But it's funny, because I think the opening of Doom with the Royal Flush Gang takes up way too much time, and really shouldn't even be in the movie, in my opinion. It may not be long enough to be viewed as two different film halves, like you say of CO2E, but it's more than just a guest cameo, because it's definitely and unnecessarily longer than it should be. I think it's an excessive amount of footage that's wasted on the Royal Flush Gang and could have better served the rest of the story by having the Legion of Doom in their place sooner or develop some other characters that needed it, like Cyborg.
Consider Yourself Impeached - Superman to Lex Luthor (Superman/Batman: Public Enemies)
Now that I have a couple of days' distance from the movie, things look a little different. Not necessarily better mind you :P.....
Yeah, I cut that plot too much slack. Cyborg spoke to her and she was able to understand him...so what? Diana couldn't hear the cops saying "We are police officers! You are confused! Stop attacking everyone!" Was there some detail I missed there? I'm not going to rewatch it to find out.I don't know, it just was silly. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna take down WW by convincing her everyone is Cheetah??" Meh.
As for the ripping of the arm, I thought that kind-of made sense...I dunno guys. I'm so used to Wonder Woman being a brute in DC animation that I was happy just to see her going "Don't worry, I'll get you to the hospital and help you." Yes, Diana would do that, but don't tell me she couldn't first find a way to neutralize Cheetah without going for a limb.
Wait - weren't they by a lake? Couldn't she just have thrown Cheetah far into the water? That would have solved things. That's also probably why they had to make sure Di didn't fly this time around, or we'd all be screaming at our sets "Fly a little to the left! To the left! Now, DROP HER!"
I think the point is that when Diana gets hit with drugs, all bets are off. Superman's weakness is magic, Diana's are drugs (came from Pharma-free Paradise Island, yo) and Batman's are...what exactly? Yeah that plan to trap Bruce that I can't even bear to think about....that didn't really make much sense either.
BigFatHairy, I concede you're right about J'onn and the fire stuff. It just wasn't fun to watch, and my mind did some recalling that was depressing And was it me, or did they REALLY milk that? That's the thing with these PG ratings...now they won't just have someone get shot on-screen, they've have them stumble around in agony and wail for 35 seconds...just because they can. Makes me long for the days where they found artful, creative solutions for on-screen violence. J'onn can fly, right? Why not fly upwards until there's less oxygen? Or to water, quickly? I'm not saying I have the answers, but making us watch a nice character stumbling around burning to death is awful.
I am glad they didn't go the "tie the bracelets together" route for Diana. I thought seeing her tied up in the rope/lasso in Starcrossed was subtle and clever. If you didn't know about that piece of her history, you wouldn't even notice it.
I just don't feel like the DC guys think Diana is cool. They'll happily go into detail about the GL Corps or Keystone City or Gotham or whatever, but they'll avoid mention of the Greek Gods. So without something personal to tie Diana to (like Carol with Hal, or the Waynes with Bruce), you end up trying to hurt Diana without personalizing it too much. For that reason, the "she'll never stop!" angle sorta worked well.
At least they didn't shoot nuthin' in her ear, for pity's sake. THAT would have been awful!
Batman: Apocalypse, where Big Barda hero worshiped her? Not to mention her amazing fight scenes in that movie and this one. I think it has more to do with your fondness for WW blinding you. GL and Batman (kinda J'Onn, since M'al is his brother in the comics, but that was never brought up here) were the only two that got really personal attacks. Superman and Flash's attacks were just as (im)personal as Wonder Woman's.
I didn't miss the Wonder Woman scenes, trust me I guess I just feel like there isn't as much of a personal link there. "Because you'll never stop!" and drugging her...well those aren't exactly as personal as having her thrown into a grave with Hippolyta, or reduced back into clay (her equivalent of being set on fire, I suppose) or reminded of how she'd lost Mindy Mayer or something.
Her strength as a warrior is never overlooked, but her strength of character is typically left on the back-burner. As are her various relationships.
And for the record, I found Metallo to be a total dud in this picture. His reveal as the jumper was bizarre (Supes didn't x-ray the man immediately? Not even to check his heart-rate?) and shooting Supes with kryptonite was...lame. I guess the twist there was setting it up as a suicide so Supes would show his caring side (nice) but K and Metallo are dull to me.
Superman didn't work for you either because kryptonite is dull?
All the attacks against the League were personalized for them. For someone like Hal, the attack had to sap his will to use the ring. So you sow doubt and fear, and the quickest way to do that is to make it personal. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the attack against Barry wasn't as directly linked to some aspect of his personal life, but it WAS tailored for the character's psychological profile and the way he'd react to a situation. This Barry is a forensic analyst, so his tendency is to try and find a solution that links a bunch of pieces with no solid connection between them (that's why we get the seemingly pointless scene where he confidently declares that what looks like a hit-and-run is really a murder). The brilliance of the Flash trap was that it gave him just enough pieces to make him think he could solve it, but didn't give him enough time to figure out how to pull those pieces together and solve the puzzle before he'd hit his physical limits. Also, the longer the Flash takes to try and solve the puzzle, the harder it will get to solve because the running is going to deprive his brain of oxygen. The trap may be impersonal, but it's extremely personalized to THIS Flash.
