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View Poll Results: Rate and Comment - Young Justice: Invasion "Happy New Year"

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  • *****

    30 42.86%
  • ****1/2

    18 25.71%
  • ****

    8 11.43%
  • ***1/2

    5 7.14%
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    4 5.71%
  • **1/2

    2 2.86%
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    1 1.43%
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    1 1.43%
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  1. #341
    Guy Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    I can see the other side of it, but given hindsight you could also argue whether a 5 year jump is necessary. If they knew about them going 5 years forward in advance, than we really should've seen the beginning of her opening up to him at least.
    I guess for me, it's easy enough to either A) Assume that she does, and they'll still be together or B) Assume that they didn't, and they don't stay together after the skip. You can take such a thing to its logical conclusion either way, in my opinion, and not be too far off. At the very least, I don't think they are going to do anything that will require a massive explanation.

    Also in my experience show beats out tell, almost every time. Considering how subtle some of their characterizations were on their relationship during the season, it's gonna be a little annoying having to be told things instead of shown them. You could also argue whether all the screen time Conner, M'gann, and their relationship got was actually necessary.
    Show beats tell when you have time to show. The difference here is that what you are asking to show is very time-intensive. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see such things, but they are a luxury, a bit of extra icing on the cake.


    You can find different directions for characters to go in. Example, his home life was not as warm and fuzzy as it was shown in the comics.
    It could, but in Young Justice it just isn't true or set-up. Now we could hash out a dozen plots for people like Wally and Aqualad that don't involve the obvious ones, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't the stories the author wants to tell. The jump is a convenient way to set-up such problems quickly and not wasting time on a season or two setting them up. I think we'll see soon enough that there would not have been time to get everything in and still tell the stories they wanted to tell.

    I thought Aqualad was the most poorly handled character on The Team. It's not whether his arc was interesting or not. I just found the character and the way he came off to be very, very dull. In fact once Robin showed that he was capable of leading a team in Image & Performance, I didn't find much reason for Aqualad to even be on the team. Since Robin came across as more accessible and entertaining to watch. Maybe the time skip will end up benefiting Aqualad the most, since he seems to be wearing his father's armor.
    Really? I thought he was a much better leader than Robin. Both times Robin was in command, he seemed to make rather critical mistakes, the most obvious being the attacks on the Biaylans which lead to reprisals and such.

    And dull? I guess it's your opinion. I always found him to be a sort of stoic badass more than anything. His Ripley imitation in the final episode was one of the best moments in the season.

    Which would be fine if we weren't being thrown about half a dozen characters that we know little to nothing about.
    ... And it's still fine. The first episode was good enough to give me a feel for most of the characters, despite being crowded. This show and its writers are known for being efficient when it comes to using their time for characterization and plot advancement, and I don't see that changing much.

    Characters like Conner and Miss Martian can and already are incorporated into the arcs of new characters like Lagoon Boy, Beast Boy, and I'll wager Wonder Girl. The same with Nightwing and Tim. Those who haven't appeared yet will likely get an episode or so of focus, which can also be used to characterize the new ones. For example, we know that Superboy and Blue Beetle are going after Intergang in an episode; that can do a whole bunch of things both their characters and that storyline.

    To me, there's so much overlap with the characters that whenever you are focusing on a new character, you will inevitably be advancing a few others.

    True but at least if they don't get much development have some fight scenes to make out. Seriously Aqualad had like no good use of powers in the last third of Season 1.
    Yeah, I can't disagree there. He still had some good action, just not as much with his sorcery.

  2. #342
    Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Jerome Moore posted some character designs today
    1. The Dude
    2. Cat Grant and Catherine Cobert

    Pretty neat there was a back story about the creation of one of the incidental characters Gamma Squad rescued. Totally see his inspiration for Cobert now that he mentioned it.
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  3. #343
    Nygma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    I guess for me, it's easy enough to either A) Assume that she does, and they'll still be together or B) Assume that they didn't, and they don't stay together after the skip. You can take such a thing to its logical conclusion either way, in my opinion, and not be too far off. At the very least, I don't think they are going to do anything that will require a massive explanation.
    It was also easy enough to assume where they were going from the beginning. It didn't make it any less enjoyable or engaging to watch. Considering how Artemis opening up was crucial to her arc, I might've been fine with it, had they NOT shown her hesitating in comforting KF about the Roy news. With the exception of her telling the team about her family ties, it was always Wally that had to take the initiative to move things forward with their relationship.

