"Batman: The Long Halloween" Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

An eerie tale from Batman's early day recounts a year long hunt for a mysterious killer.

BATMAN: THE LONG HALLOWEEN



Written by: Jeph Loeb
Art by: Tim Sale

Taking place during Batman's early days of crime fighting, a mysterious killer who murders his prey only on holidays. Working with District Attorney Harvey Dent and Lieutenant James Gordon, Batman races against the calendar as he tries to discover who Holiday is before he claims his next victim each month. A mystery that has the reader continually guessing the identity of the killer, this story also ties into the events that transform Harvey Dent into Batman's deadly enemy, Two-Face.

Comments?

[oranthal]

i thought it was a fantastic story and well worth the money. the art also depicted the dark tone of the story. however, there some questions that i am not clear on. this where the spoilers begin. do not read on if you plan to read this series.

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1. was catwoman's interest in "the roman" only because he was taking control of gotham which would interfere with their theiving?

2. at the end of the 1st issue, there was bomb that went off in harvey's house yet how did he walk away without a scratch while gilda was in the hospital?

3. gilda was the one who began the killing but harvey then began killing on new years. does that mean gilda stopped killing when harvey began?

4. did harvey know it was gilda who was "holiday"?

5. if gilda started the killing and then harvey began to kill, how is it that Alberto Falcone was named "holiday"? supposedly, harvey killed alberto on new year. did they make a pact with each other? did alberto want to make a name for himself?

[The Guard]

1. was catwoman's interest in "the roman" only because he was taking control of gotham which would interfere with their theiving?

It's hinted at that the two of them might be related in the sequel, DARK VICTORY. But Catwoman's obsession with him carries over from YEAR ONE.

2. at the end of the 1st issue, there was bomb that went off in harvey's house yet how did he walk away without a scratch while gilda was in the hospital?

Magic.

3. gilda was the one who began the killing but harvey then began killing on new years. does that mean gilda stopped killing when harvey began?

I think Dent began the killings.

4. did harvey know it was gilda who was "holiday"?

He knew he was one of the two, and I think he had SOME clue. Calendar Man knew.

5. if gilda started the killing and then harvey began to kill, how is it that Alberto Falcone was named "holiday"? supposedly, harvey killed alberto on new year. did they make a pact with each other? did alberto want to make a name for himself?

Alberto wanted to be more than he was. But read DARK VICTORY.

[CadaverousEyes]

Time for "different interpretation":

3. Dent didn't kill anyone. Alberto faked his death. The wet hair was a red herring.

4. No. (It's building...)

5. Okay, here's where things get kinda iffy. Y'see, a small group of people, myself included, believe that Alberto commited all the murders and that Gilda just went bonkers because her life (and Harvey's) was pretty much ruined. Now, here's a few examples to prove this point

First murder: Okay, maybe possibly she could have done this, however, the Roman did try to have this guy killed before. In Alberto's eyes, he was still a liability.

Second murder: Okay, we are to understand that Gilda, in her dilapidated condition, and with a concussion, was able to outdraw and kill 5 experienced hoods? And we know for a fact that 2 of them were already reaching for their guns. Alberto could do this because he annihilated all of Maroni's guys in March. Once again, he did this because they're a liability. Hey, he can't help it if he's overzealous...

Third murder: Once again, it's doubtful that Gilda was able to follow the Joker in her condition without being seen. Alberto killed him because, that's what, the 2nd or 3rd time that particular bodyguard's let someone slip in?

Fourth "murder": Alberto wasn't shot, he faked his death. Yet Gilda thinks he did shoot him. I do believe someone's losing touch with reality... also notice how there weren't 2 murders on New Year's Eve? How would she know to quit the exact time Alberto tried to fake his death? Answer (maybe): It was him all along.

[kid_flash]

I remember that Gilda confessed to the first and second murders. I don't have it in front of me so I can't be certain, but I'm almost positive...

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Gilda may have confessed to some of the calendar murders in private, but if she really did go insane, she could be confessing to lots of things that she didn't do. It's an interesting theory.

