Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles "Secret Origins" Talkback (Spoilers)

[ClockStomper]

Image removed-Clockstomper


EPISODE THIRTY TWO


"Secret Origins" Part One


Story Editor: Lloyd Goldfine


Senior Supervising Director: Chuck Patton


Written by Eric Luke



The TMNT return to hear some revelations about their connection to the Utroms. Don't keep your opinions in your shell.

[Dr Kain]

Ok, they have officially killed Shredder for me. He is an alien now? WTF? Is that how it was in the comics?

[Duke]

Oh goodie. Triceratons came to Earth.

OK, I'm confused...

Now the Turtles have easy access from their lair and TCRI.

It's so weird seeing the Utroms as allies.

Baxter just refuses to die. And he's fallen far from Season 1.

I like Mikey's nervousness.

Return of Krang! I thought he wasn't supposed to appear in this series?

Heh, I like Mikey's reactions to the "movie," specifically to Krang and the crash.

Y'know, that's one of the few times we've actually heard someone puke instead of just seeing it.

Mikey has a really thick head.

ALL the Turtles have thick heads.

So...Shredder is really Krang!? Damn, I was hoping for Shredder to be some kind of god-like guy, not a Utrom...

Stockman better not still be working for Krang/Shredder.

[Behonkiss]

"Hey, we sort of satisfied you! Krang IS in the new cartoon! He's just Shredder!"

........Sigh.

[RZetlin]

It's an interesting take that the Shredder is an ruthless Utrom criminal.

Baxter seems to be taking orders from someone, but who? Can't be the Shredder because of the fight they had.

Mikey's antics can be a little annoying.

So are we going to be told why the Utroms took Splinter and not told the Turtles about it in the first place?

I thought it was a good episode for the Turtles' return to Earth.

Rating: 4.5/5

[Simpler Simon]

Well, this episode just goes to show how useless the last few really were. Pretty enjoyable with all the revelations going on, but I'm starting to get annoyed with Mikey's humour and the clunky dialouge.

- So...nobody remembered to count and make sure *all* the Triceratons and Federation troops were beamed back?

- I can understand the guardians not telling the Turtles what was going on (for fear of having their secret exposed), but now that we know Splinter's friends with the Utroms, was there any real reason they couldn't have just assured the Turtles Splinter would be all right somehow?

- The National Guard is outside the TCRI building...you'd think some Utrom lackey would realize this and tell Mortu before part 1 ended.

-Exactly how long has it been since Baxter's battle with the Turtles and his transformation into a...spider? And how would he know how to reprogram the virtual device (unless his mysterious employer is another fallen Utrom)

-I like how the show has to spell everything out for us. "So the Utroms are going to wait centuries to return home?" "Yes they are."

-If this wasnt a kiddie show, the Shredder Utrom would crushed the other Utrom instead of just tossing him into the bushes.

-They might as well have just come out and told us Shredder was the criminal Utrom.

-Okay Mikey, we know this is just a movie. Just...relax.

3.5 stars

[The Master Con]

It is possible that Baxter is still working for the Shredder, look at how many times in the Transformer series a traitor was welcomed back to his leader's side. It would explain why he knew who to crosswire their technology and how he was able to find a new body so quickly.

[AdamYJ]

I'm not crazy about the idea of Shredder being a rogue utrom. The traditional human Shredder is more my cup of tea. Otherwise, this episode was pretty good.

[Ian]

Yay, they called the Oots teleporter a transmat!! Another thing from the original is now "fixed", and the name change to Honeycutt's teleporter is now explained.

I'm not wild about Saki being an Utrom, but the story is being really well told (and obviously well thought out, with every fitting nicely into place), so I'll wait and see what happens. I really, really hope that Foot don't know about it, since that's the logical place to take the story.

Still, good episode, with lots of subplots brewing in the background. I wonder who Baxter's partner is, and when they made an alliance. Also, I like that they kept the "army appearing at the Oots' door aspect of the story"; all I can hope for now is that they carry real guns.

Oh, and now we know why Krang will never be on the new series.

[SirLemming]

Shredder's an Utrom? Sure, why not? I'm cool with it. They might as well do something interesting and unexpected, and this certainly explains all the stuff that happened in that last "Return to New York" episode. (Shredder talked about centuries ago, and he also survived decapitation... because only his stomach contains vitals!)

This was a good episode. I sensed a good new vibe from the Turtles in Space episodes, but I really did want them to get back to New York already. And now they have. And it's cool.