    Show beats tell when you have time to show. The difference here is that what you are asking to show is very time-intensive. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see such things, but they are a luxury, a bit of extra icing on the cake.
    It's more than capable of MAKING time to show something if it really wants to.

    It could, but in Young Justice it just isn't true or set-up. Now we could hash out a dozen plots for people like Wally and Aqualad that don't involve the obvious ones, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't the stories the author wants to tell. The jump is a convenient way to set-up such problems quickly and not wasting time on a season or two setting them up. I think we'll see soon enough that there would not have been time to get everything in and still tell the stories they wanted to tell.
    Isn't true? Wally's home life didn't start out as terrible in the comics either. And there's the word that bugs me the most, convenience.

    Really? I thought he was a much better leader than Robin. Both times Robin was in command, he seemed to make rather critical mistakes, the most obvious being the attacks on the Biaylans which lead to reprisals and such.
    Being a better leader on the show doesn't make him a better character. Watching Robin make those mistakes, and struggle with wanting to be a leader is more engaging to watch because it's more flawed.

    And dull? I guess it's your opinion. I always found him to be a sort of stoic badass more than anything. His Ripley imitation in the final episode was one of the best moments in the season.
    The problem with Aqualad is that besides being stoic, there's really nothing else to him beyond that. He reacts blandly to just about everything that happens around him. He pretty much underlines the phrase, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
    IMO he's the character on this show that's in dire need of something besides being stoic. Miss Martian's sitcom mannerisms might've been grating at times, but never once did I consider her boring.
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  4. #344
    Guy Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    It was also easy enough to assume where they were going from the beginning. It didn't make it any less enjoyable or engaging to watch. Considering how Artemis opening up was crucial to her arc, I might've been fine with it, had they NOT shown her hesitating in comforting KF about the Roy news. With the exception of her telling the team about her family ties, it was always Wally that had to take the initiative to move things forward with their relationship.
    There's a difference in showing them hating each other and making the assumption that they'll eventually open up to each other, and showing them finally accepting their relationship and assuming they'll fully open up to each other. One is a more logical continuation than the other. Frankly, I just don't need to see it when it's not a leap that it'll happen eventually.

    It's more than capable of MAKING time to show something if it really wants to.
    I'm fairly sure they don't have the ability to renew themselves for another season.

    Isn't true? Wally's home life didn't start out as terrible in the comics either. And there's the word that bugs me the most, convenience.
    The problem is that turning his home life bad just to give him a plot doesn't seem right. And it's the writers choice; unless they did make his home life bad (which I doubt), it doesn't fit their concept of the show. You can't ask the writers to do something with a character they don't feel fits their conception.

    Being a better leader on the show doesn't make him a better character. Watching Robin make those mistakes, and struggle with wanting to be a leader is more engaging to watch because it's more flawed.
    I don't think we are going to find common ground here because I don't agree that Aqualad is dull. To me, I don't mind his stoicism.

    The problem with Aqualad is that besides being stoic, there's really nothing else to him beyond that. He reacts blandly to just about everything that happens around him. He pretty much underlines the phrase, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
    IMO he's the character on this show that's in dire need of something besides being stoic. Miss Martian's sitcom mannerisms might've been grating at times, but never once did I consider her boring.
    Like...? I don't mind the character being stoic. I think he still has interesting hooks as someone who is still a bit of a reluctant leader, and someone who had his heart broken and may not have gotten over it. I don't find him dull, I kind of like his contrast to the other characters. The two big Aqualad episodes are among my favorites, really.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    It was also easy enough to assume where they were going from the beginning. It didn't make it any less enjoyable or engaging to watch. Considering how Artemis opening up was crucial to her arc, I might've been fine with it, had they NOT shown her hesitating in comforting KF about the Roy news. With the exception of her telling the team about her family ties, it was always Wally that had to take the initiative to move things forward with their relationship.



    It's more than capable of MAKING time to show something if it really wants to.



    Isn't true? Wally's home life didn't start out as terrible in the comics either. And there's the word that bugs me the most, convenience.



    Being a better leader on the show doesn't make him a better character. Watching Robin make those mistakes, and struggle with wanting to be a leader is more engaging to watch because it's more flawed.



