X-Men shunned, Avengers and Fantastic Four cherished. My thought on that.

[Antiyonder]

Note: This is my way of trying to understand about mutants and non mutants in Marvel, so no political comments

As anyone who's read X-Men will know, the X-Title would largely cover the theme of racism. Yet in that same universe, most heroes who have gain their powers through other means (as opposed to being born with them). That's probably the one of the biggest confusions in the Marvel Universe.

My guess on why (Bear with me, I don't fully comprehend the racist minds), is say a famous white celebrity were to publically announce that he/she was going to get a change in skin pigmentation, to physically resemble black/African American. Would he/she be victim to those against African Americans or would they be given exceptional treatment?

That's why I'm thinking non mutant heroes such as She-Hulk and The Thing have more fans than say the more human looking mutants (Jean Grey, Bobby Drake, Banshee, etc)

Anyway, does this make sense to anyone?

[ManicWebb]

My guess on why (Bear with me, I don't fully comprehend the racist minds), is say a famous white celebrity were to publically announce that he/she was going to get a change in skin pigmentation, to physically resemble black/African American. Would he/she be victim to those against African Americans or would they be given exceptional treatment?

I'm not so sure about that analogy. I'd say it's more along the lines of a white person getting a tan vs. someone with naturally brown skin. Plenty of people want to be like the golden-brown, tanned celebrities, but there's not a white person in the US who would ever want to switch places with a black person.

"There's not a single white man in this audience who'd switch places me with. And I'm rich!" --Chris Rock

[Sharklady]

> That's why I'm thinking non mutant heroes such as She-Hulk and The Thing... <

The Thing *is* a mutant. Ben Grimm was a normal-looking human before radiation exposure gave him a drastic make-over.

http://www.comicsvf.com/scans/volimi...andlogan/1.jpg

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

As anyone who's read X-Men will know, the X-Title would largely cover the theme of racism.

I'd extend that to the theme of irrational hatred towards a group of other human beings, and not just racism. Nowadays, the plot element of "curing" a mutant has an analogy to homosexual persecution and the idea that gay people can be "cured."

That's why I'm thinking non mutant heroes such as She-Hulk and The Thing have more fans than say the more human looking mutants (Jean Grey, Bobby Drake, Banshee, etc)

I'm not so sure that the Thing is more popular than an average mutant. He does have fans, but the majority of the population treats him as a monster.

In any event, the one and only reason why mutants are persecuted is because they are mutants. It has nothing to do with external appearance, and that's deliberate. Someone like Captain America or Reed Richards is functionally equivalent to a mutant, but isn't subject to the same hatred as someone who could "pass" for a normal human like Jean Grey or Iceman. It doesn't make sense, but that's kind of the point. Anti-mutant hatred is supposed to be totally arbitrary and usually based in ignorance and fear. It doesn't make any sense to hate someone simply because they're a mutant, any more than it makes sense to hate someone simply on the basis of skin color, nationality, ethnic background, religion, or sexual preference.

-- Ed

[Jack Frenzy]

The Thing *is* a mutant. Ben Grimm was a normal-looking human before radiation exposure gave him a drastic make-over.

No, he's not. In the Marvel Universe, the term "mutant" specifically refers to those who powers were inherent from birth. Some scholars of the MU use the term "mutate" for those who obtained powers through some accident or effect. So, the Thing (cosmic ray exposure) is a mutate, not a mutant. The difference may seem negligible, but there have been many stories suggesting that "mutants" have some special characteristics (such as altered brainwave patterns) that distinguish them from non-mutant supers; this is the idea behind the mutant-locating machine, Cerebro.

Anyway, back to the original question, the use of anti-mutant racism was very inconsistent in the comics until the 90's. It was first introduced in the original X-Men comics, but to the best of my recollection, never really seemed to have much of point other than to add a little angst to the stories and was basically written out after the first Sentinels arc. Aside from the the brief Claremont-era "Project Armageddon" arc, it really wasn't a theme in the books again until "Days of Future Past." Even then, it became mostly a simmering conflict in the background, occassionally bubbling up but mostly ignored in favor of other storylines. I think it was only late in Claremont's first run that it became a major plot-point ("Lifedeath" and the first Genosha arc).