IMO, the whole issue of "who killed who" is one of the major weak points of The Long Halloween. I can buy Harvey and Alberto being killers at different times, but then it seems that Alberto would have been the killer until Harvey starts losing it, but then stop once Harvey starts committing murders himself, only to pick up again once Harvey becomes Two-Face. That seems kind of ridiculous. If Gilda did commit any of the murders, the plausibility issues brought up by CadaverousEyes come into play; if she didn't commit those murders and is just cracking up, then it weakens her confession scene and makes that little epilogue/coda kind of unnecessary.

The other...issue that I have has with the...graphic novel has nothing to do with the murders, but with a...stylistic device, namely Jeph Loeb's overuse of...ellipses. He tends to use them...often. Sometimes multiple times on the same...page. It gets quite...distracting after a while.

-- Ed/Ace

[oranthal]

with the answers that were posted, i think i am still confused as what was the real deal. i guess some things can never be answered.

one question i forgot to ask was how come holiday didn't kill on April fool's day? was there any significance to this?

[CadaverousEyes]

Cause it was the Riddler, and you can't kill a major villain, even if it's an out of continuity story.

They gave two possible answers to this in the book. He either a) decided to take the holiday seriously and not kill, to throw everyone off or b) he did it so everyone would know that Falcone was trying to find the murderer, thus exonerating him from any suspicion that Holiday was on his side.

[Karkull]

I thought that Gilda performed the first two killings (October and November), then stopped when she thought Harvey took over. But it was actually Alberto, who faked his death in December and took over Holiday's M.O. for the January-September killings. Finally Harvey (as Two-Face) performed the final October killing, which means that Holiday is actually three people.

[oranthal]

Originally posted by Karkull
I thought that Gilda performed the first two killings (October and November), then stopped when she thought Harvey took over. But it was actually Alberto, who faked his death in December and took over Holiday's M.O. for the January-September killings. Finally Harvey (as Two-Face) performed the final October killing, which means that Holiday is actually three people.

do you think the moderators would mind if i posted this on the "batman/superman board"? i might get more respones and insights over there. or move this thread over there would be even better.

[kid_flash]

Dude, we're talking about a comic book....it belongs on the Comics board....gotta hold onto what we can.

[oranthal]

Originally posted by kid_flash
Dude, we're talking about a comic book....it belongs on the Comics board....gotta hold onto what we can.

i know that but at the batman board, there is probably a very good chance that people have read the BATMAN comic. the batman board mainly concentrate on the animated series, but other topics relating to anything batman also goes there. considering that my questions are of a batman comic and not other miscellaneous comic, this topic should be able to fall into the batman message board. it is not like i am asking a question about an X-men comic and wanting to post it on the batman board to get more responses. all i want is more feedback on a BATMAN comic in a BATMAN forum.

[Clayface]

Hmmm. Tough call. Technically, this is a comic related question, so it belongs on the Comics Board. But at the same time, you do see occasional posts about Batman comics on the BS&B Board. I'm personally not opposed to you trying to post your question on the BS&B Board, but I'm not sure if my fellow Mods there would agree. Some would make the argument that all the people that read Batman comics also frequent this board, and thus there's no need to put this thread in the BS&B Board. Its worth a shot anyway - you could try putting it up over there, and if it gets moved back here, I can always delete it or join it with this thread. If you do put a similar thread up on the BS&B Board, you might want to put up a little comment about why you're posting it there - like what you said above.

[d4rkkn1ght]

Aside from CadaverousEyes theory, which I believe , did it actually state any solid evidence in Long Halloween that Alberto defienetly killed someone, or was it just Gilda and Harvey. Man I'm confused after reading this topic.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by The Guard
5. if gilda started the killing and then harvey began to kill, how is it that Alberto Falcone was named "holiday"? supposedly, harvey killed alberto on new year. did they make a pact with each other? did alberto want to make a name for himself?

Alberto wanted to be more than he was. But read DARK VICTORY.

Alberto had to be Holiday for AT LEAST Independence Day. Why? Motive. If Gilda or Harvey were Holiday, why would either of them kill the Coroner? Alberto was the only person with the motive to kill the ONE PERSON (in the regular books*) who could possibly know that Alberto Falcone's body isn't the one in his grave. This is also why he kills Carla Viti in "Roman Holiday", because she's getting too close to the truth. I also think that the reason that Loeb & Sale put in Gilda's dialouge in the end was to make the story even MORE ambiguous, and to spark debates just like this one. My final position on this? Alberto is definately Holiday for every murder after New Year's (except for Halloween), and probably Holiday for every one before. Oh, and by the way: Go read Dark Victory.


*In the GN of The Long Halloween, there is an extra section that shows a couple of extra scenes that didn't make it into the book. One of which was Carmine going to look at a body that the Coroner had found washed up in Gotham Harbor after New Year's Eve. The page is basically Carmine looking at a body under the sheet, and saying "Alberto...". Which leads to the speculation that Carmine KNOWS that Alberto is Holiday, even before he's arrested on Labor Day. I wish that it would have made it into the book.

[oranthal]

Originally posted by Clayface
Hmmm. Tough call. Technically, this is a comic related question, so it belongs on the Comics Board. But at the same time, you do see occasional posts about Batman comics on the BS&B Board. I'm personally not opposed to you trying to post your question on the BS&B Board, but I'm not sure if my fellow Mods there would agree. Some would make the argument that all the people that read Batman comics also frequent this board, and thus there's no need to put this thread in the BS&B Board. Its worth a shot anyway - you could try putting it up over there, and if it gets moved back here, I can always delete it or join it with this thread. If you do put a similar thread up on the BS&B Board, you might want to put up a little comment about why you're posting it there - like what you said above.

thanks clayface. after thinking about it, i'm just going to leave as it is. i'll just have to be satisfied with the responses that are here.

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef

Alberto had to be Holiday for AT LEAST Independence Day. Why? Motive. If Gilda or Harvey were Holiday, why would either of them kill the Coroner? Alberto was the only person with the motive to kill the ONE PERSON (in the regular books*) who could possibly know that Alberto Falcone's body isn't the one in his grave. This is also why he kills Carla Viti in "Roman Holiday", because she's getting too close to the truth. I also think that the reason that Loeb & Sale put in Gilda's dialouge in the end was to make the story even MORE ambiguous, and to spark debates just like this one. My final position on this? Alberto is definately Holiday for every murder after New Year's (except for Halloween), and probably Holiday for every one before. Oh, and by the way: Go read Dark Victory.

will dark victory clear up some the mystery from the long halloween?

[The Shade]

I've read both Dark Victory and Long Halloween, two of my favorite Batman stories. Oranthal, Dark Victory, unfortuneatly answers very little Great read though, tells you what happens to the last of the Romans and how their empire finally ends once and for all.

I believe Gilda did it, but Alberto instead of Harvey January on up. But, Harvey might just have been responsible for November, seriously, how can a patient get out of the hopsital undetected? But still, I think she did it, I wish Loeb gave us some better answers though.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by The Shade
But, Harvey might just have been responsible for November, seriously, how can a patient get out of the hopsital undetected?

This is exactly why I don't think that Gilda had anything to do with the murders, especially on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's. It's still possible, but it's VERY unlikely

[oranthal]

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef

This is exactly why I don't think that Gilda had anything to do with the murders, especially on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's. It's still possible, but it's VERY unlikely

so as someone else mentioned it earlier, gilda was "a few cards short of a full deck" by the end of the story?

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by oranthal
so as someone else mentioned it earlier, gilda was "a few cards short of a full deck" by the end of the story?

That's my opinion, yes. I just think it's a more plausible explanation that she goes slightly batty (no pun intended) rather than leave a hospital bed (Thanksgiving), a wheelchair (Christmas), and her own New Year's Eve party in a large trenchcoat, and with a .22, and the assorted Holiday paraphanalia without anyone noticing. But I could be wrong. If there's anything that The Long Halloween showed me, it's that nothing is what it seems.