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  1. #681
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    WH spokesman Jay Carney says the Dept of the Interior has basically arranged for an exception for the WWII vets that are scheduled to visit the Memorial over the coming days, so that is one issue aside as near as I can tell.

    While Republicans would clearly rather replace Obamacare, all should keep in mind that what's at sake in the present now is not repeal or even defunding but the prospect of a delay of the individual mandate for one year (barring some paradigm shift, but that's not bloody likely). The WH's position that the bill is unadjustable and sacrosanct would be more compelling if so much of it hadn't already been deferred by the Obama administration's own directives. That said, I still think this shutdown is foolish on so many levels.
    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson
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  2. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWOtaku View Post
    WH spokesman Jay Carney says the Dept of the Interior has basically arranged for an exception for the WWII vets that are scheduled to visit the Memorial over the coming days, so that is one issue aside as near as I can tell.

    While Republicans would clearly rather replace Obamacare, all should keep in mind that what's at sake in the present now is not repeal or even defunding but the prospect of a delay of the individual mandate for one year (barring some paradigm shift, but that's not bloody likely). The WH's position that the bill is unadjustable and sacrosanct would be more compelling if so much of it hadn't already been deferred by the Obama administration's own directives. That said, I still think this shutdown is foolish on so many levels.
    I think maybe they're afraid that if they give an inch on the mandate, they'll be put in a position to give a mile in the upcoming debt limit fight. Doesn't look like it matters, now, though, because it's possible the shutdown will simply stretch into the debt limit fight and they'll do them together.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

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  3. #683
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    About the big bad government making you do stuff...and buy things...here is another example ...short read..

    President Carter wanted the car manufacturers to put in seat belts. .He negotiated with them.. Just like Obama really reduced the scope of the ACA to include insurance companies if states wanted. It was up to the states..So Carter got the car makers to promise 6 years into the future..mid 80s..that they would put them in ..Remember the ACA was passed 3 years ago...ok. ...(in l979 there were 53000 deaths on the highway)..check it out if you want to..

    Ok so they put them in, and there is this big argument about putting them on...there were there, but you did not have to put them on....Restriction of freedom, the gov has no right to tell me what to do...I was part of that argument in the early 90s..I taught in a high school and the students arguedt they did not want to be told what to do....so ...I argued back that it was much safer..They argued back to me that was up to them.
    ...Ok...so they make it mandatory that people wear them..a buzzer was put in, and told you if you didn't have them on (later they took it out..didn't work well) ....ok..then, as extra added safety they started offering at a huge cost..air bags...yes indeed..Under Clinton the mandate became seat belts front and back. and front air bags...ok...so...in the 90s..they started passing state laws,,you had to put them on ..no they cried..yes the states said...much safer.. Now let's speed it up...today..airbags front and side...seat belts for six in six seated cars...crumple zones . extra added lites to warn people..(there is a funny brake lite located usually in the rear window that reduces reaction time..the federal gov mandated that ...No shutdown, everyone agreed ok, but the car manufacturers said they would go broke putting them in in the 90s..nope..What is the point you ask? Was it good for the country??
    Last year...approximately 33,000 deaths on the highway...that is a 40 percent reduction...in death, no one knows how much reduction in serious injury..savings in the tens of billions over years..
    That is with a 40 percent increase in cars and population since 1979...with a 40 percent reduction in death...
    The big bad government intruded to .....save hundreds of thousands of lives.(yes..over thirty years it is that much......and ..no shut down...people accepted the laws....they were laws... in time they worked...as will..ACA...You have no idea what it is like to refuse help cause you have no insurance. .Friends and relatives die....that is a lot more important then yelling socialist at this President...It is legal, it is the law, the Supreme Court says so...let it be..it will save lives, and tens of billions of dollars too. (in the long run, it will be hundreds of billions...but that will take time like the seat belts...this is an easy one...just like the seat belts..give it a chance ..it may help you or a friend or someone you love...
    “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it...Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. ” –Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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  4. #684
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    I feel that the moderate Conservative is dead. Now there's nowhere in between in the political spectrum.
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  5. #685
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    Just to clarify my answer to Mac's argument, here's a visual representation.



