Pets

[Calhoun07]

If the cat people get to have their thread, we MUST have one for the best pets to have EVER...DOGS! Dogs rule, cats drool! So start telling your dog stories, happy and sad! I grew up with dogs, and at one point we had 15 at once, so I will share some as the thread continues! So all the dog lovers of the boards, let's hear about it all!

[Scythemantis]

Ok,i`m not insulting dogs or anything,but..they are NOT the "best pets to have".I can name hundreds of species of mammals (from pigs and rats to marsupials and even sub-primates like bush babies) superior to canines in intelligence, cleanliness, obedience, affection, trainability, and even how easy they are to take care of.I dont want to upset anyone,but it`s just fact. I`m not saying I hate dogs...I`ve had one myself that I liked quite a bit...however I like ferrets,my gf has one,and even she knows that they smell terrible and cost hundreds to keep alive. Dogs,to me,are among the worst choices for a pet.Only if you REALLY,REEEEALLY love the way they LOOK should you get one,because they really dont do anything that other animals havent perfected...

Far too many people,who have had very little contact with animals,are under the impression that dogs are the only truly domesticated pets,when many little-known and sometimes even hated animals (like rodents) are clean,quiet,friendly and quite smart.Rats beat dogs AND cats in brainpower and Pigs are second only to human beings...being almost tied with apes.

[Nightflower]

Don't dogs drool a lot more than cats do? :p

[Dante Bunny]

BourgeoisBuffoon
HEY! CATS RULE! They're clearly superior to dogs.



Nightflower
Don't dogs drool a lot more than cats do?


I agree with Nightflower and BourgeoisBuffoon (or I like to call him Double B), I like cats! My cousin who got a cat who is so cute! :D Dogs are nice too.

[Samhaine]

Originally posted by Nightflower
Don't dogs drool a lot more than cats do? :p
I've had my dog for almost 10 years now. She's drooled a few times, but that was while in a car. For the first half of her life she was deathly afraid of riding in a car.

Everytime I come home from school my dog comes up to me and grabs my pantlegs. See, she's a poodle/terrier/opsha-lopsha mix, and she's only about a foot or two tall. Man, she's cute. But lazy. She lays around all day, only getting up to eat or bark to let us know she needs to be let outside for potty time. I guess that's why she never sleeps.

[Failure]

Oh come on now Pigs, rats, marsupials better than dogs? If intelligence were the only factor we might as well have dolphins for pets. If cleanliness were the only factor we might as well go back to the pet rock days. If trainability were the only factor, well I dunno, dogs are pretty darn trainable, but anyway back to my point. i think most of us are aware that dogs are not the only "truly domesticated" animals. You start out by saying dogs are not the best pets to have then go on naming other animals you consider to be better than dogs. Contrary to what you might think, no animal has "perfected" anything. All this comes down to personal opinion. For some people dogs ARE the best pets for them. I really dont see any point of arguing over what's the best, but if we must.

(simplistic arguments, dont poke holes, I'm sure there are plenty)

rats v. dogs, u can have camraderie with a dog, can u go for runs with rats or let them sleep on your bed? you'd probably kill the poor thing.

pigs, do you really want a pet that lives in its own filth?

marsupials, i dont know about them much, but they're rare if non-existent in the US, so I'd figure they'd cost a bunch to care for.

primates, they are a handful. you might as well have a kid or something.

Now, I dont want to get into a debate over which animals are better, because well, that's just dumb. but SC I dont think you're giving dogs a fair shake. I also think you're wrong in saying dogs are among the worst choice for a pet. Like I said before, they might be the worst choice in your mind, but for a lot of people they're great. Those who like them, get em, otherwise they dont. It's pretty plain and simple.

[Scythemantis]

I said a bajillion times I dont dislike dogs and would own one myself...just that they are a handful and intelligence/cleanliness/ect are the primary reasons most people *I* know have them.

