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View Poll Results: Rate and Comment - The "Young Justice" Season Finale

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  1. #181
    AlgeaX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatHairyDeal View Post
    I have to agree with Zombie. If you can't classify a sadistic, antisocial, murderous guy as "evil," then there aren't many characters on the show who qualify. There might be gray areas for his counterpart in Dr. Fate, but there's essentially none for Klarion.
    Klarion's extremely destructive, there's no doubt about that. But we can't really apply human moral judgements to him because, unlike the rest of the Light, he is not even remotely human. Klarion is a personification of Chaos, an eldritch abomination that merely wears the guise of a human child.

    How do you define "anti-social" for an entity that's completely alien to human social norms?

  2. #182
    Zombie is offline Member
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    ^ Bollocks. He's intelligent enough to be responsible for his actions, he's not an animal, nor an unthinking force of nature. For all intents and purposes he is as 'human' as Miss Martian, Monsieur Mallah or Superboy (none of whom are actually human), and is equally able to be judged according to existing social standards.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    ^ Bollocks. He's intelligent enough to be responsible for his actions, he's not an animal, nor an unthinking force of nature. For all intents and purposes he is as 'human' as Miss Martian, Monsieur Mallah or Superboy (none of whom are actually human), and is equally able to be judged according to existing social standards.
    Klarion is an anthropomorphic personification of chaos as a concept. Essentially, he IS Chaos. Would you consider Death of the Endless a serial killer?

    And he's far more removed from humanity than Miss Martian and Superboy. Kyrptonians and Martians essentially have all the same basic emotions and psychological drives as human beings do. Klarion doesn't, anymore than Nabu does.

    He literally does not, and possibly cannot, think the way humans do.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    Klarion's extremely destructive, there's no doubt about that. But we can't really apply human moral judgements to him because, unlike the rest of the Light, he is not even remotely human. Klarion is a personification of Chaos, an eldritch abomination that merely wears the guise of a human child.
    I'd say we definitely can apply human moral judgments. He's a fictional character that has clearly been depicted to side with the bad guys. It's a show with very clear-cut heroes and villains, and there's every reason to lump him with the villains. Let me pose another question: is this guy capable of doing anything remotely good? Unlike Dr. Fate, who I earlier stated had some moral shades of gray to his personality, Klarion doesn't seem to have any positive traits that would otherwise counterbalance all the harm he does.

    Calling this guy anything but "evil" seems like semantics here, but if you really don't want to use that term, then I think we can all agree that he's a bad seed that should be excised from the company of any sort of decent people, which at the very least is the same outlook we have on people we have no qualms calling evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    How do you define "anti-social" for an entity that's completely alien to human social norms?
    Antisocial -

    a condition characterized by repetitive behavioral patterns that are contrary to usual moral and ethical standards and cause a person to experience continuous conflict with society. Symptoms include aggression, callousness, impulsiveness, irresponsibility, hostility, a low frustration level, marked emotional immaturity, and poor judgment. A person who has this disorder overlooks the rights of others, is incapable of loyalty to others or to social values, is unable to experience guilt or to learn from past behaviors, is impervious to punishment, and tends to rationalize his or her behavior or to blame it on others. Also called antisocial reaction.
    Yeah, I think that pretty much sums up Klarion. It also pretty much sums up many of the historically evil people in our world, and statistically, comprises about 75% of people incarcerated in US prisons. I'd argue that it's not as though Klarion doesn't understand human norms. I think he understands them pretty well, he just doesn't care. He does whatever he pleases, doesn't care whom he hurts, won't correct his behavior regardless of whatever negative feedback he gets.

    In short, Klarion does think like a human, just a psychologically deranged one.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatHairyDeal View Post
    I'd say we definitely can apply human moral judgments. He's a fictional character that has clearly been depicted to side with the bad guys. It's a show with very clear-cut heroes and villains, and there's every reason to lump him with the villains. Let me pose another question: is this guy capable of doing anything remotely good? Unlike Dr. Fate, who I earlier stated had some moral shades of gray to his personality, Klarion doesn't seem to have any positive traits that would otherwise counterbalance all the harm he does.
    The only time we see Klarion is from the POV of the Team, i.e. when he's acting as an antagonist. We don't really know how he spends his "free time". And given Savage's speech about humanity needing conflict to grow and evolve, it's likely that Klarion believes he's acting in the human race's best interests.

    Calling this guy anything but "evil" seems like semantics here, but if you really don't want to use that term, then I think we can all agree that he's a bad seed that should be excised from the company of any sort of decent people, which at the very least is the same outlook we have on people we have no qualms calling evil.
    To my mind the word "evil" implies a conscious choice. The rest of the Light are who they are because they choose to be. They could give up their villainous ways if they had a mind to. Granted, none of them are likely to do so anytime soon but the option is open to them.

