Sick sick sick and hateful!

[RockItShipper]

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index...der-statue.inc

One question... Levicitus also states the faithful have to sacrifice new-born pigeons to God. Where's the plans to make that into a statue?

[Stewie]

That guy has no taste.

Oh boy. Based on recent trends, I fear this thread may get ugly.
There's even another Ten Commandments monument involved.

[EinBebop]

One question... Levicitus also states the faithful have to sacrifice new-born pigeons to God. Where's the plans to make that into a statue?

Without condoning the actions in question...

Leviticus is a mixture of moral law and ritual law, the latter of which was abolished by the crucifixion. I have been involved in many disputes over which category individual Old Testament laws fall into. But as a general rule, when the Bible calls something an abomination, I believe you can safely call it a moral law.

[Lucky Bob]

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. Yes, it is an abomination. But they can be forgiven, as well. The guy is making the classic mistake of simply sticking with the Old Testament Law, without looking at the New Testament grace. I would have amended the monument to say:

"Matthew Shepard died unforgiven, but you don't have to."

-Lucky "But no matter how it's said, I'm still a hate-monger, right?" Bob

[Tienshin]

I hate to drop familiar terms often dismissed as PC speak, but this loon is nothing more than an incendiary messenger of hate. The bible does state unequivocally that 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as womankind; it is an abomination.' Leviticus 18:22." But that is not the issue here.

That this person would wantonly suggest celebrating the gruesome murder of another human being for the sake witnessing for God, is yet another example of how ANY religion can be twisted around and used to justify despicable acts. What bothers me about this and really any type of extremist who hides behind a holy book for their fanatical actions, is that those types become so deluded by their call to arms that even the most basic tenets of their beliefs become obscured as they misapply divine justification to actions that society and more importantly their god would deem wrong. Maybe the bible says it’s a sin for a person to be homosexual, but it also says it’s wrong to kill. And reveling in another’s death regardless of their perceived shortcomings is despicable. He is so full of hate for homosexuals that he himself is violating one of the seven deadly sins: wrath. And a holy man such as Rev. Phelps should know that if he feels Matthew Shepard was such a sinner then he should be praying for his soul and no spitting on his grave.

[RockItShipper]

The thing, I see too many examples of Church doctrine being influenced by SECULAR factors. Political and social pressures, keeping a steady if not increasing amount of followers, etc. And therein lies the reason for the traditions against homosexuality. If you're in a same sex relationship, you can't breed more followers. The Greek-Roman world dealt with this by making child-bearing a civic duty, but was open to outside activities as well.

And just a thought... Christianity was founded as a Jewish reform movement. Joseph could have easily gone to one of the Pharisees and said his fiancee/wife was pregnant without his involvement, and been considered in the absolute moral right. But ultimately, he went with his intuition instead of the absolutes. The absolutes written down are subject to the world of man, subject to secular issues that have passed into "tradition". And of course we have editors from antiquity and translators...

[Lucky Bob]

The thing, I see too many examples of Church doctrine being influenced by SECULAR factors. Political and social pressures, keeping a steady if not increasing amount of followers, etc. And therein lies the reason for the traditions against homosexuality. If you're in a same sex relationship, you can't breed more followers. The Greek-Roman world dealt with this by making child-bearing a civic duty, but was open to outside activities as well.

*wonders how the Shakers got started, if that's true*

-Lucky "Hmmmmm, they COULD carve little wooden followers..." Bob

[RockItShipper]

*wonders how the Shakers got started, if that's true*

-Lucky "Hmmmmm, they COULD carve little wooden followers..." Bob

Perhaps not everyone needs their religion to spread throughout the world in order to prove its validity.`

[Lucky Bob]

Perhaps not everyone needs their religion to spread throughout the world in order to prove its validity.`

I was addressing the social issue. Shakers thought the actions required to procreate "sinful". Thus, they encouraged 100% abstinence. True, there aren't many today, but that didn't stop 'em from spreading in the 1830s.

BTW, and this is merely my impression, but have you got something against religion? I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find a religion that didn't want to spread itself. But that is because they believe in the first place. What are you trying to say?

-Lucky "Eh, too much for my shallow mind this evening" Bob

[Classic Speedy]

Wow, this preacher is messed up. Erecting a statue of a murdered HUMAN BEING! It doesn't matter if this guy happened to like men- he was still a living, breathing creature created by God. This preacher is degrading life by making this, which goes against the teachings of Christianity. I believe homosexuality isn't biblical, but jeepers, I don't erect statues saying that those like them will go to Hell. That's absurd to the 9th degree.

