Batman Beyond Rant (It's long. Sorry)

[Periphery]

Firstthingfirst, I KNOW this is only a cartoon (for those people who reply "It's only a cartoon." Gr those people!) but I am really into Batman, and everything I write here is MY opinion.


For years, ever since 1991, Paul Dini, Bruce Timm and company has been bringing the Batman to contempary animation with much success, exploring the myriad of aspects associated with the enduring character by creating three series: Batman, Batman and Robin and the New Superman Batman Adventures

With the first Batman, the character was the loner, working mostly without the overall support of the police department, if not the shaky aid of Commissioner Gordan. The overall feel of the show was special and unique. Gotham City itself was as much a character as the Dark Night was with it’s highly visual look of the Dark Deco design and the anachronistic mixtures of eras, with its VCRs played on Black and White TVs, and fashion and vehicles that found home in the Forties and Fifties. Another aspect that made Batman special was that lacked a famous Villain of the Episode that could have so easily made it a cliché “superhero” cartoon. Instead of fighting Joker and Two-Face episode after episode, Batman fought gangsters and mob bosses, and in some episodes just tackled simple crimes and in my eyes, that made Batman more than a superhero but a true crime fighter.

The first Batman balanced drama and action most times with perfect execution (did I tell you that everything I present to you is MY opinion??). Sure there were some crappy episodes, where both story and animation just couldn’t save it, but there were those episodes that just seemed great, where everything formed perfectly.

Fox made it quite clear that after the first season, Robin was to be put into every and all episodes. This did not diminish the character of the Batman, just showed yet another aspect of the character, one beyond the loner. One that didn’t have to face the night alone. The interaction between Robin and Batman were at most times great, both were fleshed out and complemented each other perfectly: the Dark Night, always keeping in the shadows, saying as little as possible to the criminals he fought, and Robin, who wise-cracked with a colorful costume, and had a functional life outside his Robin persona.

By the Batman/Superman Adventures, Batman was established. He was older and wiser, having been doing this for years. His reputation preceded him in the public eye. He had his crew of satellite crime fighters, but Batman truly didn’t need any of them. Though there was a very evident shift between the tones of the first two and third series, the Batman Mythos of the cartoon and overall, the basics of Batman stayed the same.

Batman is a crime fighter and a detective.
Batman is human and could tackle the Joker one night without getting scathed then gets bashed by an every night crook the next.
Batman consults/aids the police, strengthening the urban crime nature of the character.
Batman is FEARED and held in awe by both criminals and populous alike.
Batman is psychological (which persona was the mask anyhow? Bruce or Batman?)
Gotham City itself is a character!

This is Batman.

Then there is Batman Beyond.

I have a love/hate relationship with Batman Beyond. On one hand, it is Batman in animated form, and since the closing of the door to the Batman/Superman Adventures, it is the only new adventures of Batman us fans were to get for some time. On the other hand, at least it said it was Batman in the opening credits. But after watching the cartoon for these past years (!), who could really tell? In all reality, it should be called Robin Beyond, but then, in the Real Life Marketing World it wouldn’t have such a well known name attached to it to draw kids (both youngsters and those over twenty ((like me)) in, and in the Cartoon World, Batman was the force beyond his satellite crew. Logic would dictate that the Legacy had to continue with Batman.

In all respects, Terry is no Batman, but a Robin pure and true. He wisecracks. He gets his butt handed to him. He is not as psychological as Bruce. Sure he has had a family tragedy, but like Dick and Tim, it was not something that left him hollow like Bruce. Like Dick, Tim, and Barbara, Terry has a life beyond Batman. He has a mother and brother and a girlfriend and friends. Terry has a life, and his secret identity is Batman; it is a mask that he wears. For Bruce, there was nothing else but Batman. Bruce was the mask.