Pigs are clean though...they dont live in their own filth.In nature a pig walks almost half a mile from it`s home just to urinate.They only roll in mud to cool off much like other large mammals. And for the record,you can take a rat outside.They`ll follow you everywhere or stay on your shoulder (no,they wont pee on you.Theylle jump down to do so and they do know better than to go under your feet)

Its just that in my area we have a large number of people who dont understand how to care for an animal and wind up getting rid of their dogs for dumb reasons like the space they take up or their occassional digging.They usually get the dog before they even try to learn how to provide an adequete diet and environment.

[Joe Tully]

Originally posted by Failure



marsupials, i dont know about them much, but they're rare if non-existent in the US, so I'd figure they'd cost a bunch to care for.



Ah! The opossum is the only North American marsupial. Fairly plentiful in the south and Northeast IIRC. I've seen a few myself, they're just nocturnal so you usually don't see them during daytime.

I recently came up with the idea of someday having a monotreme farm. Monotremes are the few mammals that lay eggs. I'm gonna have this huge amount of land with platupii and echidnas roaming all over the place, so when I want I can just go pick one up and pet it. And there once was a kind of echidna that was as big as a sheep, so once I invent "Jurassic Park" type technology, I'm adding them to the farm too.

Monotreme lovers of the world unite! heh heh.

-Joe "Biology major currently taking Mammalogy and it shows" Tully

[Maxie Zeus]

OK, I pulled these posts out of the "Dog Lovers" thread. There's plenty of room for talking about the merits of pets, but I think it's bad form to do so in a thread devoted to one kind of pet. How about we keep the dog stories to one thread, the cat stories to another, and the comparisons someplace else?

[Failure]

Originally posted by Sting chameleon
[B]I said a bajillion times I dont dislike dogs and would own one myself...just that they are a handful and intelligence/cleanliness/ect are the primary reasons most people *I* know have them.

Pigs are clean though...they dont live in their own filth.In nature a pig walks almost half a mile from it`s home just to urinate.They only roll in mud to cool off much like other large mammals. And for the record,you can take a rat outside.They`ll follow you everywhere or stay on your shoulder (no,they wont pee on you.Theylle jump down to do so and they do know better than to go under your feet)

Its just that in my area we have a large number of people who dont understand how to care for an animal and wind up getting rid of their dogs for dumb reasons like the space they take up or their occassional digging.They usually get the dog before they even try to learn how to provide an adequete diet and environment.[B]

I dont think I accused you of disliking dogs, just that I didnt think u were giving them a fair shake. You have to admit, dogs are pretty smart though, they may be no pigs, but they are intelligent animals. All that said I'll agree with you in that dogs are a handful.

The only pigs I've seen are pigs in a farm. Perhaps I'm biased. By no means am I an expert so thanks for the info.

People getting rid of pets is a problem. I think people do underestimate how much effort goes into taking care of a dog, but that goes for a lot of animals. The people who get rid of dogs and cats, I dont think they'd do much better with a rat or pig. Some animals are easier to take care of, but some people are just flat out irresponsible.

[Joker85]

Sting chameleon, how can you say dogs aren't affectionate?? It has been my experience that dogs are the MOST affectionate pet to have, as opposed to cats, pigs and rats. I have NEVER seen a rat that looked affectionate...

[Scythemantis]

have you ever had/seen an actual pet rat then,joker? Cuz the ones I know smother you in extremely tiny kisses (much like a miniature dog) and mope around when you arent there to play with them :)

I know dogs are affectionate,but ever met a sugar glider? So attached to their owners they can actually die of depression within hours of being seperated.Ive never seen one awake though :P

[DR. BELCH]

Nightflower:
Don't dogs drool a lot more than cats do?
Depending on the breed. Beagles aren't big droolers; neither are poodles. Labs, however, tend to sit and let long white thick ropes of drool hang from their mouths. Blossom (see "Dog Lovers" thread) was a drooler...although that wasn't the worst part. The grossest thing was when one of her children would lick the stuff off her muzzle.... :yuk:

Now I know there's at least one poster--Sharklady--who owns a snake...and I've heard rats only relieve themselves uninhibitedly when nervous (so don't carry one on your shoulder into a crowded bar or TV lounge or whatnot, esp. if you've got a clean shirt on).
My brother kept hamsters briefly. One got depressed, apparantly, climbed out of its cage, and pulled a Brody off the top of the bookshelf. My ex also owned hamsters and told me of the time her brother got mad at her, took one, and attempted to nuke it in the microwave. She rescued it and shoved it into the freezer. Amazingly, it survived.... :eek:
How about monkeys? I've heard they tend to throw their feces...not my idea of good pet behavior. :p