    Reid did try to negotiate today, but not on dismantling Obamacare in exchange for doing their jobs. He offered a budget conference on tax reform if the shutdown was ended. This was quickly thrown back in his face.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/326137-reid-offers-to-talk-tax-reform-if-gop-funds-government

    “I commit to name conferees to a budget conference, as soon as the government reopens,” Reid wrote. “This conference would be an appropriate place to have those discussions, where participants could raise whatever proposals — such as tax reform, health care, agriculture, and certainly discretionary spending like veterans, National Parks and NIH — they felt appropriate.”


    Boehner’s office said Reid’s terms would give Democrats exactly what they want. “The entire government is shut down right now because Washington Democrats refuse to even talk about fairness for all Americans under ObamaCare,” Boehner spokesman Michael Steel said. “Offering to negotiate only after Democrats get everything they want is not much of an offer.”

    Sounds like they don't want to give up their leverage.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 10-02-2013 at 06:37 PM.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

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  6. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWOtaku View Post
    The WH's position that the bill is unadjustable and sacrosanct would be more compelling if so much of it hadn't already been deferred by the Obama administration's own directives. That said, I still think this shutdown is foolish on so many levels.
    I'm inclined to agree, truth be told. Granted, I've never cared one bit to debate "Obamacare", I don't really like many provisions of it, but didn't care enough to rally against it. The law passed (admittedly, in a contentious manner) so it's the law of the land.

    Having said that, I do think Obama loves being put in a situation where he can blame Republicans, so I feel like shouting at Obama "Just compromise with them for heaven's sake!"

    I've got right-wing family members who would love to see the shut down go on indefinitely, I've got a relative who was in my house griping "How long do you think till the Republicans cave in? Bunch of cowards, they never stand up to the President, blah, blah..." So there are conservatives who think the Republicans aren't doing enough...


    To carry through with the "hostage taker" metaphor, that puts Obama in the role of leader saying "we don't negotiate with terrorists". Thereby consigning the hostages (aka the federal budget) to life in a prison cell in some third world country...

    Unless Obama orders a SWAT team to storm the hostage taker's bunker...

  7. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderfly View Post
    I'm inclined to agree, truth be told. Granted, I've never cared one bit to debate "Obamacare", I don't really like many provisions of it, but didn't care enough to rally against it. The law passed (admittedly, in a contentious manner) so it's the law of the land. Having said that, I do think Obama loves being put in a situation where he can blame Republicans, so I feel like shouting at Obama "Just compromise with them for heaven's sake!" I've got right-wing family members who would love to see the shut down go on indefinitely, I've got a relative who was in my house griping "How long do you think till the Republicans cave in? Bunch of cowards, they never stand up to the President, blah, blah..." So there are conservatives who think the Republicans aren't doing enough... To carry through with the "hostage taker" metaphor, that puts Obama in the role of leader saying "we don't negotiate with terrorists". Thereby consigning the hostages (aka the federal budget) to life in a prison cell in some third world country... Unless Obama orders a SWAT team to storm the hostage taker's bunker...
    But governments who don't give in to terrorist demands don't put hostage in bunkers, the terrorists do. They instigate and carry out the acts, usually because they want something too extreme to accomplish through normal channels.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 10-03-2013 at 06:13 AM.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

  8. #688
    stephane dumas is offline Senior Member
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  9. #689
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    “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it...Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. ” –Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    ...... Peace, Faith, Love, and Hope.

  10. #690
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    Why both compromise and practicing the art of the possible is not synonymous with losing, timidity, etc. At the moment everyone who's a player is apparently Calvin, but also this is what the Ted Cruz block in the house didn't and doesn't understand.

    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson
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  11. #691
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    With all of the craziness surrounding the shutdown, I almost forgot about this one. Silk Road, the online Dark Net drug market, was raided by the FBI. It promised safe encrypted drug purchases, but a little bit of human error and detective work was all the FBI needed to crack its security.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24371894

    Feds Allege Silk Road's Boss Paid For Murders Of Both A Witness And A Blackmailer - Forbes

    So, yeah, that's it, then. If you put something online, no matter how careful you are with your security and encryption, someone can intercept it. That's just the way it works now. It definitely makes online crime seem like a really bad idea.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

  12. #692
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    The bad part is that Silk Road provided safe and pure drugs. Yes, it's illegal activity, but you're taking all those people who would buy them online and making them buy them back on the streets once again which leads to a lot more problems at a local level than victimless crime online would have.
    Yup. It's a signature. Go away if you're expecting something interesting here.

