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View Poll Results: Rate and Comment - Young Justice "Usual Suspects"

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  1. #181
    Zergrinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    To be clear, I like this show. It has great art and animation, good voice actors, and great action sequences. I just don't think it is that far removed from the average cartoon in terms of how much threat is posed by the villains.
    I disagree with you here. The master plan of the villains was crystal clear. Ask yourself - what is the end game of the Light? Well, as the end of Usual Suspects show us, they wanted to gain control over the Justice League. And they did!

    What was the master plan of the bad guys in Justice League Unlimited? Lex Braniac wanted to gain immortality by putting their consciousness in an Amazo android? Grodd wanting to turn everyone into apes? Luthor wanting to resurrect Brainiac? Darkseid wanting to kill everyone on Earth? Please.

    Back to Young Justice. What did the Light need to do to accomplish this? Remember, the Justice League is composed of four different species - human, Kryptonian, Thanagarian, and Martian. AND a machine.

    For them to achieve that kind of control, they had to combine an alien life form (Starro fragment) with nanotechnology (the Fog), magic (Klarion), and a system of control.

    Let us examine how they got to this point, and how every defeat wasn't a total wash:


    1. Fog: The Light had Dr. Roquette create her nanotech bots "The Fog", ostensibly to steal data. One of the places hit? Star Labs. Everything was taken, possibly security protocols which later made it possible for Riddler to snatch the Starro fragment (which by this episode was still in Atlantis). Yes, they failed to nab WayneTech data and lost an operative, and lost the nannites Roquette made for them, but they still had the technology.
    2. Starro: Plan "A" for Down Time was for Black Manta to take Starro. Plan "B" was to get it topside, to Star Labs, where they have more operatives able to secure the starfish.
    3. Control: Remember Injustice League? They had Joker test out the control system as a means to manipulate plants all over the world, while broadcasting from a single location. Pretty good system for controlling 20 different Justice Leaguers, no? They lost their ransom, sure, but it was a successful test in that regard.


    Now, let us examine your objections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Belle Reve showed just how ineffectual the villains were. With enormous resources, they still got defeated by Superboy, all but alone. Probably one of the few outcomes that at least had some payoff down the line, as you say with Ivo and the ice villains etc getting out when necessary.
    As you said, the main objective was for them to boot out Amanda Waller and install their operative in Belle Reve. Admittedly the secondary objective to free all the superpowered convicts failed - it would have been a dandy way regain the use of their agents without risking Hugo Strange's cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The Injustice League was even worse. They lose a number of powerful villains including Black Adam and Wotan (though he didn't seem to stay imprisoned long) to test some giant plants? They threw off the JL from the scent, but the necessity for doing so is more evidence of a fundamental imbalance in power between the heroes and villains. The Light are an organisation of seemingly just about every villain on the planet, yet their only hope of defeating an organisation of a couple of dozen heroes is stealth.
    Klarion appears to have the ability to just teleport people out of nowhere, so I would not exactly consider people like Black Adam and Wotan "lost". Besides, they will all be incarcerated at Belle Reve, where the Light basically have their revolving door. Anyhow, the Injustice League were probably being set up to fail, as a way of taking the heat off the Light.