At first I thought it was stupid and repetitive when Mike tried to eat the rice balls, but then it was funny when Splinter said (not exact quote) "I know there is a lesson here... but I'm having too much fun watching this."


It is possible that Baxter is still working for the Shredder, look at how many times in the Transformer series a traitor was welcomed back to his leader's side. It would explain why he knew who to crosswire their technology and how he was able to find a new body so quickly.Yeah, it is interesting how both the Shredder Utrom and Baxter used crosswiring to mess up the good Utroms' technology. Coincidence?

[Andrew T. Hingson]

It's not Krang... but wouldn't be funny if that was his name?

They needed to come up with a way to keep Shredder from being killed off too soon. He was a very minor character in the original comics afterall. So I guess this works. I didn't like the idea at first but now that I've seen the evil red utrom and how evil he truely is... I'm starting to warm up to the idea.

The Ronin Michelangelo! I've got to write down that quote.

[ClockStomper]

Ok, they have officially killed Shredder for me. He is an alien now? WTF? Is that how it was in the comics?Not at all. He was human...normal aging and everything. Then a clone...then dead. And the theme was a generational cycle of revenge (Yoshi kill's Saki's brother, Saki grows up and kills Yoshi, Yoshi's pet is mutated and raises "sons", the Turtle "sons" kill Saki, Saki comes back and is killed again, The Elite seek revenge on the Turtles, and so on. It brings the point that fate may have made the mutagen accident happen because Yoshi had no one to carry on the cycle. The same goes for Shredder's ressurection.)

I'm not sure I like the changes, but I'll see what happens.

Interesting tidbit:
In the original time travel story, some of the japanese spectators were impressed by Raph's fighting, enough so to adopt it and start a clan about it. They named after the only thing Raph left behind...a footprint.

Although it's moot now that Shredder and the Foot exist when they meet the Turtles (Dogis had the Foot Symbol.)

[Shredder565]

There was a pretty decent time jump from the time the red alien Utrom is last seen, and Shredder first appears in ancient Japan. Therefore, we are left to assume that the alien is Shredder in disguise.

This would epxlain how he seems to have lived for centuries, and is easily able to walk off once his head is chopped off in Return to New York. However, it dosn't explain why he seems to have Super Human speed, as seen in one episode as the Utrom Walkers have not yet d emonstrated that ability. Nor, why he seems to have adopted the Japanese Culture as his own, despite having lived among humans for years. One would think that there would have been a touch of Utrom Technology found in his temple, but none was seen.

One would also think, that he'd be keeping better track of his enemies, and would have KNOWN for a fact that they where in NY, yet he required proof of an Utrom Walker discovered at the bottom of the ocean to prove that his enemies where in fact in the city..

However, I don't think we can assume the Utrom is Shredder just yet. At least I hope they don't go with that storyline. As others have suggested, I was reallly hoping Shredder would wind up as an immortal or something.

[Duke]

One would also think, that he'd be keeping better track of his enemies, and would have KNOWN for a fact that they where in NY, yet he required proof of an Utrom Walker discovered at the bottom of the ocean to prove that his enemies where in fact in the city..
That reminds me, remember when the Shredder's armor kinda glowed when it was near the old armor?

[Slane]

I was worried about Shredder being a Utrom, and now it's happened; it robs from the character's bodily abilities. Granted, so would the supernatural powers he would have if, as was conjectured, Shredder was a demon/god-like being, but at least then his advanced fighting abilities would be more closer to endowed than mechanical. (And this is coming from someone who has usually preferred the mind's abilities over the physical, i.e. a machine instead of a set of weights, Spider-man's polymerized web cartridges instead of the movie's natural webbing.)

As for pondering about why Laird and others working on the show said "No Krang" and yet we are essentially getting this character, keep in mind that this isn't technically Krang (maybe in character but not in origins) and that Laird wanted to ensure people would not consider the Shredder Utrom and the old cartoon Krang to be one in the same. (I’d still like a throwaway joke about some of the old cartoon characters; there are enough comic book arcs in which Bebop and Rocksteady could just be background characters.)



The glowing Utrom technology may be explained in this arc, perhaps showing how they forged the equipment for...something. Perhaps it was some of their work as they lived among the humans, as one would figure that, having gotten their exo-suits under control, the Utroms would take up the guise of humans and do something like sword forging (though they probably lived far enough away from civilization so that humans did not gather something amiss about their jerky, mechanical movements...maybe they pretended they were a colony of sickly humans living away from society).



In response to ClockStomper:

When did the turtles go back in time in the comics? Was it during this "Meet the Utroms" arc?