In the first season (the best in my eyes), it seemed that together both were Batman. Bruce was the detective and the strategist, while Terry was the field agent, the muscle. It would have been cool if the series played out with this format. But by the second season (the worst in my eyes) they focused on Terry and his adventures in school. Bruce wasn’t needed much when it seem Terry only fought with teenagers suffering from angst, school, social and family related problems. Seem criminals and crime took a backseat (not that is seem there were much of the stuff anyhow.)

So in this new incarnation of the Batman Mythos, the basics of what Batman was either disregarded or flat out lost.

Terry takes orders and fights the villain of the episode (poorly at that, with poor villians to top it.)
Terry relies on a techno-powered suit for his feets, and still gets his butt handed to him on a strictly regular basis.
Beyond Commissioner Gordan, Terry has nothing to do with cops.
Nobody fears Terry. Foes will openly confront him when he appears and usually knock him down a number of times at that.
Terry is not psychological in the least. In fact, he is a downright boring character. He has no quarks or pet peeves, nothing that defines him. Even his reason for staying the Batman is flat (to help people. That’s it. Nice. It has been hinted in the comics that Bruce does it, not overall for other people, but for himself). Who is Terry outside the suit? Terry. Who is Terry inside the suit? Terry. Flat, boring Terry who goes home to a mother and brother and hangs with a girlfriend at times. Yeah, that is Batman!
Gotham City is just as flat as Terry. There is nothing unique about it. It has no character. It is simply a techno city. Clean at that! People say that Batman Beyond owes a lot to Blade Runner. Granted that. But at least the city in Blade Runner was dirty and dark, a techno noir place with fog and ugly factories blocking out the sky. In Speak No Evil (*groan*), Dana says off hand that Gotham is a dangerous place. Well Batman is supposed to in the thick of the danger and criminal element of Gotham City. Based on that Dana, you could have fooled me.

Okay. As I said before, I have a love/hate relationship with Batman Beyond. I know so far, I have said nothing that points even remotely to love for the show, but here it is: Batman Beyond is (as stupid as this sounds) overall realistic. This is a Batman one could get without any plans from Bruce of making a legacy. Terry was not hand picked by Bruce. Terry was not molded by Bruce. It all just fell into both of their laps. They are both making the best of what they got. In that, Batman Beyond is cool. Though now, putting this down on keyboard and screen, I think I am making the best of what I have got as well.
So why did the producers make such drastic changes to the Mythos? Of course I cannot say for sure, but I have ideas (big shock to that).

Maybe they wanted to make it this way.
Maybe they were simply burnt out.
Maybe they were strangled by the WB execs to create a flat superhero with a known name any (!!KID!!) body can catch hold on to without any of the Mythos baggage.
Maybe they didn’t want to overshadow the true Batman, and made this knowing it will have no lasting effect on the Mythos, and after the money was made, it will just fade.
Maybe being a completely independent creation with no comic baseboard to fallback on, this was the best the producers to come up with (Alan Burnett does have a major hand in the Zeta Project. Need I touch upon this anymore??)
Maybe they were trying to explore another angle to the Mythos.
Maybe they think that nothing is wrong, and this is a natural progression of the established Mythos.
Maybe they wanted a Batman as Marvel Comics would do him (see comment below)
Maybe this is all a setup and something will happen that will give Terry depth, or that through the training and the experience (as light as it seems) Terry will come into his own.
Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about.

As for my Marvel Comics remark, I have a little theory about this aspect of Batman in Beyond. Here me out and I do have things to back it up.

Beyond is Batman as Marvel Comics would make it. I always through of DC as more drama-ish, with their characters being more cerebral and traditional a hero as opposed to Marvel’s bash and rumble vigilantes who got trashed just as much as they trashed. The first season of Batman shows DC, drama and character depth. Batman Beyond has a character with an origin (and even powers) similar to Spider-man who cracks jokes and remarks as he rumbles first and gets bashed way before he starts bashing (if he does). They even have a character named Flash Tompso-um I mean Nelson Nash. Um. They whole feel of Batman Beyond is action first with flashy drawn out battles and lots of explosions. It is all so Marvel. (NOT that that is bad. Just different.) Not to mention the introduction of the Terrific Trio (how FF can one get!)

