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Series Description:
Young Justice - In Young Justice, being a teenager means proving yourself over and over—to peers, parents, teachers, mentors and, ultimately, to yourself. But what if you’re not just a normal teenager? What if you’re a teenage super hero? Are you ready to join the ranks of the great heroes and prove you’re worthy of the Justice League? That’s exactly what the members of Young Justice — Robin, Aqualad, Kid Flash, Superboy, Miss Martian and Artemis—will find out, whether they have what it takes to be a proven hero. This all-new series is produced by Warner Bros. Animation and based upon characters from DC Comics. Sam Register (Teen Titans, Ben 10, Batman: The Brave and the Bold) is the executive producer. Brandon Vietti (Batman: Under the Red Hood, Superman Doomsday, The Batman) and Greg Weisman (Gargoyles, The Spectacular Spider-Man, W.I.T.C.H.) are the producers.
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Previous Installments:
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 1
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 2
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 3
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 4
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 5
-Young Justice (Animated Series) News & Discussion Thread, Part 6
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Member
I guess I'll start us off with this, it was the last post from part 6, which happened to be mine.
Weisman answers that there are 7 members of the Light total, among a couple of other things on the Ask Greg site http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/....php?qid=13095 (sorry for the sloppy unhyperlinked link)
Even though I swore I counted 8 figures at the end of "Independence Day" Part Two (a.k.a. "Fireworks"), still cool for Mr. Weisman to answer the last question and state there are 7 total members. I'd guess the 8th was either a production mistake or one of the other assets (by assets, I mean folk like Dr. Desmond, Sportsmaster, or Sensei). Maybe, the assets aren't even allowed to know who other assets are, too, and Kobra was just a one-time client to produce the first wave of Kobra Venom.Originally Posted by Romanime
Last Updated: May 21, 2013
Member
I feel stupid even asking about it at this point, but am I the only one whose confused about the Gaurdian? I mean he's a superhero right, so at the end when he takes over Cadmus he's no longer being influenced by the G-nomes but still reporting to the light?
And would he be an asset like Black Manta? Does that mean that heroes are also part of the light?
Senior Member
The Justice League I don't think is part of the Light but Cadmus, and by extension the Guardian is. We also know that the Light is good at keeping secrets so, The Guardian probably doesn't know what the Light up to with Sportsmaster, Black Manta and all the other agents they have that are doing naughty things.
We also know that the Light is doing this stuff for the "greater good" since they consider what Superman is doing a good thing.
Only Dr. Desmond knew that the Cadmus Board of Directors was also The Light. The Guardian has no idea about this and is just an unwitting pawn of the group. As far as the world knows, the Light doesn't exist like Fight Club.
At this point, I only consider the villains seen directly talking to the Light as assets (Dr. Desmond, Sportsmaster, Sensei, and Black Manta) and changed my mind about Kobra. But just my opinion.
I'd have to rewatch that bit about Superman but sounded like cheap propaganda to me when I first heard it in November.
Last Updated: May 21, 2013
Member
Just rewatched the last couple of seconds of fireworks to see who talks to the light at the end, and realized that no one does, so your right maybe the Guardian doesnt realize whats happening. Also I just got a huge Lex vibe out of the last light member to talk in that episode, it even sounded like his DCAU voice actor, and the blur didnt have hair though it did look like he might be wearing the LexCorp Armor or something.
Member
Not to beat a dead horse, and I certainly don't want to unnecessarily stir up an argument here, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the Superman/Superboy relationship. I echo a lot of what Casey said in the final pages of the last thread because I prefer Superman to be morally perfect since he is supposed to be the quintessential leader whom everyone looks up to. Superman sets an example for others to follow because he is the greatest superhero (in the real world and within the DC Universe), so it's only expected that he conduct himself in such a manner to be worthy of the fact that everyone (even Batman) looks up to him. To be sure, there are differences across various interpretations, and this Superman is clearly meant to be a more down-to-earth, less god-like character, so it's only natural that he would make more mistakes than his counterparts. However, that only goes so far - at the end of the day, I still expect Superman to act like Superman on some basic level.