    The problem with Aqualad is that besides being stoic, there's really nothing else to him beyond that. He reacts blandly to just about everything that happens around him. He pretty much underlines the phrase, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
    IMO he's the character on this show that's in dire need of something besides being stoic. Miss Martian's sitcom mannerisms might've been grating at times, but never once did I consider her boring.
    You seem very interested in how the relationship of Artemis and Kid Flash would have slowly evolved. Honestly I am not and I don't think most people are. For the most part their "romantic" story consisted of childish picking on each other and pining over someone else who is obviously not interested in them (Superboy and Megan). The truth is their relationship has a chance to be normal and flirtatious which is healthy but boring to slowly watch.

    We got a good idea of how these characters were developing last season and to me it is more exciting to see if 5 years keeps them on the same path of development of if they are completely different and if they are different, what made them that way. These are stories that take seasons to tell and most channels and action shows don't have that sort of promise for renewal.

    Honestly I think the characters people complained about not getting as much development last season (Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad) are gonna get it in spades due to the 5 year jump. You get to see a different side of mentor in Night Wing, most likely a more mature and possibly settled down Kid Flash and who knows what the Aqualad arc will be. I think the characters that benefited from the 5 year jump story wise were the most stable characters. The characters with chaotic origins like Superboy, Roy, Megan and Artemis got more attention last season because the groups learned very disturbing things about their background and those characters grew from that.

    I fully welcome the jump and the many possible story arcs it will eventually lead to. I trust Greg and have yet to be disappointed with the show so I am not about to start now because they chose to take a chance.

  6. #346
    Nygma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    There's a difference in showing them hating each other and making the assumption that they'll eventually open up to each other, and showing them finally accepting their relationship and assuming they'll fully open up to each other. One is a more logical continuation than the other. Frankly, I just don't need to see it when it's not a leap that it'll happen eventually.
    None of it was a leap that it would eventually happen though.

    I'm fairly sure they don't have the ability to renew themselves for another season.
    I'm fairly sure you know what I'm talking about.

    The problem is that turning his home life bad just to give him a plot doesn't seem right. And it's the writers choice; unless they did make his home life bad (which I doubt), it doesn't fit their concept of the show. You can't ask the writers to do something with a character they don't feel fits their conception.
    Alot can happen given time. Take Eddie Brock in Spectacular Spider-Man, in his first episode he doesn't show anything that might resemble that he has issues. It didn't take long for that to change did it?

    I don't think we are going to find common ground here because I don't agree that Aqualad is dull. To me, I don't mind his stoicism.

    Like...? I don't mind the character being stoic. I think he still has interesting hooks as someone who is still a bit of a reluctant leader, and someone who had his heart broken and may not have gotten over it. I don't find him dull, I kind of like his contrast to the other characters. The two big Aqualad episodes are among my favorites, really.
    I wouldn't mind his stoicism if there was more to him besides that. Or if he spoke like a normal person like the other team members do. And the reluctant leader angle felt more compelling with Robin this past season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javy3 View Post
    You seem very interested in how the relationship of Artemis and Kid Flash would have slowly evolved. Honestly I am not and I don't think most people are. For the most part their "romantic" story consisted of childish picking on each other and pining over someone else who is obviously not interested in them (Superboy and Megan). The truth is their relationship has a chance to be normal and flirtatious which is healthy but boring to slowly watch.
    You've been to places beyond toonzone forums right? I doubt the relationship would've been boring to watch since both Kid Flash and Artemis are both ANYTHING but boring.

    I'm not against a time jump at all. Just against stuff that avoids what I feel would've made some characters and their characterizations richer.

    On another note, if we skipped ahead 5 years, and RA has yet to find the original Roy, it doesn't speak well of his detective skills.
    "Don't cry over spilled milk, get angry and punch a cow!"
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  7. #347
    Guy Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    None of it was a leap that it would eventually happen though.
    I think showing them at the turning point in their relationship and leaping versus showing them still disliking each other and skipping are two rather different things.

    I'm fairly sure you know what I'm talking about.
    Then I guess it's that they feel they have more important issues and think that there is enough of their relationship now that they don't need more to establish their future relationship.

    Alot can happen given time. Take Eddie Brock in Spectacular Spider-Man, in his first episode he doesn't show anything that might resemble that he has issues. It didn't take long for that to change did it?
    It certainly can, though I guess I don't see a point in it beyond messing with Wally's life. I think Wally's family life is a wonderful contrast to just about everyone elses': it's normal and hides no secrets, kind of like he is. It's a great reflection on him and the type of mythos that he comes from.