As a result, it's kind of hard to define why the humans of the Marvel Universe have trouble with mutants. Based on what I've read, I'd say the following:

The FF is popular because they've always been quite forthright with their identities and activities. They mix well with the public, and generally come-off as down-to-earth folks. Even the Thing, who terrified many at first, is so well-known around New York that most people treat him as a celebrity.

The Avengers are popular, though they've had their controversial moments (such as inducting former criminals such as Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye). Though they don't always mix well with the public, they have some members who are extremely popular (Captain America), some with good media relations savvy (Iron Man), and a few celebrities (Wasp). Of the various popular teams, they're the ones most likely to be read about for inside gossip.

As for the X-Men. they don't mix well with the public, for two reasons: Magneto and Xavier.

Magneto, with his "I will kill all humans to save mutants," rhetoric makes everyone scared of mutants. There was actually a "What If?" story in which Magneto dies in the fifties and as a result, mutants in the nineties are just as accepted as everyone else.

As for Xavier, he's drilled it into his students heads that they can't lead normal lives. They're mutants, so they have to live apart, learning to fight other teams of mutants in what must appear to the public as some sort of militant mutant gang war. Xavier makes his students wear masks and use codenames to hide their identities, rather than let them publicly show their faces and stand up for their rights. He's basically encouraged an "us vs. them" attitude between mutants and humans that's solving nothing.

As to the greater question of why non-mutants are more popular than mutants, I think it's because these three groups may be what people think about when they need examples of such individuals.

[Anwar]

What I'd like to see is a What If? where both Magneto AND Xavier were killed off either back in the 50s or very early on into the X-Men's careers (lik the first few issues) and the mutants were free of the damage Magneto did and the X-Men are now free of Xavier's influence to make their own choices.

[Sharklady]

> No, he's not. In the Marvel Universe, the term "mutant" specifically refers to those who powers were inherent from birth. Some scholars of the MU use the term "mutate" for those who obtained powers through some accident or effect. So, the Thing (cosmic ray exposure) is a mutate, not a mutant. <

Here's how the American Heritage Dictionary defines those two words:

Mutant (noun): an individual or organism differing from the parental strain as a result of chromosomal alteration.

Mutate (verb): to cause to undergo change by mutation.

So by the dictionary definition, The Thing, and all the FF, are mutants.

[Doop]

Magneto may not help, but humans would hate mutants even if he didn't exist.

And sharklady; in the Marvel Universe, anyone who gained their powers through an external source, ala radiation or cosmic waves, is not a mutant.

[Chad Bonin]

Reed Richards calls Dr. Strange "Post-Human" in Civil War...

The Avengers no longer exist. The New Avengers haven't recieved a warm welcome, and Captain America is currently Public Enemy #1...

[randomguy]

Reed Richards calls Dr. Strange "Post-Human" in Civil War...

This is a Mark Millar term first introduced in Ultimates. It refers to the collective group of people-that-are-more-than-just-people, and includes mutants, humans who have been enhanced cybernetically or genetically, heroes and villains whose abillities are magical or mystical in origin, and the results of freak accidents, like the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. Though not Millar's invention, he was the first to bring it into comic books and apply it to the group of people including superheroes and supervillains. Interestingly, and appropriately for Marvel characters, posthuman fiction also sometimes refers to them as homo excelsior.

Dr. Strange, at least to me, seemingly wouldn't qualify, as he's just an ordinary guy with specialized knowledge and ability that anyone could learn, but I guess that's enough.

Anyhow, I think the public's basic fondness for the Fantastic Four and the Avengers (Civil War and New Avengers aside) can be generally atributed to the fact that they were born humans and underwent transformations that could have happened to anyone. They're just like any other "regular" joe in humanity's view, whereas mutants are something else entirely, another class of person.