Anyway, here are my lists of “I Wish They Did It Like Thises” in keeping with the overall origin and history of the show; I think it would have been cool:

. . . since it seems that Gotham City overall is a very techno-advanced place with no soul and little crime, have a section of Gotham that is old and poor and gritty, untouched by the new. A section where the art deco buildings of old Gotham still stands. It would be gothic and have soul and be unique stomping grounds for the Bat. Gangsters and more psychological bad guys would have fit perfectly in this setting. Misfits of society and all that. (Art deco buildings back dropped by Techno towers of outer Gotham. Ahhhhhh, the imagery!) A section like this will be crime infested and it would make sense that Bruce would have Terry safeguard this area. It would be Bruce’s Gotham.

. . . since Terry is so flat and have zero fear affect, Bruce could have made Terry take acting and drama lessons so he could be more fearful and more of a presence to criminals since the producers had it in their heads to have school such a dominate feature (the second season anyone), this would have been cool for character development and linked Terry to the school more. It might even be cool contrast that when Terry is in Old Gotham, he is feared. But those times he must go to New Gotham, he gets the same amount of respect as in the current series. (IE: none)

. . . since Terry is nowhere near the fighting level of Bruce, instead of relying of his techno-strength, have Terry use weapons more. Anybody who have seen the Batman Beyond Files or the Return of the Joker video game, knows that Terry has bolas and shields, staffs and magnetic nuchucu (how cool is that!) Yet in the show, you never see any of these! It is always his techno strength. Since Terry is not good in close quarter fights, weapons would be a perfect solution. (And look cool as well.)

. . . since in many people’s mind, the sanity of the original’s Batman was always in question, that gave him a cool psychological census. Doubtless more than some of the criminals and the populace feared him more for what was going down behind his head than the fact that he wore a frightening costume. It doesn’t seem to be any of that with Terry. People just accept him. He is just there, despite the fact that he is always talking to Bruce in front of both people and criminals through his head cowl and people RARLEY comment on it. (I think it was brought up once. Once!) It would be cool if people thought he was wacko because of it, and question why he is doing all this and fear him like the original.

. . . since it seemed to me they hit the right track by keeping Bruce and Terry together to complement each other. Both together made Batman, it would have been cool if they kept it like this. Terry is hollow. Why focus on him and leave Bruce behind?

Well this is the end my rant. I am a dedicated Batman fan, and allinall I would have no Batman beyond, even though as a writer, if did propell me in created some good Batman Legacy stories setting and characters. But chances are I would have come up with these stories without having a cartoon that disregarded everything I loved about the character to push me to make better.

Rant’s end

Alon

[Maxie Zeus]

Very nicely put.

And there are a number of people here who will NOT argue with you.

[DerekPowers]

your not kidding, that was long. i think that has to be the longest post i've seen since i've been here.

anyway, i agree w/ some points, but i love bb so i'm biast. The point about the first season being the best and the second the worst, i think goes without saying. Had they kept going with the same kind of enthusism as the first season, like developing unique and driven villians, stuff like that, the show wouldhave been much better overall.

but, terry was a pretty good bat in return of the joker. and he's still young, so ofcourse he's not as dark and brooding as bruce. and the hs eps of the second season, imo, werent bad because they were teen eps, but because they were poorly written. look at dead man's hand and spellbound. high school/teen eps, but excellent. (as i stated in a recent post). but well thats my opinion. peace.

[Calhoun07]

This "rant" makes alot of stong points and really nailed it right on the head. But my only question is, what does it matter now? It seems like Batman Beyond is over. From my understanding, they aren't going back to the character. So while I agree with all the rants about the series, comments on how to improve upon it strike me as null and void, however much I liked the comments!