    I wouldn't mind his stoicism if there was more to him besides that. Or if he spoke like a normal person like the other team members do. And the reluctant leader angle felt more compelling with Robin this past season.
    Robin wasn't a reluctant leader as much as he was reluctant to step into the Bat's shoes. He's reluctant to become that sort of leader. Aqualad sees himself as a soldier, too willing to give up himself for leadership... which ends up pushing him back into the leadership role when he doesn't want to give Robin the entire burden now.

    But I think you'll be pleased with Aqualad this season. I'm guessing he's going to have an interesting arc, no matter how it turns out.

    You've been to places beyond toonzone forums right? I doubt the relationship would've been boring to watch since both Kid Flash and Artemis are both ANYTHING but boring.

    I'm not against a time jump at all. Just against stuff that avoids what I feel would've made some characters and their characterizations richer.
    I would love to see that stuff, but again the reality of the situation is that slow and very in-depth characterization is difficult when you are not sure how many seasons you are going to get. When it comes down to seeing a slower development of Artemis and Wally's relationship versus seeing them further into their career, I take the latter. That's all.

    On another note, if we skipped ahead 5 years, and RA has yet to find the original Roy, it doesn't speak well of his detective skills.
    To be fair, he's trying to find someone who may well be dead, who is trucking with the League of Assassins, and who likely doesn't stay in any one place for a long period of time. Even with the League, the resources and nature of Ra's al Ghul's operation would make him hell to find.

  8. #348
    Xorn is offline Member
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    I'm gonna have to agree with Nygma about Aqualad's character being handled poorly (Although as a side note: Aqualad doesn't speak like everybody else because English is not his first language). Most of the time Kaldur is just wallpaper. He just doesn't really do anything interesting, get any cool lines, display what his powers are capable of, or get any interesting story lines. Hopefully this changes in season 2 but it looks like the focus will be on the new characters. IMO Geoff Johns has done a much better job of making the "concept" of Kaldur interesting in the comics. I say the "concept" because the aqualad in the comics is pretty much a completely different character than the one on the show.

  9. #349
    Revelator's Avatar
    Revelator is offline In summary then: "Oh no."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    I'm gonna have to agree with Nygma about Aqualad's character being handled poorly (Although as a side note: Aqualad doesn't speak like everybody else because English is not his first language).
    Even that aspect is handled poorly. I know many people for whom English is not their first language, and none of them sound like Aqualad, whose English is gramatically and syntactically perfect (unlike a foreign speaker's) but stilted and pompous, like a stereotype of what royal people sound like. He's pretty much a dead character. His stoicism doesn't even seem like the real thing--a stoic has to have actual passions to hold back and suppress, whereas Aqualad is fundamentally passionless. He's noble but otherwise devoid of anything resembling a personality trait, and rather sexless compared to the other characters on the show. Let's hope he gets a character transplant this season.
    "A carpet is large enough to accommodate two sufis, but the world is not large enough for two Kings." – Yavuz Sultan Selim

  10. #350
    Nygma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Gardner View Post
    But I think you'll be pleased with Aqualad this season. I'm guessing he's going to have an interesting arc, no matter how it turns out.
    Considering I have yet to be impressed with his characterization on this show, that's a huge guarantee. But I think Revelator is pretty much right about how Kaldur seems passionless. The last time he showed any sort of range of emotion was in Usual Suspects when he was trying to block Luthor and Queen Bee from leaving Santa Prisca. Other than that, his emotional range in his voice sounds the same in just about any situation. Every one else on the team has more emotional range than he does, even Superboy.

    I would love to see that stuff, but again the reality of the situation is that slow and very in-depth characterization is difficult when you are not sure how many seasons you are going to get. When it comes down to seeing a slower development of Artemis and Wally's relationship versus seeing them further into their career, I take the latter. That's all.
    It didn't stop Greg from doing that in Spectacular Spider-Man's 2 seasons. For the record, the time jump over the characters lives is an irritation for me, but it's hardly a deal breaker. For them specifically I guess my biggest worry is that after 5 years, they'll be fundamentally different characters than the ones we knew on screen. At least in Artemis's case, one of the most interesting things about her was watching her over come her insecurities in hiding who she really is. By now she might be a totally different person due to their relationship, which I fear might cause a disconnect from the Artemis we watched in season 1. But I guess we'll know by episode 6.
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  11. #351
    Guy Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygma View Post
    Considering I have yet to be impressed with his characterization on this show, that's a huge guarantee. But I think Revelator is pretty much right about how Kaldur seems passionless. The last time he showed any sort of range of emotion was in Usual Suspects when he was trying to block Luthor and Queen Bee from leaving Santa Prisca. Other than that, his emotional range in his voice sounds the same in just about any situation. Every one else on the team has more emotional range than he does, even Superboy.
    Hey, that's the second to last episode. Come on!

