of the team backed away from her.

    Yeah I said I gave her more of pass there. My point is she put herself in that situation by not telling her teammates that earlier. I mean its standard knowledge that if your a hero. The bad guys will try to use any of your secrets against you.
    She had no way of knowing how they'd react. To her, it was better to keep the secret than risk losing the friends she has desperately wanted for so long. If she revealed her secret but was completely alienated from the team, then her life would basically be destroyed.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    With Nightwing and Tim Drake's Robin being playable characters I think it's safe to say that it takes place some time after Auld Acquaintance. For all we know the Psimon that appears in the game could have a different look that is the result of Miss Martian's actions in Image. Greg Weisman is big on that whole "Actions having consequences" thing, after all.
    I think it's possible Legacy takes place across much of the 5 year span. I think it's going to be several missions over that period that make up one broad story instead of the equivalent of a few episodes. Actually, they could fit a half season worth of storyline into the game easy.

  10. #210
    Zombie is offline Member
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    ^^ Just because Miss Martian had a traumatic unbringing, or was under pressure, doesn't absolve her of responsibility for her own actions. Those things may indeed have contributed to her actions, but that doesn't make it alright to attack your teammates, or give someone brain damage. If she'd brainfried Psimon to protect herself and her team, and rescue the president of Qurac and his daughter, I wouldn't mind. But she did it explicitly to protect a personal secret, that turned out to not be a very big deal.

  11. #211
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    Only on my third viewing did I notice how uncomfortable Superboy looked, when Miss Martian did her mind-meld trick with Sardath and Alanna.

    That had to be intentional on the part of the writers - every single second of animation counts.

    Nice foreshadowing.

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  12. #212
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    A major step down from the last episode, Boring and Bland. C-
    Nothing happens that didn't happen last week. Just on a different planet.
    Dislike the hooded look given to Adam Strange. Bring back the fin helmet.
    Although Alanna looked fetching.
    Only interesting reveal was that Gar's mother was killed by Queen Bee.
    Did like the look of Rann.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road to Gotham View Post
    Only interesting reveal was that Gar's mother was killed by Queen Bee.
    See this is the kind of thing that makes me dislike the time skip. Wouldn't it have been far more powerful to have an episode where Bee had Marie Logan killed, and we got to see how it went down, and see the team and Beast Boy dealing with it then, rather than just have it as this after the fact piece of exposition?

  14. #214
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    Thats a good point, Zombie.
    Now I dislike this episode even more.
    Although the time skip doesn't bother me.
    Maybe if there is a 3rd season they will go back explore the five years, filling in the gaps.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    See this is the kind of thing that makes me dislike the time skip. Wouldn't it have been far more powerful to have an episode where Bee had Marie Logan killed, and we got to see how it went down, and see the team and Beast Boy dealing with it then, rather than just have it as this after the fact piece of exposition?
    Yes but what you are forgetting is that if we didn't have the time skip all we would have is an episode where Queen Bee kills marie Logan. We would not have a Beast Boy because he would be too young. Marie Logan's death is just there to give us Beast Boy's origin. It makes a great backstory I don't think it would have been the best episode though.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaddix View Post
    Still the most important think is intent in my book. Psimon recovering due to Klarion Magic, Lazarus Pits, other science or having some natural immunity is irrelevant if the intent was mind rape in the first place.
    As someone who read this entire thread out of sheer curiousity, I think the dicussion really got away from you at page 2, when you started making all these superfluous arguments about why Miss Martian was in the wrong. You should of just stuck to your guns with her intent, because really thats the conclusive evidence here. Someone posted a pic of M'gann from the comic books embracing her white martian heritage and it obvious this is the direction the writers are taking her character. None of us saw this coming especially when not even five minutes eariler Alanna was shown saving one of the Krolos. Im sure we all expected the krolo leader to be taken in for questioning , and not have M'gann go all Nurse Mildred on it. The fact that she did tell us the kind of place shes been in persumably since the death of Gar's mother. I think we can all thank our lucky stars that shes now a much more interesting character then she was in season 1.
    "If that's what it means to be wise, I guess that means I'll be fool all my life" - Naruto, after Jiraiya has told him to wise up and give up on his friend.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaddix View Post
    Still the most important think is intent in my book. Psimon recovering due to Klarion Magic, Lazarus Pits, other science or having some natural immunity is irrelevant if the intent was mind rape in the first place.
    Since you're really keen on intent, then I hope we can distinguish between invading someone's mind (I'm not fond of the expression you use, for whatever that's worth) in order to get a tactical advantage in a heated battle, as compared to invading someone's mind because you're a sick, sadistic fellow who enjoys doing that.

