Has Bruce Timm ever drawn a Cassandra Cain Batgirl?

[frostedone]

Does anyone know if Bruce Timm has ever draw a Cassandra Cain Batgirl?

We have seen plenty of Babs and even a Batwoman. It would be interesting to see his take on Batgirl III.

[ABrown]

Don't know if there's any truth to this. But here's what Wikipedia says, I think they're referring to the first episode of "The Savage Time" or whatever it was called:

"In one episode of the Justice League series based in the DCAU, a girl is seen with Tim Drake (in an alternate timeline) that bears a resemblance to Cassandra. The creators of the show have stated this as an uncredited cameo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassand...In_other_media

[Silly McGooses]

I don't remember that at all, only the Dick/Barbara cameo.

[Tim Thomason]

He's referring to the AU Dick/Barbara cameo, which also features Tim Drake and Cassie Cain, or Tim Drake and Annie Clayface, or Tim Drake and an undefined character, or two undefined characters:

[frostedone]

Thanks, I knew about the cameo, but I was talking more about a drawing or painting.

Thanks though!

[Tim Thomason]

Oh yeah, sorry. I was mostly answering ABrown and Silly with my post, but neglected the original question.

I've heard that "Bruce Timm hates Cassandra Cain," but I doubt that's true. I'm sure he's had to draw her at some point (I can't find it in the currently-being-rebuilt "Bruce Timm Gallery"). There's a few Timm-style Cain images out there (I've seen two, but I'm sure there's plenty more), but I don't even think Timm ever drew for a comic featuring Cain in any capacity (correct me if I'm wrong!).

[Naninou]

Does anyone know if Bruce Timm has ever draw a Cassandra Cain Batgirl?

We have seen plenty of Babs and even a Batwoman. It would be interesting to see his take on Batgirl III.

Here's my opinion:

In many ways Cassandra Cain is irrelevant. She's not the original Batgirl. She's not the last Batgirl. She's not the most populair Batgirl.

For the record, Cassandra Cain is now another ex-Batgirl in the comics. SPOILER / Stephanie Brown is Batgirl now.

As source material for cartoons and movies, only a few books are really relevant. Batman's origin, and the books that define the villains, but the DCAU's take on how far certain characters can develope without stretching the continuity out of proportion is much better then what's going on in the comicbooks since the early 90's.
DC comics has made a career out of stretching their superheroes out of proportion in the comicbook continuity, putting different people in the costume of one specific hero, one after the other, and Cassandra Cain is just one of those characters.

Why did Timm draw plenty of Babs? Because in the DCAU Barbara Gordon is the first, last, and ONLY Batgirl, and in my opinion that's a heck of a lot better then repetative costume trading in the comicbooks universe.

Dick Grayson growing up and becoming Nightwing was pretty realistic, and a replacement Robin, Tim Drake, made sense, but after that, it's getting stretchy and fuzzy.

With Batgirl, they simply did the same thing with a slightly different twist, in the sense that Babs was shot instead of merely becoming a new hero, but in the end, it's simply the same story. "Robin - Nightwing - new Robin" = equal to "Batgirl - Oracle - new Batgirl" and in both cases we now are looking at New new new Robins and new new new Batgirls in the comics. Read them if you like, but don't expect fans of the DCAU be too interested in Batgirl III or IV.

The obvious reasons why we never saw Jason Todd in the DCAU or why Babs became Oracle are because these storylines are not supposed to be in a cartoon, but it did prevent the story from stretching beyond any sense of realism and believability.

The way Timm and Dini wrote the story from BTAS up to BB, made it feel much more like we're watching the characters lifetime in a realistic aging context. Not extremely realistic, but the DCAU has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Beyond the evolution of Dick Grayson to Nightwing, there really is no need for the type of character replacement from the comics.

I don't feel like the DCAU lacks anything because it doesn't have Oracle or Cassandra Cain, because i think both, or at least Cain, are no real relevant characters, but the product of continuity stretching.

[frostedone]

Spoilers












/\ I know that Cass is no longer Batgirl and is irreverent to the DCAU, but I was just wondering what she would look like in his style.

I say the "Batgirl Beyond" art on DA, but that is just a fan image.

When was it said that Bruce Timm hates Cassandra? Why would he hate her?

For the mainstream comics maybe she can move on to a Nightwing like role. She just gave up the Batgirl costume pretty abruptly.

Paul Dini is going to write her in Streets of Gotham so that is some good consolation.

Still it would be nice to see a Timm style Batgirl III.