Somehow, I could see what you discussed as actually taking place in the show...although this is technically a VIRTUAL reality...

[ClockStomper]

It happened during some issue of the anthology book, I know that story was also the basis for Movie 3. They did several time travel things, so they all kind of blur in my mind.

In the comics, the only evil Utrom is one known as Doctor X (lame name, I know.) He was the basis for Krang. The fact that the evil pink Utrom wore a helmet makes me think he is Saki. Saki always DOES have his stomach bandaged (even in the game.)

But yeah, based on the mystic stuff he has around him, I thought he was an immortal or something. There was that strange jewel on Saki's helmet...

One interesting change from the comics in this episode is relating the mutagen to waste from the Transmat. In the comics, it's just described as wastes from expairaments. In later stories, we're led to believe the Utroms expairamented with DNA manipulation to become more humanoid, and thus the Turtles and Splinter became humanoids when doused with the mutagen.

The Triceraton escaping is important for later...in the comics, all 3 Triceratons got away, and there were no Federation soldiers. Wonder how he'll fair once his tank of Carbon Dioxide runs out....

[Jundaunted]

I'm sorry, but the show has officially jumped the shark with the revelation that Shredder is Krang (whatever the evil Utrom's name was). I would've preferred the whole immortal angle that was speculated at the end of Season 1. Even the whole clone thing in the comics doesn't seem half-bad compare to this. It just takes away from the character and the fact that the Turtles/Shredder rivalry all comes down to a simple alien mutiny is just ridiculous.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Now I don't think we should assume the evil Ultrom and Shredder are the same just yet as the Ultroms and Guardians also thought Shredder died, but if they knew he was an ultrom, they would know he survived

[Slane]

I'm sorry, but the show has officially jumped the shark with the revelation that Shredder is Krang (whatever the evil Utrom's name was). I would've preferred the whole immortal angle that was speculated at the end of Season 1. Even the whole clone thing in the comics doesn't seem half-bad compare to this. It just takes away from the character and the fact that the Turtles/Shredder rivalry all comes down to a simple alien mutiny is just ridiculous.
... :eek: HOW CAN A UTROM EXO-SKELETON HAVE THREE CLONES?! Maybe, just maybe, Shredder isn't a Utrom. There may be hope yet, but it would be such a stretch, such as the evil Utrom being the first Shredder, than one of the Foot (Saki) inherits the role because the evil Utrom is killed in battle. Then, perhaps Saki turns to mysticism (as has been established with the Foot Elite and the Foot Elementals) in order to attain the power his mentor-of-sorts had.

BTW, are the Guardians also Utroms? Again, if they were, it would take away from their physical abilities and endurance. I would prefer they were humans, as it would have expedited the Utroms' adaptation to Earth; the Guardians would be able to acquire supplies their jerky exo-suits could not easily acquire, thereby improving their suits.

Sigh...I'm too hypothetical tonight.

[Dr.Zar]

Now I don't think we should assume the evil Ultrom and Shredder are the same just yet as the Ultroms and Guardians also thought Shredder died, but if they knew he was an ultrom, they would know he survived
Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.

[Duke]

Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.
No we don't, we're rabid fans!

[Dr.Zar]

No we don't, we're rabid fans!
Tell me about it

MIRAGE fans are horrific to talk with when it comes to this...

[Ian]

Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.
No, we don't. It seems to answer most of our questions, but the whole theory still has some holes left in it. Along with those questions The Shredder 656 asked, there's some other stuff it leaves unanswered.

1) If he's an Utrom, and knows how to use technology (as shown by the ship's sabotage) much more advanced than human tech, why rely on Baxter Stockman for his tech needs?

1a) On a related note, how could he manage to mantain a first generation exoskeleton (a prototype, even) in excellent conditions throught the centuries? He may have the skill (which is doubtful, given point 1), but he didn't have the means till centuries later.

1b) Since Saki has not been shown as technosavvy, how could he develop Utrom grade artificial skin, without the means to do so?

2) Like someone mentioned on another site, why would the Guardians think The Shredder dead when Leo decapitated him? Do the Oots know that Saki and the Utrom are apparently the same person?

3) OK, the Utroms are fanatically clean, requiring "decontamination" after the barest human contact. Yet the Shredder shows no such skittishness. Sure, the Utroms could be paranoid, but I don't think so.

4) How would Saki partake in public human abilities, like dinners and such (a must for any successful businessman) without raising suspicion? Think of a man in a very traditional Japan, refusing to eat, or partake in their customs. He'd lose any chance at legitimacy. Also, we've seen him drink, right?