    Second, The Injustice League allowed them to test out the plants. But not just the efficacy of the Kobra-Venom plants as a weapon to use against the League, but as a plant control system. Joker was able to puppeteer many plants spread out over the world. This system surely was the foundation of how they managed to control the Justice League, and I'll eat my hat if we don't see a similar system in use next episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The Perdita plot was also a pretty ignominious defeat. All they had to do was delay Kid Flash for about half an hour. Vandal Savage, who seems to be the main villain of the season, can't hold up Kid Flash for more than 15 minutes?
    Savage didn't want to tip his hand just yet. The plan very nearly succeeded if not for the timely arrival of the operating team at the hospital lobby. But as you say, and I agree, the kill-Perdita plot ended in total defeat. But then again, the Light didn't gloat about it, saying it was a victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Misplaced illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. The villains get soundly defeated, losing (so the episode description says) the four most powerful sorcerers on Earth. Why? Because they were really trying to burglarize a lab. Remember the Task Force X episode of Justice League, where a small team of non-superpowered villains managed to break into the Watchtower and steal that magical armour golem? They lost one villain.
    The Light wanted Klarion to create a distraction so they can steal the Starro fragment. This was no master plan by the cabal, it's the whims and caprices of a Lord of Chaos. The Brain said that his actions were very effective, although probably extreme. Again, given that Klarion is on par with Dr. Fate's power here, I don't think the four most powerful sorcerers are lost forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Bialya is another almost perfect example in structural terms. The villains get beaten on every front, but at the end say "Hey, we didn't even care about Superboy or the Sphere. We were just testing this transit system."
    Bialya was always a test of the boom tube delivery system. The Light did not account for Young Justice interference. They were not actively trying to re-gain Superboy. It was never part of the plan, but they did improvise once the opportunity presented itself. It just didn't work out. Haven't you wondered why Queen Bee wanted Robin taken alive? Fast forward to "Image", and maybe you'll get an idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The Qurac mission. One of the actual members of the Light had a coup foiled by a handful of teenage heroes, and lost one of her own henchmen. And what was the payoff? Blackmailing Miss Martian to do... what? Nothing as far as we know.
    Qurac was a complete defeat, no question. Queen Bee tried to salvage it by compromising Miss Martian. Again, it didn't work out, but at least she tried.

    EVIL SPOILER


  2. #182
    klammed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrinch View Post
    I disagree with you here. The master plan of the villains was crystal clear. Ask yourself - what is the end game of the Light? Well, as the end of Usual Suspects show us, they wanted to gain control over the Justice League. And they did!

    Savage didn't want to tip his hand just yet. The plan very nearly succeeded if not for the timely arrival of the operating team at the hospital lobby. But as you say, and I agree, the kill-Perdita plot ended in total defeat. But then again, the Light didn't gloat about it, saying it was a victory.
    Re Coldhearted, I think that was more character development/insight than anything else. We learn there that Savage: immortal, powerful, immortal (yes, saying that again), who seems to be the main man in The Light, is not above providing distraction/stalling. What more allocating the rest of the Light to do the same? If they had been brainwashing Speedy from the beginning, then arrowing in on Superboy, Megan and Artemis was likely just to weaken the overall team morale. While Young Justice has certainly grown in strength and capabilities, the quickness with which Luthor bailed did not strike me as something that would happen if the Light had intended a grand showdown and defeat of Young Justice. Imho they just don't think them important enough, especially in favour of securing mind control over the adult Leaguers.

    From the way I see it, each battle in the minds of the Young Justice is a great one, a huge leap and a stepping stone. To the Light, it's just another in a long drawn war plan that they intend to see through. That's why it seems like they almost 'glory' in their 'minor-defeats', so to speak. But in any war objective, you win some you lose some, and the Light has patience enough to understand that.

    I enjoyed this episode. I hadn't been spoiled by previous reveals so the mole did come as a surprise to me. I'm pumped for the next episode and season, which we seem to be jumping right into (and no problems with that for me).
    "My brain is not a nice place to be"
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  3. #183
    thenameless is offline Newbie
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    Superboy knowing her real appearance

    Did anyone have a problem with Superboy knowing about Miss Martians real appearance even before she showed it?

    IMO i thought it really cheapened the reveal. I though the scene would have worked a lot better if Superboy was shocked.

    What do you think? Are you fine with how the scene played out?

  4. #184
    Gold Starz's Avatar
    Gold Starz is offline "Evil Resides In Crystal Cove"
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenameless View Post
    Did anyone have a problem with Superboy knowing about Miss Martians real appearance even before she showed it?

    IMO i thought it really cheapened the reveal. I though the scene would have worked a lot better if Superboy was shocked.

    What do you think? Are you fine with how the scene played out?
    You are aware a picture of a White Martian (presumably MM) appeared in Bereft, while Superboy and her were telepathically fighting Psimon, right?

    Also, since you have a problem with this, you also have a problem with most of Image's plot, which made it an issue in the first place.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Starz View Post
    You are aware a picture of a White Martian (presumably MM) appeared in Bereft, while Superboy and her were telepathically fighting Psimon, right?
    Whilst I didn't really think of it before Usual Suspects, this is why it would make sense that Superboy would know Miss Martian's true form.