[N0-1_H3r3]

The obvious reasons why we never saw Jason Todd in the DCAU or why Babs became Oracle are because these storylines are not supposed to be in a cartoon, but it did prevent the story from stretching beyond any sense of realism and believability.

Thing is, while Barbara's injuries that led to her becoming Oracle aren't really suitable for a cartoon technically aimed at children (as in, that's the target demographic; though good stories care not for age or medium), the character of Oracle (discrete from the incident that resulted in her creation) is a good one, with plenty of interesting stories to tell. It's a long way from simply being a 'crippled batgirl'. For me, Oracle is a far more interesting character now than she ever was as Batgirl. Similarly, for me, in spite of the name, the Tim Drake we see in TNBA is not the real Tim Drake, but rather some strange hybrid of Tim and his dead-but-not-anymore predecessor, Jason Todd - a Tim Drake In Name Only. My favoured incarnation of Nightwing is the one who made his peace with Batman years ago, the grown-up son rather than the resentful outcast, and a man with deeper ties to the DCU than any other character.

there really is no need for the type of character replacement from the comics.

Technically, as timelines are fluid in comic books (because otherwise Bruce Wayne would be in his 90s, having become Batman in the late 1930s, and similarly Spider-Man would be a middle-aged man rather than the teenager/young adult he's most iconic as), you don't need to replace characters there either. It's about telling stories, and character death and retirement is a means for those stories to be told.

but don't expect fans of the DCAU be too interested in Batgirl III or IV.

I beg to differ here. I'm a fan of the DCAU, one who has spent hundreds of hard-earned £ getting copies of the shows on DVD through nonstandard avenues because they aren't available in the shops in the UK and I'm not willing to pirate them. I'm interested in Batgirl III (the numbering depends on who you count - Helena Bertinelli was only Batgirl briefly, and if you still count the Silver Age Bette Kane Batgirl, who was the original one, then technically Stephanie Brown is the fifth, not the third; she is, however, still the only person to have ever been both Robin and Batgirl) - to the point where I picked up the first issue of the new Batgirl series this week, alongside Batman: Streets of Gotham and Blackest Night: Superman 1 of 3. I've been reading Red Robin, and the new Batman & Robin, and Detective Comics now that they've been taken over by Batwoman. I happily watch Batman: The Brave and The Bold, eagerly await the next comic book based movies... in short, I don't limit myself to one incarnation of a single set of characters. Why should I limit myself like that, when there are plenty of interesting stories to be told in other incarnations of other characters?

I don't feel like the DCAU lacks anything because it doesn't have Oracle or Cassandra Cain, because i think both, or at least Cain, are no real relevant characters, but the product of continuity stretching.

So just because a character adopts the same iconography and public persona as one of your favourites renders her inconsequential? With characters like Batman and his associates, imagery is everything, because they're meant to scare the criminals. This is the big theme behind the Batman Reborn story arc currently ongoing - Gotham needs Batman, whether or not Bruce Wayne can be there to wear the mask, because the notion of Batman stems the tide against the corruption and villainy that infests Gotham. It's nothing to do with replacing Bruce Wayne (he'll be back in a year or so; his death was written with an escape clause), but rather with maintaining the legacy and the symbolism.

Can't a character be judged on his or her own merits, rather than on the merits of notional predecessors? Cassandra Cain is a character who grew and became something more than what she was to begin with, which surely has to mean something.

Everyone has their favoured incarnations of characters; the fact that so many characters have so many different incarnations (whether it's a new face behind the mask - the Green Lanterns or Flashes are good examples of this, as are any of the five different Robins - or an old face reimagined for a different medium - you can't tell me that the Batman in The Brave and the Bold is the same guy being played by Christian Bale in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, even if they are both "Bruce Wayne/Batman") gives people choices, and provides an ever-increasing number of avenues for story-telling.

The original poster was simply asking if there were any pictures done by Bruce Timm, in his distinctive style, of Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. That's all - no reason for you to leap to the defence of the DCAU incarnation of Barbara Gordon, no slight against that character's existence whatsoever, nor even anything to do with the stories of the DCAU - just a question about the possibility of some artwork existing.

Your post strikes me as something of an overreaction...

[Naninou]

Spoilers












/\ I know that Cass is no longer Batgirl and is irreverent to the DCAU, but I was just wondering what she would look like in his style.

I say the "Batgirl Beyond" art on DA, but that is just a fan image.

When was it said that Bruce Timm hates Cassandra? Why would he hate her?

For the mainstream comics maybe she can move on to a Nightwing like role. She just gave up the Batgirl costume pretty abruptly.