5) Shredder clones. Nuff said.

Given these points, I don't think we can write off Saki as an Utrom just yet, as it raises more questions than it answers. It may all be an elaborate red herring, and I have a feeling that it is. The obvious answer seems too easy somehow, and the pieces don't fit. Sure, the holes could be bad writing, but with the general quality of the series, I very much doubt it.

[Wounded_Dragon]

No, we don't. It seems to answer most of our questions, but the whole theory still has some holes left in it. Along with those questions The Shredder 656 asked, there's some other stuff it leaves unanswered.

1) If he's an Utrom, and knows how to use technology (as shown by the ship's sabotage) much more advanced than human tech, why rely on Baxter Stockman for his tech needs?

1a) On a related note, how could he manage to mantain a first generation exoskeleton (a prototype, even) in excellent conditions throught the centuries? He may have the skill (which is doubtful, given point 1), but he didn't have the means till centuries later.

1b) Since Saki has not been shown as technosavvy, how could he develop Utrom grade artificial skin, without the means to do so?

2) Like someone mentioned on another site, why would the Guardians think The Shredder dead when Leo decapitated him? Do the Oots know that Saki and the Utrom are apparently the same person?

3) OK, the Utroms are fanatically clean, requiring "decontamination" after the barest human contact. Yet the Shredder shows no such skittishness. Sure, the Utroms could be paranoid, but I don't think so.

4) How would Saki partake in public human abilities, like dinners and such (a must for any successful businessman) without raising suspicion? Think of a man in a very traditional Japan, refusing to eat, or partake in their customs. He'd lose any chance at legitimacy. Also, we've seen him drink, right?

5) Shredder clones. Nuff said.

Given these points, I don't think we can write off Saki as an Utrom just yet, as it raises more questions than it answers. It may all be an elaborate red herring, and I have a feeling that it is. The obvious answer seems too easy somehow, and the pieces don't fit. Sure, the holes could be bad writing, but with the general quality of the series, I very much doubt it.
1. While he may be proficient with Utrom technology, that does NOT mean he's proficient with human technology. Indeed, snobbery may have kept him from learning human tech early on when he could've mastered the basics.

1a. The technology is just that good..

1b. There's a reason his suit is full body. No one can see what's underneath. He may have employed body doubles for his dealings with humans. All this as a stopgap measure until he did develop the skin. Or had someone else develop it. Who says Baxter Stockman is the only human scientist he's taken in.

2. Perhaps losing the head destroys the older suits? Or they may thought this Shredder was human. We won't know until we know how their first Shredder confrontation ends. The Utroms seemed to think he was human

3. Old prejudices die hard? They seem to be a long lived race. If they are, old prejudices would be reinforced by them sticking together. Saki, living out amongst the humans, would have no reinforcement of his prejudices.

4. Sips and itty bitty bites. We have no idea how sophisticated his suit is.

5. It's assumed they are Shredder clones. No one who would know better actually said they were clones.

[Ian]

1. While he may be proficient with Utrom technology, that does NOT mean he's proficient with human technology. Indeed, snobbery may have kept him from learning human tech early on when he could've mastered the basics.
Except that he's not a snob. He's actually embraced human culture, and it wouldn't make sense for an up and coming businessman not to adapt to new technologies. Besides, him giving Stockman part of the East River exoskeleton for study implies that he does NOT understand Utrom technology.


1a. The technology is just that good.
Actually, from what we've seen, Utrom technology and materials aren't that much better or more durable than human products. I mean, we've seen the Sword of Tengu (made out of utrom metals) destroyed by a small explosion, an Utrom spaceship looking like any other ship would look like after a crash landing, and the ripped in half East River Exoskeleton. I don't think it's above gradual wear and tear.


1b. There's a reason his suit is full body. No one can see what's underneath. He may have employed body doubles for his dealings with humans. All this as a stopgap measure until he did develop the skin. Or had someone else develop it. Who says Baxter Stockman is the only human scientist he's taken in.
Actually, considering we don't know how the renegade Utrom first interacted with humans, we can't answer this either way.


3. Old prejudices die hard? They seem to be a long lived race. If they are, old prejudices would be reinforced by them sticking together. Saki, living out amongst the humans, would have no reinforcement of his prejudices.
Except that the Utroms dislike having to decontaminate. It seems to be not so much a custom as much as something necessary.