    I dunno, I think they've done well when they've pushed Aqualad away from the stoic. I liked Disordered, where you could hear his voice breaking and the resignation in when he decides to remain on. To me, that scene is great. Depending on what happens with Aqualad, I think we are going to get a much more emotional version where he will get to stretch his range. It's not like Khary Payton doesn't have range.

    And he doesn't really talk any different from Aquaman. There are definitely precedents for people who learn English as a second language speaking it better than even a regular American, particularly in regards to grammar.

    It didn't stop Greg from doing that in Spectacular Spider-Man's 2 seasons.
    Don't even talk about that show. The wound has only been recently reopened, and I don't think it will ever quite heal.

    For the record, the time jump over the characters lives is an irritation for me, but it's hardly a deal breaker. For them specifically I guess my biggest worry is that after 5 years, they'll be fundamentally different characters than the ones we knew on screen. At least in Artemis's case, one of the most interesting things about her was watching her over come her insecurities in hiding who she really is. By now she might be a totally different person due to their relationship, which I fear might cause a disconnect from the Artemis we watched in season 1. But I guess we'll know by episode 6.
    No, again, I get it. It's a completely understandable feeling. It always irritates me that Bleach gets so many damn episodes, but shows like this are often cut short. Imagine what myth-arc guy like Weisman could do with 300+ episodes!

    But realistically, they want to get what they can in. Spectacular Spidey and YJ, to me, are incredibly efficient shows when it comes to balancing plot and characterization. I think the Second Season will continue that stuff. I'm just glad that they are (from what I can tell from spoilers) going all out with what they have and not pulling punches.

  12. #352
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    One thing that I think a lot of people overlooked in this episode (due to all the other stuff going on) was Karen's evasive behaviour with Mal. She couldn't get away from him fast enough, and while we did see them together in "Depths", I have to wonder what this little spat was all about. It gave the impression that they're encountering troubles in their relationship. I don't suppose it's possible that Karen harbours feelings for her mentor (Ray Palmer/The Atom)?
    "Are you the dreamer or merely part of someone's dream?" - The Mad Hatter.
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  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowStar View Post
    One thing that I think a lot of people overlooked in this episode (due to all the other stuff going on) was Karen's evasive behaviour with Mal. She couldn't get away from him fast enough, and while we did see them together in "Depths", I have to wonder what this little spat was all about. It gave the impression that they're encountering troubles in their relationship. I don't suppose it's possible that Karen harbours feelings for her mentor (Ray Palmer/The Atom)?
    I remember that scene. I didn't think much of it since I assumed Karen was just late for class. I feel bad for Mal though. He's the only one without powers or cool fighting skills; leaving him stuck as mission control. Maybe one day, he'll gain superpowers or something that will allow him be out on the field with his girlfriend.

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    Moegura is from the family of golden moles, the most discreet but also the most visually-impaired species in the world. Fortunately, an unexpected meeting with Master Ryu Kenden changed his life. With the Way of the Mists being the ideal surroundings in which to exploit his other senses, his discretion has now been transformed into a deadly weapon.


  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowStar View Post
    I don't suppose it's possible that Karen harbours feelings for her mentor (Ray Palmer/The Atom)?
    I'd say it's possible. Impressionable young students having crushes on their professors is common enough. If said impressionable young student were to find out that said professor is certified badass The Atom, much less start sidekicking for him, I could definitely see it happening.

  15. #355
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    Interesting that Zatanna and Rocket, the two most recent Leaguers, were covered in the planetary watch alert. Those aliens were really up to date where the Justice League was concerned. Makes you wonder how long they were watching the Earth for before the start of season 2.
    "Are you the dreamer or merely part of someone's dream?" - The Mad Hatter.
    B:TAS - Perchance to Dream.

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