You can argue over whether or not this rationalization actually makes sense, but it's the standard take. You can chalk its unreasonableness up to either the negative consequences of having the X-Men in the rest of Marvel's shared universe, or a commentary on the nature of prejudice itself. Or both, I suppose.

[Chad Bonin]

This is a Mark Millar term first introduced in Ultimates. It refers to the collective group of people-that-are-more-than-just-people, and includes mutants, humans who have been enhanced cybernetically or genetically, heroes and villains whose abillities are magical or mystical in origin, and the results of freak accidents, like the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. Though not Millar's invention, he was the first to bring it into comic books and apply it to the group of people including superheroes and supervillains. Interestingly, and appropriately for Marvel characters, posthuman fiction also sometimes refers to them as homo excelsior.

Can't forget about homo supreme (Mr. Immortal)... always trying to one-up Flatman.

We could always call them by the primarily DC terminology of "Metahuman"...

[Eddie G.]

Dr. Strange, at least to me, seemingly wouldn't qualify, as he's just an ordinary guy with specialized knowledge and ability that anyone could learn, but I guess that's enough.

To be fair though things like the use of tools are considered part of evolution and have an effect on one species becoming a new one. In fact, people simply hanging out with each other and forming relationships is considered one of the biggest adapations of Homo Sapiens. Dr. Strange lives his life and functions in a way that most (almost all) humans don't so I think it's fair to give him the Post-human title.

I think mutants are treated differently when you bring in the evolution factor to the table. Hominids replace other hominids, this is why Homo Erectus no longer exists. Homo Sapiens started out in Africa and spread out filling in the niches that H. Erectus once filled. The scary thought is that one day Homo Superior will eventually take over (Not anymore because of those damn genies and bottles but whatever) and there will be no more humans. Worst of all, if Homo Superior is really a different species diverging from Homo Sapiens then does that mean mutants are naturally more equiped to live? I forget the specifics but I remember thinking Marvels did a good job explaining why people would hate mutants.

It's a similar behavior to people being against gay marriage because they think it invalidates or takes away from heterosexual marriage, or Europeans trying to deny that life started in Africa. People don't like other groups and put them down because they see them as a threat to the pride of their group.

Here's how the American Heritage Dictionary defines those two words:

Mutant (noun): an individual or organism differing from the parental strain as a result of chromosomal alteration.

He's not a mutant because he was born as a human. Your definition of mutant states this. To be more specific, there really isn't a chromosomal alteration, he's still a human as far as genetics go. Calling him a mutant is like calling a guy with one arm a mutant.
__________________

[Marc]

I've always liked the theory that most, if not all of the super powered characters in the Marvel universe are "mutants". I'm aware of the terminology of the Marvel universe, where mutants are considered a race, but the term "mutant" also can refer to other things as well, i.e. mutated humans. So technically speaking, the Fantastic Four are mutants. They're not true mutants as far as Marvel-speak goes, but they are mutants.

For example, Wolverine is a natural mutant and Daredevil is an unnatural, or artificial, mutant. Characters like the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-man, they're all mutated humans, yes? But that's exactly what the X-men are too. Similarly, the X-men are human beings; they just have "extra" powers, hence the title "x-MEN". (I never cared for the theory that the "X" stands for ("Xavier's Team"). The difference in all this is that people like Xavier and Magneto and Cyclops were born with their mutant "x-genes" active, which took affect and gave them superpowers when they reached puberty, while the Fantastic Four were involved in an accident which gave them their powers.

The theory I was referring to (part of it comes from Earth X and part of it is just my own imagination) has to do with the possibility that all of these "accidents" merely activated the mutant x-genes hidden within these non-mutant characters. For example, when Peter Parker was bitten by the radioactive spider, that accident "activated" his dormant x-gene, giving him spider-like powers. Had Peter been born a "mutant" with his x-gene active, then at puberty he would have developed his spider powers "naturally" without ever having received that spider bite. These accidents involving cosmic rays or gamma rays, radioactive spiders, super soldier serums, or even car accidents, merely served to unlock the hidden potential within these people.