4. Sips and itty bitty bites. We have no idea how sophisticated his suit is.
Sure we do. It's controlled manually (as opposed to something like Honeycutt's mentawave helmet), has an independent power source, and is meant only for camouflage. The later models give them mobility akin to that of an average human, and above average strengh. Also, they have no mouths (logical, since there's no reason to have one), so they cannot eat. Add this to the facts I stated previously about the durability of their materials, and we know quite a bit. Also, I wasn't talking just about food. I was talking about stuff like public baths, and marriage and sex (stuff he can't avoid in feudal japan and still be a ruler/respected warlord.


5. It's assumed they are Shredder clones. No one who would know better actually said they were clones.
True. We'll have to wait and see, as we'll have to do with all the other questions, and to confirm whethever Saki's an Utrom or not.

[Anarky]

we're being led to think that the evil utrom and the shredder are the same.
however, there's still two parts left and lots more utrom history to learn. there could still be more sharp turns in the road that takes the shredders roots down another path.

still, it'd explain why he was able to pick up his dome after Leo seperated it from his body.

[AdamYJ]

I'm sorry, but the show has officially jumped the shark with the revelation that Shredder is Krang (whatever the evil Utrom's name was).
Don't give up on this show or this season just yet. I checked out the episode guide on Mirage's website and there seems like there's some good stuff coming up. They'll be revisiting some of the stuff from last season and we're going to get introduced to Shredder's right hand woman Kairi, Leatherhead and, surprisingly, Usagi Yojimbo in the coming weeks (I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi, it's easy to forget that he wasn't a TMNT character to begin with).

If he is a Utrom though, I saw this type of thing coming at the end of last season. When his head was lopped off, I was like: "He's dead. Wow. I'm going to miss him." Then when he picked up his head and carried it away, I distinctly remember thinking: "Aw crap. They're going to do something weird, aren't they?".

[Behonkiss]

Usagi Yojimbo?

Didn't see that coming.

[Sharklady]

> I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi... <

I'm certain they did- their legal depatment would insist.

And it's improbable Peter Laird would want to cut the bunny's creator out of the deal in any case; rumor has it that they get along pretty well. Sakai in particular has reason to want to continue the association. If it weren't for the TMNT, how much market would there ever have been for Usagi Yojimbo action figures?

[Jundaunted]

Don't give up on this show or this season just yet. I checked out the episode guide on Mirage's website and there seems like there's some good stuff coming up. They'll be revisiting some of the stuff from last season and we're going to get introduced to Shredder's right hand woman Kairi, Leatherhead and, surprisingly, Usagi Yojimbo in the coming weeks (I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi, it's easy to forget that he wasn't a TMNT character to begin with).

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show. I'm curious to know though, how they're gonna explain Karai's relationship with Shredder now that he's an alien (they were siblings in the original comics).

And just for the record, they did asked for Stan Sakai's permission to get Usagi in the new show.

[SirLemming]

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show.
I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.

[Duke]

I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.
I think people were expecting Shredder to be an immortal or something, not a red brain in an exo-suit.

[AdamYJ]

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.
The idea of an unstoppable ninja crimelord, who just happens to be merely human, isn't interesting!? You are disinterested in some of the coolest things.

[Simpler Simon]

The idea of an unstoppable ninja crimelord, who just happens to be merely human, isn't interesting!? You are disinterested in some of the coolest things.
I think he meant the Shredder from the original cartoon, not the Shredder from the original comics.

Considering that there are still two more chapters in the "Secret Origins" arc, I'm sure the creative team still has some surprises up their sleeve. One possibility that dawned on me was that this Shredder is indeed some kind of warrior from feudal japan, who had a family. The rogue Utrom, after stealing the exosuit, comes upon Shredder's family and kills them. Shredder vows revenge, kills the Utrom, and uses the metal from the exosuit to create his armour and the sword of tengu. Through some secret arts that he discovers later, he becomes immortal, and hunts the Utroms through the centuries.

[wrenchien]

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show. I'm curious to know though, how they're gonna explain Karai's relationship with Shredder now that he's an alien (they were siblings in the original comics).

And just for the record, they did asked for Stan Sakai's permission to get Usagi in the new show.

usagi, huh? hey, bring back irma. even if she gets her simple but cute garmentry totally realigned for the 00's, she was pretty funny. and could be funny again :)

leatherhead would be there, huh? he's that alligator dude from tmnt's original animated series, i assume?

all that remains is the frogs to appear next year, rocksteady and bebop to show their heads, and we're in. and i, for one, am glad there is no 'fifth turtle' in this series. it.. just throws the mythos off a lot to do that.

