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  1. #301
    The ShopSoldier's Avatar
    The ShopSoldier is offline DISGRACED, yet CONFIDENT...
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    Quote Originally Posted by macattack View Post
    The webcomic XKCD today posted a strip codifying what I believe to be is an increasingly popular attitude among a sect of Americans, that unless you agree with "their" definitions of what's right and wrong, that you should be ostracized, boycotted, embarrassed, and otherwise removed from the public sphere (such as what happened in the Mozilla CEO kerfuffle).
    I really think this article, especially the part about such a thing as stupid opinions sums up my feelings truly about what's going on here...

    The 4 Most Useless Pieces of Advice Everyone Believes | Cracked.com
    Tropes that are ruining Western/European Animation (and any animes involving school):
    Spoiler:
    1. Twins and/or Rich Kids as antagonists; Bullies in general. 2. Annoying jerk sibling characters and/or General sibling characters who hate each others' guts. 3. Hidden Caucasian male dominance (usually subverted to be female in anime, which can be equally as bad – and a real turnoff in general!).

  2. #302
    stephane dumas is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by macattack View Post

    It's a little microcosm of what is slowly happening in society today, and puts the Bundy Ranch episode into a larger context. People are increasingly feeling like their viewpoints are being treated as illegal and bigoted, and so they are beginning to grow restless and angry. Yes, a lot of those "militia" were definitely there to seek a fight, though they wisely did not shoot because they were aware that would destroy their side of the debate (which is also why the Feds didn't open fire). But if you clamp down on debate and proclaim "the debate is over, shut up", when the other side feels that the debate is NOT over, it will make the other side more open to committing violence instead of working with the political system.
    Let's just hope then a small spark won't ignite something worse. A bit off-topic but with what happen in Ukraine, it like almost like we're sit on a powder keg. I saw that article from the Winnipeg Free Press, dated from March 10 about parallels between 2014 and 1914. Parallels of 1914 and 2014 - Winnipeg Free Press The American Thinker posted an article on the same subject but think of a different scenario.

    With all that "non-PC speech", looks like editorial cartoonist Chip Bok summarized it well with this editorial toon. Friday Funnies: Modern Debate - Hit & Run : Reason.com

  3. #303
    The ShopSoldier's Avatar
    The ShopSoldier is offline DISGRACED, yet CONFIDENT...
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    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capit...a4bcf6878.html

    As This Article heroically states (ignoring the comments), Oklahoma clearly hates the middle class and the poor. The cold harsh reality is that sooner or later, the minimum wage must be raised, regardless of inflation - FACT.
    Tropes that are ruining Western/European Animation (and any animes involving school):
    Spoiler:
    1. Twins and/or Rich Kids as antagonists; Bullies in general. 2. Annoying jerk sibling characters and/or General sibling characters who hate each others' guts. 3. Hidden Caucasian male dominance (usually subverted to be female in anime, which can be equally as bad – and a real turnoff in general!).

  4. #304
    stephane dumas is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by The ShopSoldier View Post
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capit...a4bcf6878.html

    As This Article heroically states (ignoring the comments), Oklahoma clearly hates the middle class and the poor. The cold harsh reality is that sooner or later, the minimum wage must be raised, regardless of inflation - FACT.
    Unfortunately, Oklahoma City isn't the only one hating the middle-class, you can add Chicago to the list. As for the minimun wage, let's check to see the differents approaches then Germany (some said then it could help France) and Switzerland will do to avoid unintended consequences.

  5. #305
    GWOtaku's Avatar
    GWOtaku is online now Moderator
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    On Free Speech As A Principle

    In post #300 Wounded Dragon laments the problem of substituting feelings for argument, which is relevant to me for different reasons because many (all?) aggressive attempts at shutting down expression from the outset really have to do with feelings rather than anything resembling reason. Consider Brandeis University's timid and hypocritical withdrawal of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's honorary degree and invitation to speak at commencement. This was all about people taking offense at the very prospect of her presence at that event, absent any real engagement with her views and where they come from (real world experience in large part, by the way) and the extent to which she has a serious point even if one thinks she goes too far in making it. What's behind that and recurring attempts by groups of students across the country to shout down or otherwise stonewall a speaker on a college campus is a super messed up impulse to prioritize unoffended sensibilities over any semblance of debate, even though this is an environment where fostering that is supposed to be a major point of the whole thing.