Paul Dini is going to write her in Streets of Gotham so that is some good consolation.

Still it would be nice to see a Timm style Batgirl III.

I never heard anything about Timm hating Cain, and i can't imagine that would be true in such a direct choice of words, but i think he isn't a fan of her for the same reasons i explained.

[Hollaman]

Here's my opinion:

In many ways Cassandra Cain is irrelevant. She's not the original Batgirl. She's not the last Batgirl. She's not the most populair Batgirl.

For the record, Cassandra Cain is now another ex-Batgirl in the comics. SPOILER / Stephanie Brown is Batgirl now.

As source material for cartoons and movies, only a few books are really relevant. Batman's origin, and the books that define the villains, but the DCAU's take on how far certain characters can develope without stretching the continuity out of proportion is much better then what's going on in the comicbooks since the early 90's.
DC comics has made a career out of stretching their superheroes out of proportion in the comicbook continuity, putting different people in the costume of one specific hero, one after the other, and Cassandra Cain is just one of those characters.

Why did Timm draw plenty of Babs? Because in the DCAU Barbara Gordon is the first, last, and ONLY Batgirl, and in my opinion that's a heck of a lot better then repetative costume trading in the comicbooks universe.

Dick Grayson growing up and becoming Nightwing was pretty realistic, and a replacement Robin, Tim Drake, made sense, but after that, it's getting stretchy and fuzzy.

With Batgirl, they simply did the same thing with a slightly different twist, in the sense that Babs was shot instead of merely becoming a new hero, but in the end, it's simply the same story. "Robin - Nightwing - new Robin" = equal to "Batgirl - Oracle - new Batgirl" and in both cases we now are looking at New new new Robins and new new new Batgirls in the comics. Read them if you like, but don't expect fans of the DCAU be too interested in Batgirl III or IV.

The obvious reasons why we never saw Jason Todd in the DCAU or why Babs became Oracle are because these storylines are not supposed to be in a cartoon, but it did prevent the story from stretching beyond any sense of realism and believability.

The way Timm and Dini wrote the story from BTAS up to BB, made it feel much more like we're watching the characters lifetime in a realistic aging context. Not extremely realistic, but the DCAU has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Beyond the evolution of Dick Grayson to Nightwing, there really is no need for the type of character replacement from the comics.

I don't feel like the DCAU lacks anything because it doesn't have Oracle or Cassandra Cain, because i think both, or at least Cain, are no real relevant characters, but the product of continuity stretching.

One of my pet peeves with the DC Comics Universe is their excessive use of Legacy Characters. I mean in the Batman Family alone there are like 5 different Robins and Batgirls. Why do they feel the need to have various characters that share the same superhero name and ability.

That's why I like the DCAU over the regular DC Comics Universe because they don't go "coocoo for coco puffs" and they use legacy/family characters in moderation. I really don't see the point of having Cassie Cain be Batgirl.

[Jono11]

In many ways Cassandra Cain is irrelevant. She's not the original Batgirl. She's not the last Batgirl. She's not the most populair Batgirl.

And all of that only happened because bad writers who felt the same way you do decided she needed to be written as a villain. Everything that is wrong with the character stems from the OYL arc of Robin.

Cassandra Cain is just one of those characters.

It's a fair point that there's too much legacy stuff going on, but seriously, have you read any of the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff? She's a more interesting sidekick than most A-list superheroes. Barbara Gordon, before The Killing Joke, was a cipher. Bland and uninteresting. Cassandra Cain, as a character, was an exploration of redemption and rising above what one's life "should" be.

With Batgirl, they simply did the same thing with a slightly different twist, in the sense that Babs was shot instead of merely becoming a new hero, but in the end, it's simply the same story. "Robin - Nightwing - new Robin" = equal to "Batgirl - Oracle - new Batgirl"

That's silly. There wasn't a new Batgirl for about a decade after Barbara was shot. Babs didn't even become Oracle until the mid-90s.

I don't feel like the DCAU lacks anything because it doesn't have Oracle or Cassandra Cain, because i think both, or at least Cain, are no real relevant characters, but the product of continuity stretching.

Oracle and Cassandra Cain are both more interesting than Barbara Gordon as Batgirl ever was, in any medium, in any story. There simply is not a single story featuring Babs as Batgirl that has anything special going for it.

The original poster was simply asking if there were any pictures done by Bruce Timm, in his distinctive style, of Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. That's all - no reason for you to leap to the defence of the DCAU incarnation of Barbara Gordon, no slight against that character's existence whatsoever, nor even anything to do with the stories of the DCAU - just a question about the possibility of some artwork existing.