[Duke]

all that remains is the frogs to appear next year, rocksteady and bebop to show their heads, and we're in. and i, for one, am glad there is no 'fifth turtle' in this series. it.. just throws the mythos off a lot to do that.
I doubt the frogs, Rocksteady, or Bebop will appear in these new series.

And Irma kinda made a cameo in "Lone Raph & Cub."

[Toon Capone]

Some thoughts on the episode

Baxter now just being a head using robotic legs to move around reminds me of Mr. Freeze.

Am I the only one that thinks Michaelangelo is annoying in this series?

As for Shredder and the evil Utrom being one in same I guess they wanted to combine the mythos of Krang and Shredder into one. I'm glad a Krang like character is the series I just don't think Shredder should be it.

I loved Krang in the old series and if Peter Laid was going to use him or a character similar to him they should have made him seperate from Shredder or made them allies like in the old cartoon.

But who knows I just have to wait into the next two episodes.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

He's not Krang and he's not suppose to be.

I was hesitant to accept the idea of Saki being a rogue Utrom but now it seems to work pretty well.

As for eating and drinking... He probably has a way to consume food or at least filter it through the exoskeleton so that he doesn't give anyone a cause for alarm. He seemed to enjoy the tea well enough in the first episode so whose to say the Utrom doesn't just like Japanese foods?

Its just another way to potray the Shredder. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Ian]

I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.
1) It ruins most of the coolness of the final act of "Return to New York, pt. 3", reducing it to a robot's beheading (something that we've seen lots of times and has no "oomph" behind it).

2) The Shredder, as it stands now, is little more than Krang on steroids. And it's hard to take little talking brains seriously.

3) The concept of an immortal man who's also unkillable (which isn't redundant, since inmortal creatures can still be killed) is one little used, especially in american cartoons. It made the Shredder Special. Meanwhile, an evil Utrom has been done before (Krang).

4) An immortal Oroku Saki adds an element of poignancy to the Turtles/Utroms battle against The Shredder, since they'd be fighting a battle they can't ever win. With an Utrom Shredder, all you need is a sniper, some good armor piercing rounds (not even that, if he's not in his armor), and it's good-bye, Shredder.

5) If the questions asked about "Shredder as an Utrom" aren't answered satisfactorily, we end up with a half-assed concept.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

You forget, he's a master at the martial arts and he wouldn't be so easily defeated. He'd guard his um... "innards" very well.

Shredder never was a main player in the comics and they had to find a way for him to "die" and then comeback for the cartoon without anything that wouldn't be acceptable for childrens television.

I think we can trust Laird to make this worth watching still. If anyone knows how the turtles stories should be retold... its him.

[Aztec]

One quick correction: The whole "Dr. X" the Utrom is from the Image comics and they are NOT a part of the Mirage continuity.

As for Shredder being an evil Utrom, I'm not thrilled. Whether they decide to call him Krang or not is irrelevant because that's who he is. Well, I guess he's both Shredder and Krang combined. But, I'm willing to ride it out because the writer's really haven't let me down yet.

Although, there still is room for some cool storytelling if they choose to do it correctly. Check out this scenario:

Perhaps Oroku Saki was an evil Japanese warlord who teamed up with the rouge Utrom in order to conquer Japan. Eventually, the guardians and the Utroms are able to hunt down and kill Saki. But unknown to them the evil Utrom used his advanced technology to build a device that transferred Saki's mind to his own. Thus they are now combined as one. The Utrom now has Saki's martial arts ability (which he can excercise through his exoskeleton) as well as his cunning/ruthlessness, and Japanese culture. The Utrom then builds an exact replica of Saki's body for his exosuit; so that the fear of Oroku Saki spreads and he appears immortal and undefeatable.

Now, there's one important thing to bring up. What about the Shredder clones in "RTNY"? Well, they could be the Utrom's/Shredder's attempts at cloning Oroku Saki (he kept some of his DNA) in order to bring back to life his old conquering buddy.

Now that scenario I'd like to see.

[Dr Kain]

There is one thing that someone mentioned about the Guardians would've known if Shredder was dead if he was an Utrom, well, what if they don't know he is their evil one? Maybe they only think he is working with him. Anyway, I wanted them to go the Immortal route for Shredder, not some dumb little pink alien thing.

