toonzoneAnimation News : Blog : Forums : TV Schedules : Wiki : Comics : Hosted : CD! : Forums  
Loading

toonzone forums - Powered by vBulletin

View Poll Results: Which of these two is your favorite?

Voters
56. You may not vote on this poll
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 43
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    5,297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Like This Thread!
    Well batman was the better show all together Superman TAS does have my favorite DCAU episode of all time.

    Oh if you look at Early batman TAs episodes it had the same problem early Superman episodes had. With the exception of a "heart of ice" and a "On leather Wings" here and there the first half of batman TAs's first season was pretty poor.

  2. #22
    Munkiman's Avatar
    Munkiman is offline Hail Hydra.
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Colbert Nation
    Posts
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatHairyDeal View Post
    However, STAS is a show about Superman lite. He's not as tough as he can be, not as smart as he can be, not as cool as he can be. I'm a Superman fanatic, and STAS disappointed a lot. Other than a handful of great episodes, there are a lot of rather mundane ones that don't really bring Superman to new heights.
    I find that with Superman's powers, it's not about just being as powerful as possible (and the idea that he's "super-smart" has always seemed kind of lame to me, it's more interesting when he has a lot of power but normal human intelligence). When you're doing Superman right, it's more about finding a balance. They didn't always get it perfect in STAS, but I felt like they still did pretty good in that regard.
    "I've never met a man so tired of being alive."

  3. #23
    Wonderwall's Avatar
    Wonderwall is online now Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    7,968
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Guy View Post
    Exactly. If you have very little knowledge about Superman then you're gonna love the show. Otherwise, you're not gonna think much of it. With Batman they hit all the right notes. With Superman they never really got it right.
    I know lots of Superman and I still love the show. Superman is a harder character to do than Batman and maybe that's why sometimes there were missteps. But overall they got more right than wrong. STAS to me is like an updated 40s/50s era Superman.

  4. #24
    BigFatHairyDeal's Avatar
    BigFatHairyDeal is offline Defender of the Universe
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,974
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkiman View Post
    I find that with Superman's powers, it's not about just being as powerful as possible (and the idea that he's "super-smart" has always seemed kind of lame to me, it's more interesting when he has a lot of power but normal human intelligence). When you're doing Superman right, it's more about finding a balance. They didn't always get it perfect in STAS, but I felt like they still did pretty good in that regard.
    Except it's not balanced, it's arguably the weakest incarnation of Superman that had a wide audience by a lot. This is no middle-of-the-road representation of Superman's power set, it's an outlier all the way on the low end. Guys like Grant Morrison and Richard Donner did a good job of reminding us that Superman is a more fun-filled topic not when you limit his powers to make up some artificial challenges, but when you expand on the ideas and be really creative with it. In fact, I like pointing out how in Season 2 of JL Superman saw a major power boost and, not so coincidentally, the second season beat the first season in almost every single aspect.

    You can also tone down "super intelligence," but audiences always appreciate a hero who are creative and a step ahead of their foes. Think MacGyver, James Bond, or (staying in the DCU) Batman. I should've added "Mxyzptlk" to the list of great episodes, because that's one of the few times we got to see a proactive Superman who readily outsmarted his opponent at every turn. The show is just not as interesting when things get so predictable that every moderately strong assault hits Superman squarely and hurts him, or every time he uses a cheesy looking suit to protect himself the suit invariably gets broken. The formula was overdone and got stale quickly, and really added no true depth to the show. And the show terribly hurt Superman's "cool" credibility when Bruce Wayne had arguably a more serious relationship with Lois than Superman or Clark Kent.

  5. #25
    Old Guy is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,542
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderwall View Post
    I know lots of Superman and I still love the show. Superman is a harder character to do than Batman and maybe that's why sometimes there were missteps. But overall they got more right than wrong. STAS to me is like an updated 40s/50s era Superman.
    The problem with STAS is that it was too much of an action show. BTAS was a drama with action. In STAS too much time and effort was put into having Superman fighting villains. And, as a result they ignored the heart of Superman, Clark Kent. In Batman, both Bruce Wayne and Batman are the same character. The "public" Bruce Wayne is the disguise. So, you can ignore that if you want. In Superman, there really isn't a disguise. Both Superman and Clark Kent are different aspects of his personality. But they treated Clark Kent like a disguise and pushed him to the side. That was their mistake. Clark Kent needed to be as big a part on the show as Superman.

