"Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

My Idea of the Ultimate ROTJoker DVD:

The Arkham scene w/ Bruce (old) and terry following him in, finished, and inserted into the movie.

The Pierce and Bruce sceen added into the movie.

4 episodes of Batman Beyond that tie up all loose ends.

A non-snap case (I HATE THOSE!), but in a case similiar to the X-Men one, or somthing of the sort.

Everything that was on the first DVD, but w/ the added above (and maybe some harder trivia)...and a new Commentary.

Both versions of the film (hmm..this sounds like it's turning out to be a double disc...has WB ever done a double disc??), edited, and un-edited.

WIDESCREEN version (Didn't Mr. Timm promise us one of those?)

That's all I can think of. What about you guys? How would you like it? Course, if I get it my way, then their will be 3 versions of the film (Edited, Un-Edited, and Un-edited w/ the 2 sceens added in). So ,to answer your question in short: Yes, I will buy ROTJ un-edited on DVD w/o question. the day it comes out, I will rush out to buy it (mainly cuz the quality of my current un-edited copy, and the japenese subtitles..course.I got it for free..and I'll still keep it after I get it un-edited.. thanks again JediKnight!)

-Bird_Boy

[Maxie Zeus]

With the movie versions in development, I do think there's a better than even chance of a relaunch of BTAS or BB, or both. WB is nothing if not adept at promotional exploitation, and I don't see them passing up the opportunity.

[redDragon]

Yeah I'd buy it....if I had the money kinda annoyed at the nice little print a the bottom telling ya not to reproduce it and sell it and to call a certian number if ya did ^^'

[James Harvey]

You can bet I'll get it. WB did a double disc set with JFK...and it was still a snapper case. The other disc was housed on the inside flap of the cardboard cover. I'd really love to see WB do the 'keep case' format, and not the friggin 'snapper case' format, which just really bugs me. I'd love to see a supped up DVD disc.

Now, let's get back and focus on Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker!

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by nightwing_38116
Will we ever see a Batman animated series again in production? In your opinion of course.

Batman Beyond had it's harsh enemies, and it's slight problems, so it won't live as strongly as Batman did, but there's one thing I DO know, and that's that Batman never stops. it's the best story ever told, so I know years from now we'll still see more. It's just that I'm slightly worried about that with the scuffle still going on between Timm and Dini. We gotta help those guys get it in gear and back together. Bruce and Terry NEED them!

And because of that, should a nice full special edition UNEDITED ROTJ DVD come out, I deman the profits go to who they should, not the WB jerks that put us through all the ROTJ mess.

[Man of Steel]

Hey:

I think that we will see another Batman series in the future but of course I hope it's not on the WB, cause I don't won't the show to be cut down on the volience and I don't want the color to be really bright, so if we get another show I hope that it will premier on the Cartoon Network. And about Return of the Joker, I hope that Cartoon Network will show Return of the Joker Uncut even though I have seen the uncut version of the movie, and I hope that WB will release it on video cause the true Batman fans deserve it cause we all waited a long time for this movie.

[Knight]

I'd love to see BB:ROTJ uncut officially released. I never liked the fact that they changed the movie and refused to buy the cut version. So If they ever come out with it I'm definitely getting it.

[James Harvey]

The new head of WBA actually likes animation, so maybe we will get it soon...

[Calhoun07]

After recent discussions on this movie on this board, I felt it was best to sit down and just watch it again. Rather than posting replies on the threads already in progress, I figured I'd just make my couple comments on this thread. This is in response mainly to the rant thread about Batman Beyond and about did Batman kill the Joker.

First, a thought about the rant: Bruce Wayne doesn't even think of Terry as BATMAN! He calls him a dumb kid, no different than the rest. In that one statement, he clearly placed Terry on the same plane as Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl. Clearly, Batman Beyond could have just as easilly been Nightwing Beyond, thus enforcing the validity of the rant previously posted on this board.

In regards to did Batman kill the Joker. I paid real close attention to the parts about that chip in Tim's neck. The old Joker encoded that chip with his own DNA and implanted it into Tim's neck. It sounds very technical and complicated, and I doubt I could really get into all the ins and outs of this technology introduced in this story, but if the original Joker transferred his DNA to Tim and programmed the chip to allow that DNA to take over Tim's body and to transform him into a modern day Joker, that modern day Joker may be a clone of the orginal Joker, but it is not the original Joker. No more than a clone of myself would be the original me. A clone is quite similar to a twin of the person cloned.