[ClockStomper]

There is one thing that someone mentioned about the Guardians would've known if Shredder was dead if he was an Utrom, well, what if they don't know he is their evil one? Maybe they only think he is working with him. Anyway, I wanted them to go the Immortal route for Shredder, not some dumb little pink alien thing.There's still holes in the "Shredder is a Utrom" theory, such as the clones and the Tokagawa thing...

[FidoMcCokefiend]

There is one thing that someone mentioned about the Guardians would've known if Shredder was dead if he was an Utrom, well, what if they don't know he is their evil one? Maybe they only think he is working with him. Anyway, I wanted them to go the Immortal route for Shredder, not some dumb little pink alien thing.
the evil utrom was red, not pink

[AdamYJ]

I think he meant the Shredder from the original cartoon, not the Shredder from the original comics.

Considering that there are still two more chapters in the "Secret Origins" arc, I'm sure the creative team still has some surprises up their sleeve. One possibility that dawned on me was that this Shredder is indeed some kind of warrior from feudal japan, who had a family. The rogue Utrom, after stealing the exosuit, comes upon Shredder's family and kills them. Shredder vows revenge, kills the Utrom, and uses the metal from the exosuit to create his armour and the sword of tengu. Through some secret arts that he discovers later, he becomes immortal, and hunts the Utroms through the centuries.
Sometimes I forget how much the old cartoon series has impacted the people around here. So you know, I've actually never read the original comics (except the first issue which is posted online somewhere). I'm not much for bloody, violent comics, so my knowledge of them mainly comes second-hand. My view of the Turtles comes from a combination of the old cartoon, the Archie comic and the first couple of movies. I admit that the movies hold more importance lately because I've seen them more often and more recently. It's that first movie that gave me the idea of how the Shredder should be. I'm not too jazzed about this immortal idea you guys have, either. I would have preferred he was just regular, mortal, nearly unbeatable Shredder. Guess it's too late for that, though.

I agree though, let's watch the rest of the story first.

[SirLemming]

Perhaps Oroku Saki was an evil Japanese warlord who teamed up with the rouge Utrom in order to conquer Japan. Eventually, the guardians and the Utroms are able to hunt down and kill Saki. But unknown to them the evil Utrom used his advanced technology to build a device that transferred Saki's mind to his own. Thus they are now combined as one. The Utrom now has Saki's martial arts ability (which he can excercise through his exoskeleton) as well as his cunning/ruthlessness, and Japanese culture. The Utrom then builds an exact replica of Saki's body for his exosuit; so that the fear of Oroku Saki spreads and he appears immortal and undefeatable.

Now, there's one important thing to bring up. What about the Shredder clones in "RTNY"? Well, they could be the Utrom's/Shredder's attempts at cloning Oroku Saki (he kept some of his DNA) in order to bring back to life his old conquering buddy.

Now that scenario I'd like to see.
Perhaps Oroku Saki's body, or the 4th and best clone of it, was actually used in some way by the evil Utrom instead of just robotics. Maybe he figured out that the human brain and nervous system works better and more natrually than any robotic system would, and he somehow wired it up for use.

So basically, anything could happen.

[StrangerAtaru]

You know, considering how killing is still a bit taboo for "kids TV", it does make a bit of sense to me for the idea of making Shredder a rouge Utrom. Sure it was a bit shocking and the next few episodes could change a few things, but I'm up for a bit of change. (even if I can't help but snicker that Shredder is a "samurai Krang")

[Jundaunted]

And Irma kinda made a cameo in "Lone Raph & Cub."
Really? Which scene? I must've missed it.

[Duke]

Really? Which scene? I must've missed it.
The little kid's mother bears an uncanny resemblence to Irma.

[RAINMAN]

I`m not big on immortal char but I rather shad head be one then a rouge talking brain. For all that just put krang in the series. And if he is a utlom, then why did he killed splinter`s human master? I don`t care what anyone said A TMNT series is not the same whitout the original beavis&butthead(Bebop&rockteady). If the JL show can put gigantor in their cannon series, then this TMNT shows can do the same.

[Duke]

And if he is a utlom, then why did he killed splinter`s human master?
Shredder thought Yoshi was working for his enemies, then get annoyed by him and killed him.

[Fone Bone]

Put me in with the camp that believes Shredder isn't a Utrom. It just seems too obvious and I think Part 1 was a huge misdirect. Granted, it wouldn't be the first time my faith in a TV show would be misplaced, but I'm still gonna take a wait-and-see approach. Besides, even if he were a Utrom it's still possible they could pull it off in a cool manner.

[Anarky]

here's a wild concept: let's wait til all 3 episodes have aired

all we know for now is they're "suggesting" the renegade Utrom and Shredder are the same.