[Scythemantis]

By "sub" primates I was reffering to the lemures and more primitive species...not quite monkeys,and a lot less dirty.Monkeys throw whatever is on hand that they can lift,so feces,toys,food and whatever else they get their hands on will soon be flying across the room at you.Bush babies and tarsiers are great though if raised properly from babies...

Now that this is a thread on pets in general I can cut loose! I used to keep madagascar hissing cockroaches and plan on getting some other exotic roach species...(like rats,theyre very misunderstood...of the thousands of roach species only a handful are considered pests and all are quite sanitary,preffering fresh fruits and vegetables to the garbage and filth most people THINK they like) I always wanted giant cave roaches...my GF has two of them and a death`s head cockroach! Centipedes look neat too...

Someday I want an armadillo or a bat (there are plenty of species that can be kept as pets with the right permit)

[Failure]

Eck roaches. Misunderstood or not, I could never have any kind of insect/beetle/archnoid as a pet.

[BWDK]

I got a fat guinea pig named Dotty and it's rotten spoiled :D

[Scythemantis]

I still fail to see how people can find insects unpleasant...theyre clean,harmless and their physical design is a work of art...all those intricate joints and armor plates are like a sculpture or a mosaic...most of them are smooth and metallic/plasticy...not all hairy and warty on close-up like those scary photos of flies and fleas... I think most cockroaches are beautiful :) They look like tiny humans in cloaks or trench coats! My gf dressed hers up as a bride and groom (seriously...she made the costumes herself) for a halloween pet costume contest and won second place...the next week they even talked about them on the radio and newspaper! (the first prize winner was a dog,like it is EVERY year...)

I really want some of those tropical fruit-eating beetles that come in bright,BRIGHT metallic green,gold or turqoise.I hear theyre extremely hardy and one species actually lives up to 30 years... tiny+quiet+pretty+unusual+easy to care for=perfect animal for me :)

I once wanted a slow loris,but I hear they leave a continuous trail of urine everywhere they go.

[Failure]

I'll admit I think a lot of insects look cool. But I just cant bring myself to touch them, whether they are hairy or smooth or shiny or etc. Except maybe ants and that's only like one or two at a time. It's definitely an irrational fear and it's kind of annoying at times.

[Failure]

I've always wanted a squirrel as a pet. They're cool.

[Calhoun07]

in response to Failure's last two posts....


I can't stand insects at all. I think the most stomach turning experience I had in grade school was in the 6th grade when I had to put together an insect collection. I had to pin them to a piece of cardboard, and that was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, and my family MADE me do it! Even today, I don't think I could do that again!

And a squirrel for a pet? I don't think I'd ever want to own a rodent for a pet. Then again, I really don't see an appeal in owning rodents, but there are people who love hampsters, so I guess why not a squirrel too?

[Scythemantis]

Calhoun: read my description of why rats are good pets...squirrels are similar but a little more wild. Hamsters,by the way,are NOTHING like rodents in general...theyre primitive,emotionless,never bond to their owners and have such a short memory/attention span that they can be entertained by the same repetitive action (wheel) almost indefinately.

Rats are the exact opposite.Not something you just leave in a cage to look at and feed every day...they need lots (LOTS) of playtime outside,a wide variety of toys (the more complicated,the better) and a rich healthy diet of fruits,vegetables,meats and bread.Actually,the diet of a rat is the same as a human`s...theyre one of the only mammals that can safely eat chocolate (it`s good for their resperatory system) and they prefer things cooked. Corn,seed or pellet food will actually kill them.

...Anyway,about insect collections...I dont have one and dont want one,but for different reasons...insects do (despite most people`s beliefs) posses self-awareness and a certain capacity for pain,fear and discomfort,so a bunch of tiny insects on pins is about the same to me as a bunch of dogs,cats or even humans impaled on giant iron spikes...