  6. #186
    Geodude is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Starz View Post
    You are aware a picture of a White Martian (presumably MM) appeared in Bereft, while Superboy and her were telepathically fighting Psimon, right?
    Yeah, as Red Tornado would say, "The premise of his question is flawed."

  7. #187
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    The Talon is offline Ooga Chaka
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    I just wondered something. Will the clone end up continuing to be Red Arrow, while the real Roy ends up being Arsenal, or will it be vice versa?

  8. #188
    intangible is offline Member
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    My guess is that Clone Roy will continue being Red Arrow and Original Roy (if he survives) will stay Speedy and eventually become Arsenal, as Arsenal is famous for his prosthetic arm.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by intangible View Post
    My guess is that Clone Roy will continue being Red Arrow and Original Roy (if he survives) will stay Speedy and eventually become Arsenal, as Arsenal is famous for his prosthetic arm.
    I wouldn't say he's famous for it, he only had it for about a year.

  10. #190
    Dreyfus is offline Senior Member
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    I'd say he became a bit of an infamous sort of character due more to how he was being written in reaction to his daughter's death, especially in Rise of Arsenal. Really weird that he ended up being a clone in the show though. When mind controlled Batman said that at first I thought it was just going to be a way for the Light to get the team to turn against Red Arrow, who was on the run and avert suspicion from the League. I didn't think it would be true though.

  11. #191
    quigonkenny is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyfus View Post
    I'd say he became a bit of an infamous sort of character due more to how he was being written in reaction to his daughter's death, especially in Rise of Arsenal. Really weird that he ended up being a clone in the show though. When mind controlled Batman said that at first I thought it was just going to be a way for the Light to get the team to turn against Red Arrow, who was on the run and avert suspicion from the League. I didn't think it would be true though.
    Who's to say for certain that he is? Test tube brainwashing isn't the only way to implant a sleeper program like Roy had, and there's no particular reason why the one-armed redhead at the end of "Auld Acquaintance" has to be the original. This could just be The Light setting up to have a true cloned operative put into place in the hero community (one can never have too many contingency plans), and have the heroes do all the work of putting him there, as a bonus...

  12. #192
    Geodude is offline Member
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    My guess is clone!Roy will change his name to Connor Hawke but stay as Red Arrow. That'd solve the problem of having two guys named Roy Harper, give the clone his own identity, and bring another Arrow family character onto the show.

  13. #193
    RoryWilliams is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geodude View Post
    My guess is clone!Roy will change his name to Connor Hawke but stay as Red Arrow. That'd solve the problem of having two guys named Roy Harper, give the clone his own identity, and bring another Arrow family character onto the show.
    Since Connor Hawke was....black and Asian and a relatively rare non-white superhero, Christ I'd really hope they don't go that route.

    I'd think it'd be solved by the real Roy being a villain.

  14. #194
    Geodude is offline Member
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    From Wikipedia:

    [top]Ethnicity

    Connor is of mixed Asian, African, and European heritage (his mother was half Black and half Korean, and his father Ollie is white), and was originally depicted with Asiatic features, dark skin, and fair hair and eyes. However, this has not been consistently maintained across different artists and colorists, and when theGreen Arrow series was rebooted the character was depicted with European features and light skin (even though a childhood picture in the later Archer's Quest storyline depicted him with dark skin). Connor's original features were later restored with Dixon's Dragon Blood miniseries. He now appears to have a mix of Asian American and African facial features.
    Ethnicity isn't even always the same as the comics in Young Justice as it is. See Artemis and Paula.

  15. #195
    RoryWilliams is offline Senior Member
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    Still that'd seriously rub me the wrong way. Hopefully they don't pull that [nonsense].
    Last edited by Yojimbo; 04-24-2012 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Mod Note: Watch the Language

  16. #196
    Gold Starz's Avatar
    Gold Starz is offline "Evil Resides In Crystal Cove"
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    In regards to Paula and Artemis, those INCREASED diversity, but changing Connor Hawke would be decreasing diversity, and taking an interesting character out of play because on Earth-16, since GA is more mature, Hawke would probably be a reminder of more shameful times when he was a playboy.

  17. #197
    reflection is offline Member
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    To what extent the clone even Roy Harper? We haven't seen him in his secret identity. If he's just Red Arrow, there won't be any confusion.

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