Given that, I would have to say that the modern day Joker was every bit sentient in every possible facet previously discussed in the "Did Batman Kill" thread. A clone is not a souless being, that is for sure. A clone is not a work of man, just genetic manipulation of the DNA God put in us which is the blue print for life. I don't want to get too deep in it right now, but suffice to say, by all appearances, it wasn't a computer chip Batman destroyed, it was the very DNA of Joker's clone. He did kill the Joker. The computer chip just allowed the DNA to grow and take over Tim's body, and while the computer chip wasn't the Joker itself, when Batman destroyed it, he destroyed the DNA. Or could he have? Perhaps Tim still has Joker's DNA in his body? Who knows? If it grew that much, who is to say that simply destroying the computer chip was adequate enough to eradicate the Joker's DNA from Tim's system.

Now, that's getting into genitics and the medical field, and I am afraid I am not too knowlegeable in that area. But watching the movie again certainly made it clear that it wasn't the equivialent of an android Batman killed, that's for sure.

[Huntress]

But .....

if the joker only implanted his DNA into Tim then he hasn't implanted himself, just a copy of himself ... let's say the real Joker was still about and hadn't been killed already by Tim, then the DNA Terry destroyed would simply be a copy of the one that existed - Joker would still be alive.

Tim killed the original Joker. Terry destroyed a copy of the Joker but not the real thing.

And, I agree with your observation that Bruce doesn't consider Terry to be Batman. He compliments him on a few occassions and tells him he's doing a good job and is a fair comparison. You're right that this shouldn't be Batman Beyond per se but NO WAY should it be Nightwing!! Dude, don't use that name in vain!! There can be only one DG (sorry! - big Nightwing fan ... case you hadn't guessed ...)

[Calhoun07]

You can't just brush off the life Batman took at the end of ROTJ because it is a "copy." By all rights, a clone is the genetic equivalent to a twin. So, if you see identical twins walking down the street, it's ok to kill one of them because one of them is just a copy of the other??? Cloning may be debateable on ethical grounds, but a cloned life is still a life. It's just genetic manipulation, creating an identical twin when one wasn't made in the womb itself.

And I didn't mean to imply Batman Beyond should be called Nightwing Beyond. That was mentioned in the rant posted previously that the show MIGHT AS WELL be called that, because Terry is NOT Batman. But Batman is a more marketable name, clearly.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by calhoun07

First, a thought about the rant: Bruce Wayne doesn't even think of Terry as BATMAN! He calls him a dumb kid, no different than the rest. In that one statement, he clearly placed Terry on the same plane as Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl.

You're wrong. I replied to this idea in another thread, but I'll do it again here. Previously, I said Bruce admitted he was wrong. Not entirely accurate. He never literally said "you're not actually a stupid kid." However, it was clear from his words to Terry at the end that he regarded him very highly for what he brought to Batman. The fact is, earlier in the film, Bruce was afraid for Terry's life. Hence his anger and usage of the words "stupid kid." He didn't want another tragedy like Tim Drake. He was wrong to believe Terry couldn't handle himself and the proof of this is in the very fact he ignored their previous argument. He never gave the suit back to Terry or asked him back. He ignored the fact the words had ever been spoken by him. Terry tells Bruce later that he was never a like Bruce's old partners, never a Robin. Bruce doesn't disagree with any of that. And admits at that point that he didn't want what happened to Tim Drake to happen to Terry. At the end, Bruce acknowledged everything Terry had said before when he said that Terry makes Batman worthwhile. Bruce does see Terry as Batman.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by DarkAngel
You're wrong. (...) Bruce does see Terry as Batman.

I just agree with you. Nothing to add. When Bruce calls Terry a stupid kid, he's just peeved and distressed, and Bruce Wayne is well known for the lack of tact he displays in such situations. By the way, to my mind, and though he'll never admit it, he considers Nightwing an equal. In the mainstream comics it's pretty obvious. And *to me* it's a fact in the animated series as well.