  13. #693
    Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hazuda View Post
    The bad part is that Silk Road provided safe and pure drugs. Yes, it's illegal activity, but you're taking all those people who would buy them online and making them buy them back on the streets once again which leads to a lot more problems at a local level than victimless crime online would have.
    Victimless? DPR put out two hits. That we know of.

    Also, I'm skeptical of this safe and pure drugs thing. I know there's probably a feedback system, but there's a feedback system on eBay, too, and people have screwed me over repeatedly there. And getting bad drugs is a little worse than getting a comic book in lower condition than advertised. Plus, there's no legal authority to prosecute fraud, that's why DPR put the hit on the first scammer mentioned in the Forbes article.

    A lot of the users of this are confident they aren't in danger of being identified, but I dunno. I recently took a network security class and one of the first things the professor said was the 100 percent secure systems are impossible, unless you design them in such a way that no human could use them. There's always going to be a glitch, a loophole, an exploit, or a human error. And if 100 percent security is impossible, then 100 percent anonymity is impossible, too. It's even worse when the government is cracking away at something. They aren't script kiddies that have to be careful not to get caught. They have nearly unlimited resources, the power to seize servers and systems, the power to make ISPs and other companies work with them. They'll find any chinks in the armor. Maybe in some cases they can be beaten, but that's a risky proposition and it sure didn't work out for Silk Road.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 10-03-2013 at 10:19 AM.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

  14. #694
    GWOtaku's Avatar
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    Boehner might be making a move to dodge default & address the looming debt ceiling deadline:

    http://www.nytimes.com/news/fiscal-c...-default/?_r=0
    With a budget deal still elusive and a deadline approaching on raising the debt ceiling, Speaker John A. Boehner has told colleagues that he is determined to prevent a federal default and is willing to pass a measure through a combination of Republican and Democratic votes, according one House Republican.

    The lawmaker, who spoke on the condition of not being named, said Mr. Boehner indicated he would be willing to violate the so-called Hastert rule if necessary to pass a debt limit increase. The informal rule refers to a policy of not bringing to the floor any measure that does not have a majority of Republican votes.

    Other Republicans also said Thursday that they got the sense that Mr. Boehner, who held two meetings Wednesday with groups of House moderates, would do whatever was necessary to ensure that the country did not default on its debt.

    Representative Mike Fitzpatrick, Republican of Pennsylvania, was one of just 22 House Republicans this year who helped Mr. Boehner pass three crucially important bills — to avert a fiscal showdown, to provide relief for the victims of Hurricane Sandy, and to pass the Violence Against Women Act — with a majority of Democratic support. He said he expected he might be asked to do so again.

    “Hurricane Sandy, the fiscal cliff — all of the big votes require reasonable Republicans and Democrats to come together in order to pass it and get it to the president’s desk,” he said. “This will be no different.”

    And, Mr. Fitzpatrick added, “I’ve been there in the past and I’m prepared to be there again.”

    Representative Leonard Lance of New Jersey, one of the moderate Republicans who met privately with Mr. Boehner on Wednesday, would not provide details of the meeting, but said, “The speaker of the House does not want to default on the debt on the United States and I believe he believes in Congress as an institution, and I certainly believe he is working for the best interests of the American people.”

    Passing a measure with a majority of Democratic votes could bring Mr. Boehner trouble from his right flank. He has so far refused to bring to the floor a measure that could halt the shutdown but that would require significant support from Democrats.

    Though not addressing the Hastert rule specifically, a spokesman for Mr. Boehner said that the speaker knew that a default must be headed off.

    “The speaker has always been clear that a default would be disastrous for our economy,” said Michael Steel, a spokesman for Mr. Boehner. “He’s also been clear that a ‘clean’ debt hike cannot pass the House. That’s why the president and Senate Democrats should drop their ‘no negotiations’ stance, and work with us on a plan to raise the debt limit in a responsible way, with spending cuts and reforms to get our economy moving again and create jobs.”