  18. #218
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    I don't get how M'gann knocking out her teammates to keep her secret is any worse than Artemis letting her assassin (who knows how many people she took out after that) sister go to protect hers, or even worse than Rob, KF and Aqualad not telling their superiors about the League of shadows going after Selena Gonzalez which led to her implied death. I think one of the best things Usual Suspects showed was that when it came down to actually intentionally hurting and betraying their friends, they'd rather tell their worst secrets, and tbh that was kinda beautiful.
    As Kaldur said he has fought side by side with all of them "none are traitors"

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    See this is the kind of thing that makes me dislike the time skip. Wouldn't it have been far more powerful to have an episode where Bee had Marie Logan killed, and we got to see how it went down, and see the team and Beast Boy dealing with it then, rather than just have it as this after the fact piece of exposition?
    Not necessarily. Sometimes less is more; addressing beast boys tragedy in a quick 3 minute scene can be much more effective than addressing it in a 20 minute episode. Hell, my only complaint is that the dialogue for that whole scene felt a bit hamfisted and unnatural; it could have been handled better. Frankly i might have also prefered MMGann' say nothing at all and just Hug BB... afterall its not hard to assume who BB would be crying over or who would be responsible.


    Furtharmore, timeskips such as these can add a great deal of intrigue as we have an outcome but must piece together what happened in those past 5 years. Right now many people are speculating on exactly why Conner and MM'Gann broke up. And hell, for another example we can look to artemis; what if instead of her just showing up at the cave, we started at the beginning with her and saw her with her sister and father and so forth; all the mystery of her character would have been lost.... for weeks fans speculated on who she was and for a long time she was a suspect for the mole and it was that background info that resolved her of suspsion for fans. By skipping on those 5 years they can create new mysteries that fans will just have to sit and speculate on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrinch View Post
    Only on my third viewing did I notice how uncomfortable Superboy looked, when Miss Martian did her mind-meld trick with Sardath and Alanna.

    That had to be intentional on the part of the writers - every single second of animation counts.

    Nice foreshadowing.
    I noticed that too aswell... Really makes me think that the break up has something to do with her telephathy. Maybe not even her ruthless use of it but maybe even her free use of it, as she did not ask for permission or apologize before tap into their minds to start that translating. Though the only reason this bugs me is that when superboy was asked what went on between him and MM, he started talking about his cloning and her shapeshifting; appearances... If their break up was because of her telepathy, then why did he talk about his cloning/appearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaddix View Post
    Right but that is on Mars. Her teammates were not on Mars participating in said discrimination. She should have showed more trust in her teammates. Since that is a big part of being on a team in the first place especially when your in live and death situations. Heck she even let herself get blackmailed and only had the courage to step up because Superboy and Artemis went first. Incidentally, most of the team was besides Superboy and Aqualad.
    40+ years of discrimination based on nothing more than appearance can leave very, very deep mental scars. Hell she would know that even by earth standards her appearance would scare most people as she looks quite monstrous by their standards.
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  20. #220
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    ^ You don't see any way that the writers could have gotten a dramatic episode out of the team having to deal with the death of a woman, when their own actions were responsible for her being brought to Bee's attention? A woman who is not only Beast Boy's mother, but also the basis of Miss Martian's Earthly identity. But then, why would we want some intense drama, when things could just be resolved with three sentences of rather out of place exposition?

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