    Klarion is literally Chaos Incarnate. It's quite possible that he's incapable of going against his nature even if he wanted to. Anymore than say Ares from Greek Mythology could become a pacifist.

    Antisocial -

    Yeah, I think that pretty much sums up Klarion. It also pretty much sums up many of the historically evil people in our world, and statistically, comprises about 75% of people incarcerated in US prisons. I'd argue that it's not as though Klarion doesn't understand human norms. I think he understands them pretty well, he just doesn't care. He does whatever he pleases, doesn't care whom he hurts, won't correct his behavior regardless of whatever negative feedback he gets.
    You're trying to apply terms intended to describe human behaviour to a non-human entity. A female praying mantis will a eat the male after mating with him. A human woman who exhibited such behaviour would be rightly condemned as a dangerous psychopath, yet rarely do you hear anyone denounce a praying mantis as "evil".

    In short, Klarion does think like a human, just a psychologically deranged one.
    Perhaps, but what counts as "psychologically deranged" by human standards may be perfectly normal for a Lord of Chaos.

    http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/....php?qid=13979

  6. #186
    reflection is offline Senior Member
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    I doubt Klarion thinks he's acting in the best interest of the human race or that he cares one way or the other. I think other members of The Light are convinced that Chaos serves their objectives and convinced Klarion that they'd help him provide Chaos.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    The only time we see Klarion is from the POV of the Team, i.e. when he's acting as an antagonist. We don't really know how he spends his "free time". And given Savage's speech about humanity needing conflict to grow and evolve, it's likely that Klarion believes he's acting in the human race's best interests.
    Whether or not Klarion thinks he's acting in humanity's best interests, I think it's safer to assume that Klarion is acting in Klarion's best interests.

    Really, we have limited exposure to any of the characters on the show, good or bad. At some point, thinking too hard about things that occur off-screen kind of confounds any generalized analysis you can make about the characters and plots. In other words, I'd agree you can't rule out that maybe Klarion thinks what he's doing is generally beneficial to humankind, but I don't think we've been given enough info that we should necessarily rule it in, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    To my mind the word "evil" implies a conscious choice. The rest of the Light are who they are because they choose to be. They could give up their villainous ways if they had a mind to. Granted, none of them are likely to do so anytime soon but the option is open to them.

    Klarion is literally Chaos Incarnate. It's quite possible that he's incapable of going against his nature even if he wanted to. Anymore than say Ares from Greek Mythology could become a pacifist.
    Yeah, I imagine that might be what Greg Weisman was arriving at when he mentioned Klarion wasn't "evil in the traditional sense." I always interpreted Ares, though, as a guy who literally could've chosen to be more peaceful, but he didn't because he fed off strife and it'd be displeasing not to indulge in the promotion of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    You're trying to apply terms intended to describe human behaviour to a non-human entity. A female praying mantis will a eat the male after mating with him. A human woman who exhibited such behaviour would be rightly condemned as a dangerous psychopath, yet rarely do you hear anyone denounce a praying mantis as "evil".
    To our general understanding, a praying mantis shows very little human-like personality traits. On the other hand, Klarion has shown an appreciable number, such as anger, frustration, pleasure, etc. If he's to be a digestible character, then I don't see why you should automatically assume you can't relate human behavior to his. He's even creative enough to enter a social contract with a bunch of other like-minded individuals to push his own agenda. Isn't it even a little ironic that a guy who feeds off chaos was willing to submit to structured agreement with other guys, even if it were simply a means to an end? I personally see him as a guy who can think within such a wide scope he that understands the different perspectives that other people have, but he just doesn't care. Who knows for sure if he can.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlgeaX View Post
    Perhaps, but what counts as "psychologically deranged" by human standards may be perfectly normal for a Lord of Chaos.

    http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/....php?qid=13979
    If the official word is that Klarion isn't "evil in the traditional sense," but "chaotic," I'll roll with it. He certainly is a great agent of evil, though.

  8. #188
    AlgeaX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatHairyDeal View Post
    If the official word is that Klarion isn't "evil in the traditional sense," but "chaotic," I'll roll with it. He certainly is a great agent of evil, though.
    Perhaps but only so long as Evil and Chaos' goals overlap. It'll be interesting to see how Klarion and Nabu react once the Light's unseen "partner" takes a more direct role in the story.

  9. #189
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    Help me guys and gals, I just saw this episode.

    What is the significance of the Timm-Justice-League members (sans Flash) being hinted at being important?

    I saw it as a direct callback myself.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What is the significance of the Timm-Justice-League members (sans Flash) being hinted at being important?
    They were sent to the planet Rimbor and attacked those present in a span of 16 hours announcing in various alien languages they were the Justice League of Earth. As a result, several alien races began infiltrating Earth to learn more about the beings who live there and/or perform genetic experiments on them. The Light so far has partnered with some of them at various points after this episode.
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