Diana's defining character traits are that she's a warrior and she's compassionate. You might be able to use the latter trait to lure her into a trap, but the former one is the one that both Mark Waid and Dwayne McDuffie latched onto for her trap. She's competitive and she won't give up, so the trap for her is to place her in a situation where she can't give up until she literally drops dead. The original comics did it through neural stimulation; the movie went with a more visual route. I'm not sure I quite accept the premise or the execution of the trap in either version, but any other route to attack Wonder Woman is going to involve heavy-duty divine or supernatural mojo and I'm going to presume that Batman ruled out those alternatives because of availability.
It's also worth pointing out that the "attack" against Batman was just to reveal to Bane who he really was and suggest the weak point of the Wayne's graves. The only thing that accomplished was to get Batman to drop his guard for Bane to get an edge in the fight early, and to fight Batman without his utility belt. Burying him alive with his father's corpse wasn't part of the plan to defeat Batman -- it was adding insult to injury by making him suffer in what Bane presumed would be his last moments on Earth. I think you can make a case for the supervillain foolishness of, "Now, instead of twisting your head off your neck, I shall place you in a complex deathtrap and then leave! MWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!" but that's not the same thing.
Then again, I liked the movie. As I mentioned in the review, McDuffie's done the "supervillains get an edge, superheroes counter it in the end" story a bunch of times now, and it's classic superhero fodder. This was really a "how are we getting there?" movie and I thought it was more successful than not.
Edward Liu | Disney Forum moderator | Toon Zone News Interviews Editor
"...ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
-- Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man
JL/JLU almost never showed J'onn getting attacked by fire (I think it only happened in Paradise Lost), so for me, there's still something startling about it. Superman being shot with kryptonite is much more common.The Wonder Woman scenes didn't work for you because it wasn't really personal to WW the way the fire attack was to J'onn, but the equivalent of the fire attack forSuperman didn't work for you either because kryptonite is dull?
You know what? You're quite right, in that this was Batman's plan to take out Diana, and GL's powers are based on his emotions in a way that hers aren't, so of course Batman would have to go the practical route with both of them. Either trying to shake Diana's faith in her powers from the Gods, or finding a way to sabotage a Green Lantern ring wouldn't have been practical. Batman would have had to do some kind of crazy stuff to achieve those goals, and the film would have come off too preposterous if he had succeeded.The original comics did it through neural stimulation; the movie went with a more visual route. I'm not sure I quite accept the premise or the execution of the trap in either version, but any other route to attack Wonder Woman is going to involve heavy-duty divine or supernatural mojo and I'm going to presume that Batman ruled out those alternatives because of availability.
Still, I didn't love the movie. It was okayish...and like the others felt quite a bit like bits and pieces of JL/JLU episodes restitched together into a movie. Here's a question - would this have been more entertaining/successful if they'd gone and made a full-out adaptation of Tower of Babel or an updated Super Friends vs the Legion of Doom flick? I did have a bit of a "Injustice For All" vibe from the way the plot had to hurry through villain introductions instead of fleshing them out. Perhaps if these two concepts had been made into two different films, we'd have heard more about Star Sapphire (for once) or gotten to know Cheetah or this new version of Metallo...
This has been my favorite DCU animated film so far. Except for Apocalypse, I haven't really liked any of the others so far, bu this felt like a genuine movie. The focus on the LEAGUE being attacked was both an interesting narrative take and made things feel more personal, plus making each attacker having a personal grudge against the leaguers made it more interesting then in the original story this was based on.
And this film featured Batman better then Crisis on 2 earths. The solution wasn't dependent on him being the biggest bad ass in the room, it was a group effort to save the world, and the whole betrayal aspect made his inclusion more interesting. I admit, for the League members anyway, that the designs were not very good, but the Legion of doom members looked awesome, as did the Royal flush gang. I also liked this animation style, it reminded me of the animated men in black show, and they did some very cool sequences, the solar flair being the best. I also think the plans here were better then in Tower of Babel, which relied on a lot of luck. And after everything that happens, the closing bit between Superman and Batman was just gold. Again, best one so far.
I just rewatched the first thirty minutes of Wonder Woman last night, and appreciate anew just how well-done that film was from every angle - story, character designs (except Ares, duh), backgrounds, music. It really does mop the floor with the rest of these films...
It's such a shame we can't get more movies of that caliber and with the same purpose, that being to give a great first movie/introduction to DC superheros who haven't had that yet. WW was a real movie, awesome in every way, and a true gem. It's such a crime it's not getting a sequel.
Now, Doom, on the other hand, is just about the exact opposite. We want to stay on topic, right .
I want to believe that the dead are not lost to us, that they speak to us, as part of something greater than us, greater than any alien force. And if you and I are powerless now, I want to believe that if we listen to it speak, it can give us the power to save ourselves.
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