I'm not asking for Superman to be perfect, or be right all the time. Like others have said, that would turn Superman into a 1-dimensional character fairly quickly. But I expect him to at least TRY to do the right thing. I expect that when a young boy stands before him desperate to hear some comforting words, he tells the boy that everything's going to be ok and that he's going to make sure he's taken care of. I don't care if the boy's a random stranger or his clone produced from stolen DNA. Sure, Superman can be freaking out on the inside like anyone else would, but I still expect him to attempt to do what's right regardless of how uncomfortable/awkward/embarrassing the situation is. What we saw on screen in the pilot did not match up with my expectations of Superman (even the most flawed version) or even what a good person would do.
In all fairness, though, I remember reading at some point that this show's version wasn't your typical Superman, so I can't be too harsh when the creative team did warn us up front. And later episodes (namely, "Schooled") have done a much better job of getting some insight into this Superman, so I believe that my criticisms will eventually become moot as the season progresses.
Finally, I'm sure none of you meant to say this in an insulting way, but I personally take offense to the notion that this version is somehow more "real" because he has serious character flaws. I certainly agree that characters can't be perfect in every sense of the word because that makes the story pretty boring. However, I strongly disagree that we need to compromise a character's morality in order to make him an interesting, 3-dimensional person. I am also deeply offended by the idea that a character that has high moral standards is somehow unrealistic.
Look at JLU's Superman - he was certainly a well-written and fleshed out character, but he still held himself to the highest of moral standards. Sometimes, he wouldn't end out looking perfect because he could be tricked/brainwashed ("Legacy", "Clash") but he always tried to do the right thing even when the situation didn't work out in his favor. And, more importantly, he would apologize for his mistakes and try to correct them the second he felt he wasn't completely right in what he was doing (the beginning of "Panic in the Sky", the end of "Divided We Fall"). To me, this is an excellent example of how to do a "perfect" Superman while still making him an interesting character. You put him into difficult situations that really flesh out his personality but still have him be the good guy because he always tries to do the right thing regardless of whatever challenges life throws at him.
Senior Member
It's this whole issue with Superman that makes me not trust the League even more. I really just don't trust them. I think it is very well possible we have yet to see the true JL. What if these guys are clones or if they are they have been brainwashed? Why hide up in the Watchtower? It's all very suspicious. Their could be some kinda The Authority set up going on.
However, I thought it was interesting that Superman was talking to MM and WW about the issue. Two of the most perfect people to talk to about this, harkening back to the relationship in JL/JLU.
I give the Justice League the benefit of the doubt because the show's point of view is from the Young Justice team, whom are teenagers themselves. And any teenagers' perception of adults is a bit...slighted. They've given Batman and Aquaman good characterization but that's because they both have history of having a partner. Superman hasn't. I don't care what planet you're from or how invulnerable you are, coming face to face with a mysterious 16 week old teenage clone of you is just plain freaky. It'll take more than 2.5 months (and 9 episodes) to deal with such a reveal.
But since CN lists Superboy's real name as Connor Kent, and one can hope it's legitimate since everything else provided is, that Superman is going to come around and induct him into the Kent family, maybe even moving him to Smallville to have the same upbringing as he did.
If the show is ballsy enough to make this League brainwashed the whole time, kudos but I figured the secrecy and being in the Watchtower is due to the events hinted at in the story arc of Issues #1 and 2. An incursion and possible tragedy forced them to become more secretive in order to protect those they care about the most. They didn't want whatever happened to Snapper Carr to happen to them, hence some of the Leaguers taking on charges and training them in everything they know, opposite of the type of sidekick Carr was.