[Calhoun07]

Sorry you all, I fell asleep during the last ten minutes or so of that movie last night (I watched it really late) and back tracked only enough to find the part where Joker explained how he was able to transform Tim in to the Joker. I forgot and missed the part where Bruce conceded his earlier statement!

With that cleared up, what about Batman killing the Joker at the end of the movie?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
You can't just brush off the life Batman took at the end of ROTJ because it is a "copy." By all rights, a clone is the genetic equivalent to a twin.

Well, yes and no. He didn't really kill a clone though - the body still lived, just the genetics changed. He destroyed a bit of genetic information - that's not necessarily killing. I can take a blood sample from you, which has you're DNA, and destroy it. Does that mean I'm a killer? I don't think so. I can take a computer file with your personal info on it, and destroy it. Again, it doesn't make me a killer. And that's what Terry destroyed - he destroyed a combo of genetic material and electronic gadgetry - a DNA "file", but he left the body (Tim's) alive. So its still a pretty vague question about whether or not Terry "killed".

[Calhoun07]

But the new Joker was more than just a blood sample, wasn't he? Perhaps the DNA he used to implant into that chip was a blood sample, but the DNA grew into a living being, capable of taking over Tim's body and making his own choices and developing his own agenda. That makes him MUCH more than just a blood sample. Given time, that blood sample that became a fully grown cloned version of Joker would have taken over Tim's body all together. Would it have been murder then?

You know, this whole plot in Batman ROTJ sounds like a plot for a bad B Movie, doesn't it? THE CLONE THAT TOOK OVER MY BODY!

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
But the new Joker was more than just a blood sample, wasn't he? Perhaps the DNA he used to implant into that chip was a blood sample, but the DNA grew into a living being, capable of taking over Tim's body and making his own choices and developing his own agenda.

Well, now that's debatable. I don't see it as a "separate" being. I always though of it in this way: there were two aspects of the gadget. One was bioligical "splicer" if you will - it spliced in Joker's DNA, making Tim physically look like the Joker. But just giving Tim the DNA wouldn't have made him think and act like the Joker, necessarily. So, I always assumed the "personality" was another aspect of the gadget (I don't remember how much of this was specifically said in the movie, and how much of it was my own imagination). The gadget implanted the DNA for the physical characteristics, but it also "reprogrammed" Tim - sort of overlaying the Joker's thought patterns on Tim's brain. And, as we know, to create new memories and ideas in the human brain, we need to have repetition, so that new neural pathways are laid down. So I always thought of it like this - every time the "joker" came out, it was the device laying down/overlaying these pathways. Each time it happened, the pathways got closer and closer to becoming permanent, and thus it was a gradual "taking over" of Tim's mind. So, in this way, its not really a separate being taking over Tim, but just the gadget gradually converting him into a clone or copy. Since the process was never completed, and Tim remained alive, I don't see it as killing.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Clayface
But just giving Tim the DNA wouldn't have made him think and act like the Joker, necessarily. So, I always assumed the "personality" was another aspect of the gadget. The gadget implanted the DNA for the physical characteristics, but it also "reprogrammed" Tim - sort of overlaying the Joker's thought patterns on Tim's brain.

This is marvelously put. DNA all by itself wouldn't do anything except change Tim's physical appearance, the way "mutagens" in BB are always wreaking havoc (Blight, Earth Mover, Big Time, etc.). On the other hand, the neural-personality changes all by themselves were enough to make things bad. I mean, suppose Tim-as-the-Joker didn't change physically, but still thought and acted like the Joker; much of the same evil would have followed.

This means that the DNA is probably irrelevant to questions about "killing." So suppose the Joker hadn't planted DNA in that chip, and only planted the neural thing-a-ma-bobby. Would Terry have been "killing" something simply by shorting out the chip?

[Calhoun07]

If the transformation of Tim took place the way Clayface postulated, I am inclined to agree with him. Thus Batman deactivating the chip and stopping the manipulation of Tim's brain would no more be murder than a psychiatrist "killing" an alternate personality in a schitzophrenic personality.

You know, do you think Paul Dini would have imagined this kind of debate would go on about the ending of his movie when he wrote it?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
You know, do you think Paul Dini would have imagined this kind of debate would go on about the ending of his movie when he wrote it?

Naw, he was laying awake nights feeling horrible about pushing Harley over a cliff.