[Calhoun07]

Welcome to the boards, Periphery. Great to see you here, and I mean that! I see that was your first post, and I am looking forward to seeing more from you!

[Huntress]

Wow! I'd hate to come up against you in a debate, Periphery! But thankfully on this occassion I totally agree with everything that you said.

Okay, this is bound to go off-target 'cos of the subject matter ... I know this is the BB board.

The 'lightening up' of Batman to focus more on a kiddie audience is something that's been happening for a while and seems to be unfortunately inevitable. The darker Batman that you spoke of (of which I, too, am a very big fan) presumably doesn't sell anymore. It was somewhere after Batman Returns that it all went silly ... there was some of the 'old' stuff in Batman Forever but why DC allowed Schumacher to make the brightly sparkling camp affair that was Batman & Robin I'll never know!! The same thing happened to the animated series with TNBA being much more bright and happy. This just isn't Batman! Batman, as you said, is the dark, scary character who haunts the nightmares of his enemies (and even most of the good guys).

The trouble is that with the completion of TAS and TNBA where could the series go? Can you imagine what sort of a mess they would make if it was 'the Nightwing Adventures' or something .... as much as I'd love to see a brief hint as to what happened to DG in this timeline, I'm hoping it's not too much info ... it has the potential to get corny!

A futuristic Batman was inevitable - and a really good concept. But it's just not quite right.

The main gleaming aspect of BB for me is Bruce. He hasn't succumbed to the brightness; he's as dark and brooding as he ever was. He is just as mysterious and baffling and it's wonderful. To see Terry get infuriated because he doesn't understand him or Bruce won't answer his questions is excellent. It is a brilliant development of his character; to make him even crankier than when DG got annoyed with him and even more brilliant a detective. He has some great lines in BB and they are often subtle - almost as though the writers themselves snuck them in, trying to say 'yeah, we had to do it this way, but there are some Batman veterans still here'. Like in Shriek when he tells Terry he's not 'Bruce' in his subconscious - fantastic!
That's because Bruce IS Batman. It's hard to watch him in the background while Terry tries and fails to fill his shoes. But then, as you pointed out, he was always one to lurk in the shadows. (Totally off-topic here but fun nonetheless is the notion that Batman is in fact so twisted and psychologically unstable that this is why he has a Robin .... who in their right mind would have a kid in such a dark, shadowy place dressed up in stunningly bright colours. I know it's a metaphor more than anything but please!! Target practice or what?!!)

Maybe if Terry had a different name and wasn't trying to be Batman it would work better. Or, as you say, if Bruce had trained him more.

Still, as someone said, there's no point in moaning about it - it's over now. Done.

Here's hoping Aronofsky and Miller can turn it all back round and give us back the dark, ominous man we knew and loved.

Nice to have you on the boards.

[oranthal]

i would reply but pretty much what i would have said has already been said others. one question though: who is that you use as your avatar? she looks fine.

[Inque]

Originally posted by Periphery
..fights the villain of the episode (poorly at that, with poor villians to top it.)

I disagree with that. Batman Beyond has at least one good villian, Inque!

[Nightwing]

Ah, from the start I suspected that of a post-teenaged Bat-fan. I'm one myself more or less. Anyway, welcome to the boards Periphery! And that's right, I said boardS, with an S at the end! If you love the amazing stories and characters of Batman, odds are you like at leas SOME other stuff in this world of entertainment, so don't forget to check out The World's Finest's other boards. Don't be a stranger!

And first off let me say, being a hard core Dick Grayson fan, I absolutely love your summary of Dick in Bruce's life. Extremely well put.

Originally posted by Periphery

Terry is not psychological in the least. In fact, he is a downright boring character. He has no quarks or pet peeves, nothing that defines him. Even his reason for staying the Batman is flat (to help people. That’s it. Nice. It has been hinted in the comics that Bruce does it, not overall for other people, but for himself). Who is Terry outside the suit? Terry. Who is Terry inside the suit? Terry. Flat, boring Terry who goes home to a mother and brother and hangs with a girlfriend at times. Yeah, that is Batman!