We know there's a connection. Chances are most of you are chasing a red herring.

[Duke]

here's a wild concept: let's wait til all 3 episodes have aired

all we know for now is they're "suggesting" the renegade Utrom and Shredder are the same.

We know there's a connection. Chances are most of you are chasing a red herring.
And Peter Laird and the staff are laughing at us right now.

[RockItShipper]

Evil Utrom lands in the US and secures a Gaijin/Westerner suit from some drunk. Utrom in drunk-wear gets hired to train an army in Japan, but ends up presuming to know the value of Japanese culture better than the Japanese themselves.

[RAINMAN]

I thougth animes were the ones that screws whit your mind, now it looks like toon are doing it too. TT not telling anyone who robin really is, Now TMNT whit shrehead.

[Ian]

Evil Utrom lands in the US and secures a Gaijin/Westerner suit from some drunk. Utrom in drunk-wear gets hired to train an army in Japan, but ends up presuming to know the value of Japanese culture better than the Japanese themselves.
That's it! Utrom=Tom Cruise! Brilliant!!

Or wait! Maybe the Utrom died, and Oroku Saki is the REAL Tom Cruise.

Maybe Hun is Nicole in disguise!

[Jundaunted]

The little kid's mother bears an uncanny resemblence to Irma.
Uhhh, they don't bear a resemblance to each other at all. Are you suggesting that all women that wear glasses look the same? :rolleyes:

[Duke]

Uhhh, they don't bear a resemblance to each other at all. Are you suggesting that all women that wear glasses look the same? :rolleyes:
They wear glasses, are both reporters, have the same hair color, very similar hair styles, and have a similar height.

[ClockStomper]

I thougth animes were the ones that screws whit your mind, now it looks like toon are doing it too. TT not telling anyone who robin really is, Now TMNT whit shrehead.
Do you type that way on purpose? I'm not being mean, I'm honestly asking. Because your handle is RAINMAN, I'm wondering if it might be intentional as a joke.

[Sharklady]

> That's it! Utrom=Tom Cruise! Brilliant!!
Or wait! Maybe the Utrom died, and Oroku Saki is the REAL Tom Cruise. <
Maybe Hun is Nicole in disguise! <

Heck of a disguise! Nobody can accuse Big Bad of coming up with unoriginal plot twists.


> The little kid's mother bears an uncanny resemblence to Irma.

Uhhh, they don't bear a resemblance to each other at all. Are you suggesting that all women that wear glasses look the same?

They wear glasses, are both reporters, have the same hair color, very similar hair styles, and have a similar height. <

Perhaps somebody could post some screen-grabs, so we could see for ourselves.

[Shredder565]

Oh, for anyone who wants to know h ow the Mike throw up sounds are recorderd, here's the info straight from the source :)

>>Unfortunately, we're still not supposed to disclose plot points, but I am glad to hear you're digging the space/virtual reality odyssey. The puke stuff is established by me drinking sour milk mixed with grapefruit juice and doing 50 crunches. Then we wait to see what materializes. Well, no, not really. That's just me making the rudest sounds I can. Mike S. is not my double for this stuff.>>

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Does anyone think Shredder might not be the rogue ultrom since the hints they gave were too obvious?

[Anarky]

Does anyone think Shredder might not be the rogue ultrom since the hints they gave were too obvious?my point exactly
red utrom= red herring
there's still 2 parts left. The Shredder origin still has many twists and turns ahead. let's see what unfolds...and then express our disgust later:D.

[Anarky]

Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.
where can we see these revealing model sheets
i only saw the one at the tmnt site (the turn model sheets)
saw no info about utroms

[Tash]

what about the video game profile?

[Skeeter]

what about the video game profile?
What about it?

-Skeeter

[Ian]

Even with the model sheets (which I really need the link to, btw; anyone?), it's not inconcievable that it may all be misdirection. It wouldn't be the first time stuff like this has happened: The story in all adaptations of the second X-Men movie was changed so as not to spoil Jean's death, and there have been comic books with fake previews (even fake covers, which would be the same as fake concept art) made to throw people of the track. I'm not saying that's the case here, just that it's a possibility.

[ClockStomper]

what about the video game profile?
I don't remember pictures being provided, all we have is hearsay on that.

[Duke]

By video game profile, I'm assuming you mean the Database, where tons of model sheet pictures are stored in the console games.

[SirLemming]

Whoa, this thread has gone a whole week! And now it's almost time to find out what happens next!