[Eddy]

That preacher is just distirbing. Even if this man was homosexual, celebrating his horrible and painful death is just WRONG. Now, I'm a Christian myself and I don't have a problem with people being homosexuals. It was THEIR choice, we shouldn't tell them how to live their lives.

But I may not have a problem with them because I'm not a Religious fanatic. I know some people do have a a very big problem with homosexuality... but CELEBRATING the death of a fellow human being? That is just wrong.

[Weatherman]

Why hasn't this nutcase been institutionalized yet. It seems quite evident that he's completely sociopathic and extremely unstable. And I'm quite sure the city will reject his "proposal" outright. If he wants to build it infront of his "church", he's more then free to, but I can garuntee the city will never let it be built there.

[Drachentöter]

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. Yes, it is an abomination. But they can be forgiven, as well. The guy is making the classic mistake of simply sticking with the Old Testament Law, without looking at the New Testament grace. I would have amended the monument to say:

"Matthew Shepard died unforgiven, but you don't have to."

-Lucky "But no matter how it's said, I'm still a hate-monger, right?" Bob

Lots of gay people would disagree with your first statements, Lucky Bob. It's about equivalent of saying "being a white male is an abomination." I always try to use more tactful speech.

I think putting up a monument that bears any message with the intention of condeming homosexuality would be an insult to his memory and absolutely tactless.

[EinBebop]

Lots of gay people would disagree with your first statements, Lucky Bob.

Good point. I'll write a letter to the author and ask him to leave that part out of the next edition.

[Delthayre]

I don't understand people like this. They are deluded zealots, one of the worst kind of scum.

What I really can't grasp is why it matters at all to them. I had thought that the intent of evangelical christianity, as distasteful as a I find actively seeking to convert, was to "save" people. If so, then why is there so much hate rather thank compassion. Why do they howl and screech at these people rather than welcome them with concialliatory hope that they may return them to a less deviant path?

But what really bothers me about fundamentalists, too many of whom I find contemptible, is that they are a product of recent history, a reactionary group (much the same applies to Islamic fundamentalists). And their interpertation of scripture is bothersomely selective. There are many things, many levitical laws, that they ignore.

[EinBebop]

I already addressed the levitical law issue. Jesus' atonement on the cross eliminated the need for sacrifice and all of the ritual purity that went along with it. The New Testament is consistent on that fact.

The compassionate Christians greatly outnumber the hateful ones, Delthayre, but you'll see what you choose to see. I find that many Christians today are compassionate to a fault, embracing the sin as well as the sinner in the name of tolerance.

Tolerance has been misinterpreted to mean unconditional agreement. By its very definition, tolerance can only be a reaction to something that you do not like.

[zmanjz]

I was addressing the social issue. Shakers thought the actions required to procreate "sinful". Thus, they encouraged 100% abstinence. True, there aren't many today,

That must explain why "Shaker Style" wooden furniture is so hard to find.

[jeffrey 228]

Well I seem to find that very curel and bad, I mean making it to a statue, that is just going to make the animal activists come after them for doing such a sad and just curel thing to them new pigeons, that is just sad to myself they have to be like that.

[Delthayre]

I already addressed the levitical law issue. Jesus' atonement on the cross eliminated the need for sacrifice and all of the ritual purity that went along with it. The New Testament is consistent on that fact.

I am quite aware of that. I should have been clearer that I was not really referring to Levitacl law, although I believe there are still applicable elements that are widely ignored. Prooftexting is not uncommon among some fundamentalist circles.

The compassionate Christians greatly outnumber the hateful ones, Delthayre, but you'll see what you choose to see.

I realize that too, I am know that firsthand. But I let my my persistent frustrations get the better of me for most of that paragraph. And could have done without the last clause of the quoted sentence, seems downright smarmy.

Tolerance has been misinterpreted to mean unconditional agreement. By its very definition, tolerance can only be a reaction to something that you do not like.

Yes, I know.

[Slappyfanatic]

Just an idiot using his faith as an excuse for his intolerance. I find most fundamentalists to be extremely creepy individuals.
Being gay is not evil and despite what may be written in an ancient tome, is NOT a sin. The people who wrote said tome just happened to be from a less enlightened era when such things weren't fully understood ( the ancients thought the Earth was flat too ).
I know that some people believe the Bible is the word of God, but even if this is true ( I personally don't believe so ) it was still physically written by humans and all humans are flawed. The fact that such hatred still exists in this day and age is simply disturbing.
If sex related activities were really evil then we wouldn't have exterior sexual organs. Biological functions are not evil, if they were it simply defies logic and the laws of nature ( homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom too ).
Humans are simply evolved animals and are tied to nature just as much as every other life form on the planet. Pity some humans are too arrogant to accept this