But here I very slightly disagree. First off, from the episodes Babel, Sneak Peak, Eye Witness, and above all the movie Return Of The Joker, I have soften up to Terry's Batman. But what I'm slightly disagreeing with is Bruce staying Batman for himself. I don't think that's entirely true. I feel that ever since his parents were killed, Bruce became Batman, and his obsession to (1)avenge his parents, and (2)make sure that this would never happen to anyone else (hence his manipulative personality) took over.

But all of the stated reasons for disliking Batman Beyond (a large number of which I share) all seem point to the sadness over the loss of Bruce under the mask. If one tries not to compare Terry's world to Bruce's, it makes viewing Terry's world much easier to do. It's a hard order, seeing as how Bruce is not only the best crimefighter and superhero in the world, but the best fictional character as well (IMHO). Still, it eases the pain of the few pitfalls Batman Beyond fell victim to in it's short time.

[Maxie Zeus]

Only a few months ago, on the old boards, I and Gpoliceman and Clayface and a few others were emeshed in long series of threads about why we were dissatisfied with BB. We got a lot of good argument back, and a few posts that politely but pointedly asked "If you don't like it why do you watch it?"

Well, there's been a similar outbreak of criticism now, in this thread and in the thread about the secondary characters, but nary a breath of disagreement -- mostly just people popping in to say that they largely agree. I'm startled: Do those who strongly defended BB last time around think the critics are incorrigible, and that there's no point in arguing back with them? Or have criticisms that were controversial only a short time ago become conventional wisdom now?

I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's here. I'm just puzzled by the lack of response to Periphery's challenge.

[Periphery]

Originally posted by calhoun07
This "rant" makes alot of stong points and really nailed it right on the head. But my only question is, what does it matter now? It seems like Batman Beyond is over. From my understanding, they aren't going back to the character. So while I agree with all the rants about the series, comments on how to improve upon it strike me as null and void, however much I liked the comments!

But it is not really over over. It will be aired on CN, with a chance of getting new eps (however minute it may be), and a live action movie (however minute it may be), and then there are the fans who will write the show as fanfiction and keep it alive in these boards.

Even beyond that, the image of BB will be with us Batfans for a long time to come.

Bliss

Alon

[Periphery]

Originally posted by Inque


I disagree with that. Batman Beyond has at least one good villian, Inque!

Sorry, sorry. Skimming around these boards, I have seen you have more than passing passion for Inque. Low is me to try to counter that.

Forgive, forgive!

Bliss

Alon

[Periphery]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Welcome to the boards, Periphery. Great to see you here, and I mean that! I see that was your first post, and I am looking forward to seeing more from you!

Thanks for making me feel welcomed Calhoun07!

And I can type a lot, so I guess there is really no fear of me hanging in the shadows.

Bliss

Alon

[Periphery]

Originally posted by oranthal
i would reply but pretty much what i would have said has already been said others. one question though: who is that you use as your avatar? she looks fine.

Would you believe a Spice Girl??? Ha!

I just got Paintshop Pro 5 and was doing some alts, this is the first pic I did.

Bliss

Alon

[HellCat]

Originally posted by Periphery
. . . since it seems that Gotham City overall is a very techno-advanced place with no soul and little crime, have a section of Gotham that is old and poor and gritty, untouched by the new. A section where the art deco buildings of old Gotham still stands. It would be gothic and have soul and be unique stomping grounds for the Bat. Gangsters and more psychological bad guys would have fit perfectly in this setting. Misfits of society and all that. (Art deco buildings back dropped by Techno towers of outer Gotham. Ahhhhhh, the imagery!) A section like this will be crime infested and it would make sense that Bruce would have Terry safeguard this area. It would be Bruce’s Gotham.

There is a section like this,it was part of the plot in 'Shriek'