    Similarly, the widespread censorship of the Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad, the censoring of South Park's 201 and the hiatus of the Super Best Friends episode (is that still going?) stems from taboos enforced by the prospect of violence. The interest in not offending is profoundly inconsistent, as South Park lampshaded by lampooning other things sacred (& much more) in 201 and throughout its entire run without a hint of censorship notwithstanding no shortage of outspoken verbal complaints.

    XKCD's free speech comic is terribly inadequate and symbolic of how the subject is misunderstood or underappreciated. Some have defended it by saying its point is to basically call out the entitlement complexes of jerks who get nasty online and then go "HEY MAN, BACK OFF, FREE SPEECH" in a lame attempt to preemptively shut down any debate and pushback against what they did. That point is certainly in there, and I agree with it. However, I also find it careless and thoughtless in spots. Panel 3 says free speech isn't protection against criticism or consequences, panel 4 feels the need to throw in that remark about rights not being violated if someone's TV show is cancelled or otherwise denied a platform. Putting aside that this could be taken as an endorsement of the complaining side of the ridiculous #CancelColbert campaign fiasco, the point is shallow.

    No one disputes that Brandeis can invite and disinvite as it chooses, no one disputes that Comedy Central has the right to broadcast what it wants to, etc. Believe it or not, apparently only four states have laws that explicitly prohibit firing people for expressing a political viewpoint in the workplace. That doesn't begin to end the conversation. This point was marched out by some people when 201 was censored, and I'll say again what I said in my long essay against that on Toonzone at the time: having the right to censor is a separate matter from whether that is something that should be done.

    XKCD's comic and way too many people commit the error of conceiving of free speech as just a matter of legal technicality, as if there is no spirit of the law to live up to and our culture has no role to play in sustaining a free society. That way lies reasoning that could justify the Hollywood blacklist of the 1940s and 50s born of the "Red Scare" and justify similar practices in today's context, where this would be no less pernicious whatever anyone might say about doing it in the name of "justice" or any other virtue. The problem is that's defined as what a clear consensus is considered to be (an insistence on some issues being "settled", you might say), and a huge point of the principle of free speech and other rights is to protect minorities from majoritarian tyranny. Movements for so many civil rights taken for granted today began as the work of people who were very much outside of the mainstream. In the realms of academia, science and intellectual thought, it's a necessary principle for averting the danger of groupthink and epistemic closure.

    So rather than the question of when something is "settled", my concern is that force not be wielded to impose conclusions. On top of everything else said, this is more likely to breed resentment and opposition than to reduce it. And if an argument is supposed to be so powerfully in your favor then one should have the confidence in its victory to honestly and forthrightly make it, rather than trying to make any and all opposition taboo and out of bounds in polite society as though you were afraid of it.
    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson
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  6. #306
    wonderfly's Avatar
    wonderfly is online now In the not too distant future
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    Put another way: "You're going to disagree with us on Subject X, Y, or Z? Okay, the government can't arrest you, but hey, I have the right to treat you like this:"


  7. #307
    Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
    Shawn Hopkins is offline TZ Member of the Year 2013
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    I'm on the mailing lists for both the Democrat and Republican parties and get all their e-mails begging for cash. Today I got one from G. H. W. Bush. It's about socks. Presented without context, cause it's way funnier that way, the opening lines:

    I don't know what your guilty pleasures are in life, but one of mine is socks.

    I'm a self-proclaimed sock man. The louder, the brighter, the crazier the pattern -- the better! It's usually the first thing people notice I'm wearing whenever I'm out in public and that's the way I like it.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 04-21-2014 at 04:22 PM.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

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