    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson
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  15. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartoonFridays View Post
    I feel that the moderate Conservative is dead. Now there's nowhere in between in the political spectrum.
    Consider how Obama leans right on a number of issues and his healthcare plan was originally proposed by conservatives, you could say that there are still moderate conservatives, they're just in the Democratic party.
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  16. #696
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    Here's some clarification to the clip Mac posted about Harry Reid. It's just an old Breitbart trick, shameless selective reporting.

    Much ado about Harry Reid and NIH - POLITICO.com

    What actually happened:

    During a press briefing on Wednesday, CNN's Dana Bash asked Sen. Reid if the Senate would follow the House in voting to fund the National Institutes of Health (NIH) during the shutdown. Sen. Reid replied by saying House Speaker John Boehner should not be allowed "cherry-pick" which government insitutions shut down and which stay open.


    Bash then asked Sen. Reid, "But if you can help one child with cancer, why wouldn't you do it?"


    At that point, Sen. Chuck Schumer, who was standing next to Sen. Reid, said to Bash, "Why pit one against the other?" After which, Sen. Reid said, "Why would we want to do that?"


    The headline that made Drudge, below two photographs of Sen. Reid: "'WHY WOULD WE WANT TO' HELP ONE KID WITH CANCER?"


    I can't imagine the intellectual leaps and bounds you'd have to go through to arrive at the conclusion that Sen. Reid doesn't care about cancer patients. Even if you got rid of Sen. Schumer's remark, you'd still run into a little thing called "context." After getting rid of context, you'd probably run into the inconvenient fact that Sen. Reid's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer just two years ago.


    "Anybody who watched the clip can tell that he is rejecting the Republicans piecemeal approach," Reid spokesperson Adam Jentleson told POLITICO. "Nobody cares more about making sure that people with cancer get the treatment they deserve than Sen. Reid."
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

  17. #697
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    Brietbert's video is fine (I can attest it is now, anyway), it's the quote that's incomplete. They used CNN's segment with that whole exchange. The context remains that Reid won't prioritize funding the NIH over this principle that funding has to be all or nothing with no compromises - supposedly no matter how long that it might take to get there.

    The thing is...I'll be that guy and point out that military pay was sustained for the duration of the shutdown. The principle is already broken. And yeah, I'll say it...I'd put NIH first. I imagine that if I were a soldier myself, that would be my preference.

    Edit: I just caught that shots have been fired near the U.S. Capitol. I don't know any details yet. This week just keeps getting better and better......
    Edit 2: ABC 7 says there is a detained suspect. 3 injuries, no fatalities reported at this time.
    Edit 3: Now the TV says a female suspect was shot and killed. Sigh.
    I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art. But what would a cartoonist know? -Bill Watterson
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  18. #698
    Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    People at the Capitol are sheltering in place because of the shooting, Congress is in recess. Man, this is disturbing.

    Congress locked down due to shooter situation – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

    Jake Tapper is saying that the incident started at the White House. If that's true could it have been an assassination attempt?
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

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  19. #699
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    The word now is that a female suspect is dead, & as you say that she started trying to access the White House and settled for the Capitol. I can definitely see this being another very disturbed person, but given the targets and what's going on there's always the chance of a vendetta being involved also. I don't know what to think about it right now.

    Oh, also, I don't think there's any more immediate danger. I hear the Capitol and White House aren't on lockdown at this point.
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  20. #700
    Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWOtaku View Post
    The word now is that a female suspect is dead, & as you say that she started trying to access the White House and settled for the Capitol. I can definitely see this being another very disturbed person, but given the targets and what's going on there's always the chance of a vendetta being involved also. I don't know what to think about it right now. Oh, also, I don't think there's any more immediate danger. I hear the Capitol and White House aren't on lockdown at this point.
    Yeah, it's too early really to know what to think. Just glad it didn't end in another massacre.

    Edit: Looks like it's possibly just a tragic mistake.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 10-03-2013 at 03:26 PM.
    Here's the deal, I'm the best there is. I wake up in the morning and I urinate excellence. And nobody can hang with my stuff. I'm just a big hairy American winning machine.

    I'm very humble, too.

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