Your post strikes me as something of an overreaction...

It was a little silly, wasn't it? It's like the way Green Lantern fans get when you even mention the one that isn't their favorite. "Oh, I was reading one of those old Kyle Rayner issues--" "KYLE RAYNER IS POOP ONLY HAL JORDAN MATTERS."

[frostedone]

And all of that only happened because bad writers who felt the same way you do decided she needed to be written as a villain. Everything that is wrong with the character stems from the OYL arc of Robin.

It's a fair point that there's too much legacy stuff going on, but seriously, have you read any of the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff? She's a more interesting sidekick than most A-list superheroes. Barbara Gordon, before The Killing Joke, was a cipher. Bland and uninteresting. Cassandra Cain, as a character, was an exploration of redemption and rising above what one's life "should" be.

That's silly. There wasn't a new Batgirl for about a decade after Barbara was shot. Babs didn't even become Oracle until the mid-90s.

Oracle and Cassandra Cain are both more interesting than Barbara Gordon as Batgirl ever was, in any medium, in any story. There simply is not a single story featuring Babs as Batgirl that has anything special going for it.

It was a little silly, wasn't it? It's like the way Green Lantern fans get when you even mention the one that isn't their favorite. "Oh, I was reading one of those old Kyle Rayner issues--" "KYLE RAYNER IS POOP ONLY HAL JORDAN MATTERS."

I agree. Cassandra Cain is my favorite Batgirl and DCU heronine because she is so interisting. She is original and she can take care of herself. She is also the best martial artist in the DCU. She has depth and a very good origin story.

Actually I posted this thread in the hopes that a Bruce Timm Cass would be a pick-me-up now that Cass is no longer Batgirl. Hopefully she moves on to a Nightwing/Red Robin like role like Dick and Tim did.

Still out of everyone who could have taken up Cassandra's title I am glad it was Stephanie. She deserved an upgrade.

[EmaHalJordan]

I want to see more Barbara like Batgirl in animation.

BARBARA GORDON IS THE BEST AND ICONIC BATGIRL!

[Animation Freak]

I want to see more Barbara like Batgirl in animation.

BARBARA GORDON IS THE BEST AND ICONIC BATGIRL!

That's debatable. Many comics fans prefer Babs as Oracle and think Cassandra's the best Batgirl. This is part of the problem of DC has now: a bunch of Silver Age fanboys running the company, thinking things were better when they read the comics. Nit that there aren't some things I disagree with (Yeah, Hal Jordan got a raw deal in the 90s, so I don't mind them fixing that.)

[Robin2099]

That's why I like the DCAU over the regular DC Comics Universe because they don't go "coocoo for coco puffs" and they use legacy/family characters in moderation. I really don't see the point of having Cassie Cain be Batgirl.

Because Batgirl is still a popular character, and at one point in term her popularity was greater than Barabara's ever was when she was Batgirl. For that matter, the only reason Bab's is the 'iconic" Batgirl is because of the 60's TV series, same as Dick Grayson as Robin. For that matter, what's wrong with legacy characters? Dick Grayson became more popular with fans, when he was Nightwing, and Tim Drake became the most popular Robin when he took over. Same with Wally West, Kyle Rayner and others.

[Animation Freak]

To address something I'd missed earlier...

That's silly. There wasn't a new Batgirl for about a decade after Barbara was shot. Babs didn't even become Oracle until the mid-90s.

Actually, Babs became Oracle in 1989, years before the mid-90s.

[Jono11]

To address something I'd missed earlier...



Actually, Babs became Oracle in 1989, years before the mid-90s.

I always forget about the Suicide Squad.

[W.C.Reaf]

The only bit Timm styled Cass art I've seen is this, which is a fans interpretation of the No Mans Land story in that style.

Personally I find Cass a much more interesting character than Babs as Batgirl was. Oracle was also something better for Babs than Batgirl was. imo.

I'm curious as to what makes Babs "the definitive Batgirl". What does she bring to the character that makes her special? She wasn't the first (Betty Kane was), she wasn't the best (imo), and, if I remember rightly, she didn't even really have her own book (which Cass did).

As far as I can tell the only reason she's considered the best is that she's been in more outside mediums than the others (TV, cartoons, and movie).

[Naninou]

And all of that only happened because bad writers who felt the same way you do decided she needed to be written as a villain. Everything that is wrong with the character stems from the OYL arc of Robin.

No, it wasn't all just because at some point in some chapter they made her evil, it was because the character is not as interesting as her fans would like her to be. Because she never caught the public's eye the way Barbara Gordon did. When a character doesn't work, she just doesn't work no matter how hard anyone tries to make her interesting, and this is most likely one of the reasons we're now getting a new Batgirl.

It's a fair point that there's too much legacy stuff going on, but seriously, have you read any of the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff? She's a more interesting sidekick than most A-list superheroes. Barbara Gordon, before The Killing Joke, was a cipher. Bland and uninteresting. Cassandra Cain, as a character, was an exploration of redemption and rising above what one's life "should" be.

Yes, i read more then enough Cain stuff, but i always felt like they were desperately trying to make her interesting. The whole dramatic history and intense dark psychology of the character and her story simply come off to me as being too pretentious. Either way you look at it, it's still another person who dresses up as a Bat to fight crime, and in that context they simply went overboard with Cain in trying to make her extra dark and interesting.

That's silly. There wasn't a new Batgirl for about a decade after Barbara was shot. Babs didn't even become Oracle until the mid-90s.

It doesn't really matter how many years there were between the character costume switching, the fact that it happens makes it similar. It has nothing to do with making the superhero legendary. What they did with Batman Beyond, where an aging Batman hands over the cape and cowl to a young man, that makes sense, but the way DC comics has handled things is just out of a desperate attempt to get attention, and i simply like how the DCAU kept things more basic in that sense.

Oracle and Cassandra Cain are both more interesting than Barbara Gordon as Batgirl ever was, in any medium, in any story. There simply is not a single story featuring Babs as Batgirl that has anything special going for it.

...and you say i replied on a basis of Babs-fandom? You're posting personal opinion as fact.
The fact is that a lot of people think Babs is a better character then Cassandra because Babs is the daughter of Commissioner Gordon. No matter how serious and dark psychological drama stories they write about Cain, she'll never have that going for her.
The dynamic of Babs being both Batgirl and Gordon's little girl is more interesting then Cain's background, because it's closer to home, and because it plays with the idea of a fragile secret that stands between her and her own father.

Not every superhero in Gotham has to have a mind and body full of scars to be interesting, so i don't see that as a reason to consider Cass more interesting then Babs.

As i said, i don't care for Cain BECAUSE they were too desperate about making her interesting. We're talking about superheroes here. There has to be a basic psychology for the character's motivations, but if you go beyond that, you risk going overboard, and that's what they did with Cassandra Cain.
If you want extremely dark realistic psychological drama, go read Nabokov, but as long as we're talking about people who dress up in spandex and leather costumes to fight criminals, there's a limit to how serious you can take that, and The Dark Knight movie played things close to the edge of that, but Cassandra Cain went overboard. Cassandra's Batgirl is overdone in terms of darkness.

Cassandra Cain was born out of a hunger for more realistic dark and psychological storylines and characters that was caused by the horrible campy comedy portrayal of the Batman characters in the Schumacher movies, but the Cassandra Cain story just went too far in the opposite direction. Simply too intense for the mainstream audience.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all against stories being dumbed down and censored for a wider audience, but in the case of Batgirl, Cassandra is just too intense. Her darkness goes way beyond that of Batman himself, and in that sense, i find the new Batwoman much more fitting in the cast then Cain ever did, because the Batwoman has the look of a superhero like Batman, Robin, and Nightwing...

If you put Cassandra Cain's Batgirl next to Batwoman, Batman, and Barbara's Batgirl, she looks out of context. She doesn't look like a member of the same team, because she looks 10 times darker then the one people call "The Dark Knight". (I'd have absolutely no problem with it if comicbook Batman got over his blue/grey period, and just went for black)

Diversity is a great thing, but she was never truly Batgirl like Dick Grayson is Nightwing. Tim Drake's Robin costume was a perfect update for the character, simply because Dick Grayson's Robin looked like he was one of TinkerBell's girlfriends, so making Robin look more serious was something that needed to happen with or without Tim Drake, but in the case of Barbara Gordon's Batgirl costume, she looked perfect for the name and the role. She looked more serious then Robin, and pretty close to Batman's.
Either way, whether Cassandra fans like it or not, Barbara's Batgirl does look and feel more iconic to a larger audience for several reasons.

It was a little silly, wasn't it? It's like the way Green Lantern fans get when you even mention the one that isn't their favorite. "Oh, I was reading one of those old Kyle Rayner issues--" "KYLE RAYNER IS POOP ONLY HAL JORDAN MATTERS."

...yeah, or like how Cassandra fans react when someone says he thinks Barbara Gordon is a better Batgirl then Cassandra Cain.