Last Updated: May 21, 2013
Member
I'm going to take the Superman thing a step farther. I think he *is* doing what he thinks is right. He tells Batman, "[Superboy] needs you. He needs Red." Perhaps Superman knows he has his own emotions to work out regarding Superboy existing from a piece of his stolen DNA. Superman is aware that right now, he WOULDN'T be the best person to welcome Superboy into the fold. Batman and Red Tornado, one familiar with being an orphan and the other without those pesky human emotions getting in the way, are perfect to guide Superboy. This isn't to say Superman will NEVER warm to Superboy, train him or even eventually accept him. Just that it's not the right thing for Big Blue to do right now.
"Young Justice" gives us a Superman who wisely knows his own limits. And he's making a good judgement call to sort out his own emotions before taking on the responsibility of mentoring Superboy. I'd wager an angry, unstable Superman would be a much worse influence than an absentee. It's a mature, carefully weighed decision, not an example of SuperD*ckery.
Member
I think the most obvious thing Greenman and posters like him are missing, besides what was said earlier in the other topic, is simply that this isn't Superman's show.
This is a show about the young heroes, a brand new show to boot. Superman's only ever going to appear sparingly, so his character arc can only unfold in small inches. And from a writing perspective, having Superman come around slowly gives Superboy's character the most dramatic tension to use for a brand new show.
Even if you really have a problem with Superman's portrayal (and I don't) that's not the point. It's just a plot device they're drawing out to juice up Superboy's character.
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Senior Member
I wouldn't even say that this Superman has serious character flaws. His reaction to the situation seems very normal to me. However if he told the League to get rid of Superboy or something like that, I'd consider that a major flaw.
He wasn't trying to do the right thing in "Clash". He was shown to be jealous of Captain Marvel, and fell for Luthor's trap because he did whatever he wanted and didn't listen to anyone else who was being rational (Captain Marvel).Look at JLU's Superman - he was certainly a well-written and fleshed out character, but he still held himself to the highest of moral standards. Sometimes, he wouldn't end out looking perfect because he could be tricked/brainwashed ("Legacy", "Clash") but he always tried to do the right thing even when the situation didn't work out in his favor. And, more importantly, he would apologize for his mistakes and try to correct them the second he felt he wasn't completely right in what he was doing (the beginning of "Panic in the Sky", the end of "Divided We Fall"). To me, this is an excellent example of how to do a "perfect" Superman while still making him an interesting character. You put him into difficult situations that really flesh out his personality but still have him be the good guy because he always tries to do the right thing regardless of whatever challenges life throws at him.
Member
Normal for a regular person, yes. Normal for a person who is supposed to be a moral compass for others and is supposed to set an example for everyone else, including other superheroes? That I would disagree with.
I don't disagree that he was jealous, but I think events unfolded as they did primarily because he was so furious that the rest of the world couldn't see Luthor for the snake that he was that it was easy for Lex to trick him. So when Captain Marvel tries to reason with him to be patient, he sees it as Marvel being naive to Luthor's true nature. Couple this with the imminent threat of a bomb going off and Lex secretly whispering to Mercy to secure his escape route, and it's not difficult to see why Superman wouldn't want to sit around and talk things out when he thinks Lex is trying to deceive them.He wasn't trying to do the right thing in "Clash". He was shown to be jealous of Captain Marvel, and fell for Luthor's trap because he did whatever he wanted and didn't listen to anyone else who was being rational (Captain Marvel).
Still, even if we disagree on this one example, I'd argue that there are countless other instances of the DCAU Superman that prove my point.
I will also accept, like RedDeath said, that this isn't a serious issue because Superman is at best a minor character in this show whose only role at this point is to further Superboy's story. And even then, this arc is fairly minuscule given all the things that are going on with the Light. So I understand within this context why Superman is presented this way in the show - I simply disagree with the creative choice.
Member
See, THAT's wrong. Superman is never supposed to be the character who is perfect in every way and is the ultimate moral compass for other heroes to follow. That's a superficial take on the character that was phased out in the 80s.
He's still a moral character, and he still inspires people, but the heart is that he's a human character who struggles with the same moral choices we do. Ultimately he comes out on top, but not before going through the same emotional struggle we would. That's been the heart of Superman's character since John Byrne's "Man of Steel" reboot.