    Another thing that hurt having STAS focus too much on action is that Superman doesn't have that many good villains. He has like 3 or 4. Around that time you also had the Spider-Man cartoon on FOX Kids which also focused more on the action than on Peter Parker's day to day life. But there they got away with it cause Spidey's villains are awesome.

  6. #26
    Munkiman's Avatar
    Munkiman is offline Hail Hydra.
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Colbert Nation
    Posts
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatHairyDeal View Post
    Except it's not balanced, it's arguably the weakest incarnation of Superman that had a wide audience by a lot. This is no middle-of-the-road representation of Superman's power set, it's an outlier all the way on the low end. Guys like Grant Morrison and Richard Donner did a good job of reminding us that Superman is a more fun-filled topic not when you limit his powers to make up some artificial challenges, but when you expand on the ideas and be really creative with it. In fact, I like pointing out how in Season 2 of JL Superman saw a major power boost and, not so coincidentally, the second season beat the first season in almost every single aspect.

    You can also tone down "super intelligence," but audiences always appreciate a hero who are creative and a step ahead of their foes. Think MacGyver, James Bond, or (staying in the DCU) Batman. I should've added "Mxyzptlk" to the list of great episodes, because that's one of the few times we got to see a proactive Superman who readily outsmarted his opponent at every turn. The show is just not as interesting when things get so predictable that every moderately strong assault hits Superman squarely and hurts him, or every time he uses a cheesy looking suit to protect himself the suit invariably gets broken. The formula was overdone and got stale quickly, and really added no true depth to the show. And the show terribly hurt Superman's "cool" credibility when Bruce Wayne had arguably a more serious relationship with Lois than Superman or Clark Kent.
    I think it would be pretty difficult to make fifty-four twenty-two-minute episodes of a show where Superman is that powerful. Nigh-invincible Superman can work in the comics, but a TV episode needs to tell a longer story.

    They didn't really use the suits that often. And anyway, the suits looked cool. That's all that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Guy View Post
    The problem with STAS is that it was too much of an action show. BTAS was a drama with action. In STAS too much time and effort was put into having Superman fighting villains. And, as a result they ignored the heart of Superman, Clark Kent. In Batman, both Bruce Wayne and Batman are the same character. The "public" Bruce Wayne is the disguise. So, you can ignore that if you want. In Superman, there really isn't a disguise. Both Superman and Clark Kent are different aspects of his personality. But they treated Clark Kent like a disguise and pushed him to the side. That was their mistake. Clark Kent needed to be as big a part on the show as Superman.

    Another thing that hurt having STAS focus too much on action is that Superman doesn't have that many good villains. He has like 3 or 4. Around that time you also had the Spider-Man cartoon on FOX Kids which also focused more on the action than on Peter Parker's day to day life. But there they got away with it cause Spidey's villains are awesome.
    I think they did go into the Clark thing, just kind of subtly. Maybe that wasn't enough for some people, but I thought it was OK. And Clark Kent really is kind of the disguise, since Superman is very willing to put himself in harm's way to help people (that's another thing for the argument above - if Superman is less powerful, then his sacrifice is greater, because there's a greater chance that he could be killed). Meanwhile, Clark always has to be away from the action so Superman can arrive on the scene.

    You know, I've always wondered how Superman can have such a small rogues gallery if he's literally the oldest super hero. Seventy years of mythology and most people can count the Superman villains they know on one hand! Heck, before I saw the show I could think of Lex Luthor, Bizarro and maybe Brainiac, and that's it...
    "I've never met a man so tired of being alive."

  7. #27
    Old Guy is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,542
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkiman View Post
    Clark Kent really is kind of the disguise
    Both Superman and CK are disguises and different aspects of his personality. As Superman he is the hero and that's it. As Clark Kent he can be himself except for the hero thing. Although you can argue that CK is a hero in his own right since as a reporter he exposes the bad guys. Then again...the show didn't even explore the reporter side of CK except for The Late Mr. Kent episode. Another mistake the show made.

  8. #28
    BigFatHairyDeal's Avatar
    BigFatHairyDeal is offline Defender of the Universe
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,974
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkiman View Post
    I think it would be pretty difficult to make fifty-four twenty-two-minute episodes of a show where Superman is that powerful. Nigh-invincible Superman can work in the comics, but a TV episode needs to tell a longer story.

    They didn't really use the suits that often. And anyway, the suits looked cool. That's all that matters.
    about the suits. But the protective-suit-is-going-to-rip scenario is up there with Batman-is-going-to-crash-his-plane routine. Those are probably the two most predictable outcomes in the history of the DCAU. If you see Supes in a suit, you know it'll break and he'll be vulnerable. If you see Bats in the cockpit, you know he's going to eject and the aircraft is going to nosedive into the Earth.