I know it sounds fishy, and it's all just my opinion. Of course, I also think that the Punisher is a mutant, so maybe I'm just an idiot. Pay no attention to me.

- Marc

[Sharklady]

> And sharklady; in the Marvel Universe, anyone who gained their powers through an external source, ala radiation or cosmic waves, is not a mutant. <

But that is correct usage of the term in real life. The last I heard, genetic changes caused by radiation and cosmic rays were properly called "mutations."

FYI: Here's wikapedia's explaination of exactly what cosmic rays are, FF ref included:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_rays

And here's their explaination of what mutations are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

Admittedly, one can't expect comic books to deal with these subjects realistically. Actual mutations generally have neutral or deleterious effects, so aren't really very promising fodder for superhero stories.

[RAINMAN]

As for Xavier, he's drilled it into his students heads that they can't lead normal lives. They're mutants, so they have to live apart, learning to fight other teams of mutants in what must appear to the public as some sort of militant mutant gang war. Xavier makes his students wear masks and use codenames to hide their identities, rather than let them publicly show their faces and stand up for their rights. He's basically encouraged an "us vs. them" attitude between mutants and humans that's solving nothing.



That not true. Charles fight for a world were humans and mutant can live together in peace. The only reason why it had not solve nothing is due to rouge mutants like the brotherhood,apolacleys and magnato in the past causeing all sorts of trouble which lead to humans hateing/fearing muntans more then they alrady do. He has theme live apart cause he know humantly is not ready to accept muntants yet, so he came up whit a palce where muntantcan live a bit peacefully and learn to control their powers for the greather good.



Now as far peter,bruse&the reed along sid ehis family goes, they were all normal people whit no hidden genes whatsoever, just ended up that way they are by being at the wrong place at the wrong time. And just like the xmen are useing their new found power fro the greather good. There is nothing wrong whit people getting a gife from the very stars.

[I.R Joey]

I have an idea about this. Maybe some of you will agree.

Hero's like most of the Avengers (they have had some mutants) and the Fantastic four are people who've been transformed by some sort of accident or experiement. Thus in the eyes of the general public most of these people are thought of as either being very cool and interesting (at best) or something to be pittied and stared at (The Thing). Most of these super teams also benefit from having very public, and comparitvly open headquarters which I imagine puts people at ease. Mutants on the other hand are a bit subversive. The very idea of a mutant is someone who's dna has caused them to have inheriant advanteges over other people. In the Darwinian sense (which I assume the MU is operating on) mutations happen when evolution is ready to make another step. In other words mutants aren't just here to live beside us...

They're here to replace us.

The arrival of mutants might subconsciously cause some people to think that nature is ready to phase out regular humanity. Someone used the term post human which is pretty appropriate seeing as how it's used in most Sci-fi. This idea alone could cause quite a bit of anxiety, paranoia and eventually prejudice of course. Plus you throw in the fact that anyone could be a mutant, that you're own children could be mutants and ultimately that you yourself might be a mutant and you have some interesting psychological issues to deal with. Those are my ideas anyway. But I'm only a casual comic fan compared to some of you.

Oh and to be fair The Hulk and Spidey aren't exactly media darlings.

[Sharklady]

^ I'd say you summarized the source of the problem very well, I.R. Joey.

[I.R Joey]

^ I'd say you summarized the source of the problem very well, I.R. Joey.

Well basically Marvels gave me the idea. I just think it's the best theory that's been put forth.

[Doop]

You can argue over whether or not this rationalization actually makes sense, but it's the standard take. You can chalk its unreasonableness up to either the negative consequences of having the X-Men in the rest of Marvel's shared universe, or a commentary on the nature of prejudice itself. Or both, I suppose.

Mind you, I believe the public's perception of the X-Men is far more realistic of what the public would act like in real life than the FF and the Avenger's celebrity status.