When I said that, I didn't just mean it as a plot contrivance, though that's certainly true. I also meant that since it's not a show about Superman the camera isn't going to spend time showing his emotional struggling with the topic. He's not a main protagonist, so they're not going to spend the screen time to show him sitting in the Fortress of Solitude beating himself over what he should do for Superboy. We're never really going to see "His side of the story".I will also accept, like RedDeath said, that this isn't a serious issue because Superman is at best a minor character in this show whose only role at this point is to further Superboy's story. And even then, this arc is fairly minuscule given all the things that are going on with the Light. So I understand within this context why Superman is presented this way in the show - I simply disagree with the creative choice.
So it's not a question of if he's moral or not, it's a question of his struggle isn't going to be featured on-screen, Superboy's is.
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How about everyone put themselves in Clark's shoes.
Imagine you're at work one day, and just when you're about to go home... a yougner clone of you just shows up with no real explanation as to why he was made. Even though he looks like you, he's really creepy, has anger issues and seems to be attached to you.
What would you do? Just unwittingly take him home and play Madden with him?
Member
I actually meant it in the way you described, not to say that he is supposed to be perfect from the start. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I just feel that as someone who is supposed to be moral and inspiring, I would expect him to make better choices than the average person even though he deals with the same emotional struggles as everyone else. Therefore, I feel that he should be held to a higher moral standard than other superheroes. So while his actions in the pilot would be understandable and even acceptable for anyone else, I'm much more critical of Superman since I expect more out that character.
Ok, I see what you mean. And I'd still agree with you since the show's about the kids, not the adults, so it's only right that we see the story from Superboy's point of view. Not to mention I personally find Superboy's side of the story more interesting given his history and the whole "neglected child" angle the show's going with.When I said that, I didn't just mean it as a plot contrivance, though that's certainly true. I also meant that since it's not a show about Superman the camera isn't going to spend time showing his emotional struggling with the topic. He's not a main protagonist, so they're not going to spend the screen time to show him sitting in the Fortress of Solitude beating himself over what he should do for Superboy. We're never really going to see "His side of the story".
So it's not a question of if he's moral or not, it's a question of his struggle isn't going to be featured on-screen, Superboy's is.
Senior Member
Well, I only not trust Superman because I don't really trust the League. I don't have a huge issue with his reaction, but it feels suspicious. Notice it was only when they discovered this Superboy, that the League said uh oh, the kids have Superman too. With Super hearing, super strength, etc. They have a very powerful weapon, lets keep them on a close leash, monitor them with MM, and keep them happy for the time being, until we can figure what to do about this Superboy lest the challenge rises.
That's the kids perspective I can imagine.
Senior Member
You keep bringing up how you don't trust the League but I don't get why. The only sneaky thing they've done is have a secret base that nobody knows about. I actually think that's a good idea. Look what happened to the League in JLU when Cadmus knew where they were. Their base was assaulted by missiles, clones of the Ultimen and a cloned Supergirl. They did some massive damage to the place, and some of those purple shirts must've died during that assault.
the fool.
I concur, this seems even beyond The Question-like theorising. Why again, don't you trust them? They do want to keep them close, yes, but how is this some sort of sinister control rather than and extension of the parenting/mentor roles they fulfill (or in the case of Clark, are supposed to fulfill)? Bruce has already had a conversation with Superman about this, and not in a 'we should make the boy-clone feel accepted, play your part', but a serious, one to one chat about the importance of being the person Superboy looks up to.
k.s. and the rest of us are right to be critical of Superman's actions (which is to be distinguished from the portrayal of Superman, but let's not go into), but from this new dynamic with Superboy. Batman has Robin, and we've got tinges of that need from Dick Grayson to prove himself/be accepted/be ?loved by Bruce, as with any father-son relationship. Speedy's dealing with being replaced. Superboy as neglected completely. Aqualad will have his own daddy issues to come, so on, so forth. I just don't see how it means that the Justice League are somehow plotting something. They are the heroes, after all.
Last edited by klammed; 03-10-2011 at 04:24 PM.
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