    I don't know if twenty-two minute TV episodes are longer stories than comic books. I know the way WB/DC marketed the show, they demanded a higher proportion action sequences to dialogue and storytelling, so the writing staff probably felt compelled to come up with physical tension, contrived or not. But I'd point out that such serials as the somewhat disappointing Lois & Clark and even the cruddy Smallville rarely needed to tune down Superman's strength and their episodes were plentiful and longer, though that probably has a lot to do with the fact that they're more drama than action oriented shows.

  9. #29
    Munkiman's Avatar
    Munkiman is offline Hail Hydra.
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Colbert Nation
    Posts
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    I think once the suit didn't get ripped off, but it was his spacesuit. The anti-kryptonite suit always gets ripped off. I swear, sometimes it tore like tissue paper, despite the fact that it'sMADE OF LEAD.

    At least Batman can afford new planes. Poor Prof. Hamilton and all that wasted grant money... lol.

    I saw an episode of Smallville once. I'm not sure if this is the usual formula, but I believe Clark used his powers for all of twenty seconds to save some people in an elevator. It was so brief that somehow it seemed like a deus ex machina... even though it was Superman in a Superman show. I thought that was kinda weird.

    Anyway, getting back on track, S:TAS has more Superman than Clark Kent, mainly to keep young viewers interested, I suppose (hey, it worked for me when I was a kid). I don't know about Lois & Clark, but since you say it's more drama than action (and judging by the title), it sounds like there would be more Clark Kent and less Superman. For Superman to be fighting giant monsters, well, you need to make that last an entire episode, maybe throw in like 30 seconds of Clark before he goes into costume.

    Let's take the episode "The Prometheon," for example. It's a giant rock monster that wants to absorb all the heat on the planet to get stronger. Superman keeps on flying up into the air to fight it, but it's so tall that it sees him coming and swats him back down. Now, which would have been more interesting:

    A) Superman defeats the creature using strategy, asking Prof. Hamilton to cut off the power in the city, leaving the creature confused, then luring it to the reservoir by lighting up a steel girder with his heat vision as bait, then using chemicals that Prof. Hamilton adds to the reservoir to freeze the creature.

    B) Superman is so powerful that he punches the creature to Jupiter. The end.

    In case you were wondering, they used A.
    "I've never met a man so tired of being alive."

  10. #30
    BigFatHairyDeal's Avatar
    BigFatHairyDeal is offline Defender of the Universe
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,974
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkiman View Post
    Let's take the episode "The Prometheon," for example. It's a giant rock monster that wants to absorb all the heat on the planet to get stronger. Superman keeps on flying up into the air to fight it, but it's so tall that it sees him coming and swats him back down. Now, which would have been more interesting:

    A) Superman defeats the creature using strategy, asking Prof. Hamilton to cut off the power in the city, leaving the creature confused, then luring it to the reservoir by lighting up a steel girder with his heat vision as bait, then using chemicals that Prof. Hamilton adds to the reservoir to freeze the creature.

    B) Superman is so powerful that he punches the creature to Jupiter. The end.

    In case you were wondering, they used A.
    Agreed, it's usually better to have creative scenarios than rely on easy brute force. That's why I loved the end of "Legacy," because Superman met a guy who could physically dominate the guy, but he was able to predict the overconfident Darkseid's moves and pushed the Omega beams back into his eyes, causing his head to nearly explode. That's Guinness Draught-like "Brilliant!" And the follow up scene, with the Apokolips denizens tending to Darkseid's injuries after being liberated, was icing on the cake. There weren't many DCAU scenes that approached the climax of "Legacy."

    The problem with the show, though, was that these sort of struggles should be the exception to the rule, but in STAS kind of became the norm. The example you presented (which is kind of a strawman, btw, because I think most reasonable fans wouldn't laud scenario B) from "The Prometheon" is an example of unnecessary dumbing down effects because have you ever tried swatting away a fast flying object with an unpredictable flight path? It's never easy! Yes, the solution of finding a way to cut off the beast's power source was the right one to pick, but the show made the prospects of doing so needlessly difficult by having the thing repel Superman so easily. The same methods would've been conveyed just as adequately, and more true to common Superman portrayals, if he tried using brute force first but realized the thing was still getting stronger with no end in sight.

    Also, "The Prometheon" was a boring episode.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 
toonzone quick jump
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO