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  1. #621
    Ash
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    well i remember when toonami was knocked back an hour so kids wb could grabb more ratings from the Pokemon arvo slot on kids wb i knew kids wb and turner warner were like brothers and sisters but giving up ratings is a big ask

  2. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    Gundam Wing is one example (not so sure if you're right about it not being successful in Japan though) but the same cannot be said for various other Gundam series. G Gundam aired on Toonami for a long time it was relatively popular but it was nowhere near the commerical success Gundam Wing was and it isn't remembered as fondly among US viewers. The original Mobile Suit Gundam got taken off prematurely but even during all the time it was on it was not particularly successful. It was closer to a failure. Gundam SEED was a bomb no other way to slice it. 08th MS Team did well enough to get a run in the daytime hours when it was previously a TMR exclusive but that wasn't exactly a big success either.
    In the totality of Gundam-esque series I think you really have to take a step back and look at the time line between [as] and Toonami to get the big picture.

    My general theory is: TPTB for Toonami did an AWESOME job marketing Toonami while that was their only major project. Midnight Run maintained great success but lets face it, not much changed between Toonami and Midnight Run. However, the more Williams Street started extending itself, the more it started to become apparent.

    While Williams Street was focused, Toonami seemed unstoppable. It's that whole branching out and refocusing and then allocating powers to other staffers that I feel starts to show through around the 2001 / 2002 mark.

    Later, of course, you hit the "CN wants to change its identity" crisis and theres a complete skew in philosophies that, once again, becomes very obvious.

    Lets run down the list:
    - Gundam Wing was easily the best supported of all the Gundam series
    - G Gundam debuted in 2002 after Adult Swim was already launched. This was at the point where we already saw Toonami was over the hump and on the decline. It was obvious they made efforts to support the series but not enough effort to ensure they wanted the series. I tend to think G Gundam did relatively well because it was still supported. I actually do run into an amazing amount of people that think the series was good.
    - Gundam Seed felt like an animal that, because of it's censorship, would have been better off on Adult Swim.

    In retrospect, you still have to make good decisions about shows you're going after. I don't tend to think either of the last two were good series for Toonami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    I think you're giving Toonami too much credit if you're saying it's the reason Pokemon came to the US. Pokemon came stateside because of Nintendo first and foremost. It was Pokemon doing incredible in syndication that brought it to KWB and later Cartoon Network and Pokemon is the most significant reason for Saban picking up Digimon and 4Kids getting Yu-Gi-Oh! Toonami certainly helped but you're giving it too much credit if you're saying even Pokemon was brought over because of the action cartoon reruns on Toonami (particularly the anime Sailor Moon and DBZ). Toonami's effect on anime licensing wasn't even that strong until 1999 or 2000 and Pokemon hit in 1998.
    Let me be clear, I'm not giving Toonami full credit for Pokemon being popular, I am suggesting that Toonami helped clear the way to make Pokemon more desirable for KidsWB to pick it up. I believe Toonami demonstrated to all the networks who were veering away from Anime that "It can be cool". We certainly saw a paradigm shift post Sailormoon Rebirth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    DBZ wasn't a big hit in syndication it could have died there but I think that has more to do with the placement than anything else. The show wasn't the most widely syndicated action series. On the other hand what was Toonami before DBZ? Some relatively successful reruns of Western and Japanese action cartoons. Voltron, Robotech and ThunderCat's hay days were long over when Toonami picked them up. They were never even close to as popular as they were in the 80s on Toonami despite no less marketing than Sailor Moon and DBZ would later receive. Then Sailor Moon came along and surprised a lot of people and through Sailor Moon they were finally able to offer US exclusive programming. Then DBZ arrived and was a huge game changer. This show which could have died in syndication was given fair treatment and blew away expectations. So it was granted new episodes like Sailor Moon before it and at it was at that point DBZ started a long career of being one of CN's top rated shows. If you want to give Toonami credit for anything it's shoving DBZ down people's throats until they wanted more. I seem to recall shortly after they got DBZ they started playing the "is Toonami a failed experiment" intersidual.
    Jonny Quest was on Toonami before DBZ. So was Sailormoon. I was tunning into Toonami for those before DBZ came to the block.

    But you're litterally right, its the fact that Toonami helped VERY STRONGLY market DBZ by shoving it down our throats. I give Toonami absolute credit for getting me into DBZ. When I saw DBZ was coming to Toonami, I actually almost gaged. I thought it was stupid when it was running in Syndication on Fox. It was merely the fact Toonami hyped up Dragonball Z so much that I decided to give it a whirl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    Now believe me when I say I'm not trying to downplay Toonami's significance because nothing else could have accomplished what Toonami has and nothing else ever will but it's not all due to the block itself. The block alone did not make Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z and other anime successful. It was being able to air daily at a watchable time among shows for people of similar interests that was the main reason why those shows did well. The packaging and presentation just helped when the shows couldn't do it by themselves.
    Thats really what I am getting at. There are shows that I think would have done a TON better if they had an engine like Toonami behind them. Imagine if Starship Troopers would have been on Toonami, imagine if Action Man would have been on Toonami. Imagine if Exosquad would have been on Toomai. All those were great series that just didn't get support from the places they were syndicated to and ultimately died out before an full on conclusion to their stories.

    Toonami did a lot for the series it was supporting. Heck, even Jonny Quest got more attention just because of it being on Toonami. TBS was going to can that series completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    And the other major factor why Toonami was so successful back then was weaker competition. You don't honestly think DBZ could do as well today on CN as it did on CN back in the early 2000s. Even if it was given all the same benefits. In comparsion even Ben 10 used to do much much better but it's still one of their top rated shows.
    I still think the competition is weaker then Toonami.

    Think about this from a strategy point of view: Whats the stronger position to be on: A unified, well supported force with good insight of whats going on or on the side of a rag, tag random assortment of people who randomly have a WMD that they dont know how to use? Who would you rather work for: A well organized company that provides you a secured job who promotes you based on your merit but gives you every opportunity to be the best employee you can be or a company run by a raving lunatic who got rich by a stroke of luck and you're constantly in fear for your job.

    I think you see where I am going with these examples. DXD and Nicktoons still don't measure up to Toonami because they still don't have those tools in place to cross promote themselves well and the end viewer still feels shaken trying to watch what they want to watch since the schedules aren't consistent. The Hub is been the best grounded block since its release, but since it doesn't have a West and East coast feed, its fighting to keep viewing times reasonable for all US time zones which is causing them to have the net effect of not having shows at optimal times. Cartoon Network is slowly starting to settle down and renormalize, but we just went through a major shake up over there not too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    If Cartoon Network wants to build up a Toonami-like momentum for their action library again the solution is an afternoon action block filled with their top rated action series airing with fair promotion consistently without pre-emption. "If you build it, they will come" that's most of solution at any rate and any added hype they can give it will only help their chances of success. Nick and Disney succeed because they are hype machines. CN spends lots of money on advertising and often on the right advertisements but the Hall of Game efforts over the past 6 months were a complete waste of money and air time which should have been given to their shows.
    Lets be clear, Nicktoons and DX are successful only because they mini-marathon things until people see enough episodes to like the series or feel like they might like it. In the gaming industry, this is pretty much the difference between making / sending out demos vs making kick ass previews.

    Traditionally, a kick ass preview (Toonami's brand of advertising) is ALWAYS more successful then shoving a demo at someone and hoping they play it enough to like it. I believe the same is true about the TV industry too. A very kick ass preview or synposis of the story is likely to bring in viewership more then shoving a gazzilion episodes at people and hope they watch it.

  3. #623
    The Matrix is offline Banned
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    A niche anime block on a niche network in the boondocks of basic cable was not the reason why Pokemon was so desirable for Kids' WB. It was the fact that the video games, trading cards, and toys were flying off shelves. Kids' WB benefited from an abnormally-long fad.

  4. #624
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    I want to stitch my theory together a little here.

    First off, a disclosure: All the info I just gathered comes exclusively off Wikipedia.

    Here's the relevant time lines:
    • March 17, 1997: Toonami premiers.
    • June 1, 1998: Sailormoon premiers on Toonami.
    • August 31, 1998: Dragon Ball Z premiers on Toonami.
    • September 28, 1998: FIRST Pokemon game released in US. (Its note worthy that US sales weren't super. They were good, just not super. They lagged behind other Nintendo games like Zelda by a bunch until the series hit KidsWB).
    • December 1, 1998: Pokemon Trading card game is released in the US.
    • November 10, 1999: Pokemon premiers in the US.


    So there you have it.

    Now once again, to reiterate my point: I'm not saying Toonami DID indirectly give us Pokemon, I said IT MAY HAVE contributed to clearing the way for us to get it.

    It's a theory with circumstantial evidence.

  5. #625
    The Matrix is offline Banned
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    Um, what?

    I'm guessing that Pokemon had a higher initial audience than the number of people who watched Toonami back in 1999. Pokemon, FYI, was the #1 show in the 6-12 age demographic when it premiered on Kids' WB in '99. Toonami couldn't have even come close to that.

    And if Toonami may have influenced the acquisition of Pokemon, you'd think there would have been a gigantic demand for anime through Toonami's ratings beforehand, but Toonami didn't hit its stride ratings-wise until around 2000 or 2001 IIRC.

  6. #626
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    Man, I remember watching the BRAND NEW premiere of Stan Lee's "The Condor", and loving it so much. And I remember debating with my friends if future Trunks was better than older Gohan, good times.

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighthammer View Post
    • November 10, 1999: Pokemon premiers in the US.
    Pokemon premiered in the U.S. in September of 1998, with it's debut on Kid's WB! in February of 1999. The date you've got there is the release of the first Pokemon movie in America
    Animation Revelation All the cool kids are doing it, why aren't you?

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  8. #628
    Lighthammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    And if Toonami may have influenced the acquisition of Pokemon, you'd think there would have been a gigantic demand for anime through Toonami's ratings beforehand, but Toonami didn't hit its stride ratings-wise until around 2000 or 2001 IIRC.
    2001 is actually where Toonami hit a minor hiccup in its ratings. Thats the point where you saw some split in attention from Williams Street between Adult Swim and Toonami.

    Was it bad? Not by any stretch of anyone's imagination, but you could feel a small hiccup there in their attention. It feels almost as they felt like they could throw Toonami into cruise control.

  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighthammer View Post
    2001 is actually where Toonami hit a minor hiccup in its ratings. Thats the point where you saw some split in attention from Williams Street between Adult Swim and Toonami.

    Was it bad? Not by any stretch of anyone's imagination, but you could feel a small hiccup there in their attention. It feels almost as they felt like they could throw Toonami into cruise control.
    You sure about that? I seem to recall DBZ did incredible in 2001.

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  10. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew T. Hingson View Post
    You sure about that? I seem to recall DBZ did incredible in 2001.
    Summer of 2001 is what I remember most vividly. Thats the point where Toonami extended itself into a 3 hour block but didn't really have enough content to fill in their block with good content.

    We ended up seeing Card Captors, DB and DBZ for a few weeks. I also recall Jackie Chan and The Zeta Project being on there some where too, but the Wiki doesn't support that so I don't know for sure >.<

    That summer just felt like they filled in the block with a lot of KidsWB stuff to flesh it out.

    Like I said, in the totality of everything, it wasn't a bad time for Toonami, it was a hiccup IMHO though. It was a point where we saw less concentration on the block and more on Adult Swim and I feel it showed.

    PS you need to get on skype more. Its so much easier to discuss these fun things in live time.

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