[Failure]

Originally posted by calhoun07
in response to Failure's last two posts....


I can't stand insects at all. I think the most stomach turning experience I had in grade school was in the 6th grade when I had to put together an insect collection. I had to pin them to a piece of cardboard, and that was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, and my family MADE me do it! Even today, I don't think I could do that again!

And a squirrel for a pet? I don't think I'd ever want to own a rodent for a pet. Then again, I really don't see an appeal in owning rodents, but there are people who love hampsters, so I guess why not a squirrel too?

Ugh, luckily we didnt have to do any pin the insects projects. I dont think I could've done that. I feel your pain.

Actually squirrels would probably make bad pets, but I see them climbing trees, jumping on poles, and chewing nuts all the time. They're cute little critters.

[Calhoun07]

Who said insects don't feel or have self awareness? I think that is a pretty ignorant view. And how do people come to claim to know these things?

Another thing I've always wondered is how people have come to claim that dogs don't see color, but just in black and white. That has always struck me as a ridiculous statement.

And I'm not knocking various rodents for pets, just that I wouldn't want one.

[Scythemantis]

I know noones knockin nut`n :P

...I`m reffering to the people where I live.Almost EVERYONE I meet insists that insects are unfeeling or even that they have no brains or body organs to speak of! "Just full of slime" according to them.They also say insects arent animals but when I ask them what else they think they are, they draw a blank :rolleyes:

I think they know dogs can`t see color because of their eye structure,but I forget what it is exactly.

Since I enjoy ranting endlessly about animals,heres a page of my site of weird animal trivia:
http://www.geocities.com/scythemantis/facts1.html

[Calhoun07]

Well, there is quite a large number of people who seem to think insects don't have any kind of nervous system or any way to feel anything. I think it's an ignorant view, but then again, people used to think that the Earth was the center of the universe. Hewmons can be quite foolish at times.

[Maxie Zeus]

It is pretty clear from their avoidance behavior that insects feel pain. But what is the evidence that insects possess "self-awareness"? Such is usually held to involve the ability to frame thoughts about oneself. What evidence is there that an insect is able to frame the concept of "myself"?

[Calhoun07]

what is the evidence that humans can do this?

[Scythemantis]

Self-awareness is simply knowing you exist.Anything with a brain must "know" it exists if it is to know that it needs to eat,hunt,rest ect. (and before ya say these are built in instincts...most animals are taught these things by their parents or through trial and error...even scorpions teach their young to kill,much like cats)

[Joe Tully]

Originally posted by calhoun07
what is the evidence that humans can do this?

The ability to speak, except for in the cases of some of the mentally ill, it is clear that most people are able to understand the idea that they are an individual out of many. But of course insects can't speak so the question remains open for them...

I'm leaving the rest of this to the Philosophy prof.

[Calhoun07]

I don't think that self awareness can be singled out to just the ability to speak. I think that animals possess a self awareness, and even have a sense of death and mourning and their place in this world in light of such topics that philosophers feel humans have a corner on. I've seen too many examples of animals possessing an obvious self awareness by their very actions. Just because they can't utter the words, "I think therefore I am" doesn't mean they don't possess a self awareness. And to say insects don't possess one because we can't register their emotions or what have you...well, that's preposterous.

In the end, we are all alike in more ways than we think. We are all creatures of habit. And I think all of God's creatures have an inborn sense of something bigger, and I think that makes them pretty self aware.

[Maxie Zeus]

A few preliminary points:

1. The ability to talk, and the ability to use the personal pronoun, may be sufficient to show that a person is self-aware, but that doesn't mean that only those who can talk are self-aware. It may be that there are species that cannot communicate that are still self-aware.

2. A creature may lack self-awareness, and yet it might still be wrong to harm it. I just want to be clear that someone who denies that insects (or other animals) are not self-aware need not think that it is alright to do horrible things to them. So the ethical issue should be off the table.

I asked about self-awareness not because I have an axe to grind, but because sting chameleon made a very strong claim, that "insects do (despite most people`s beliefs) posses self-awareness." I'm mostly curious about the reasons behind this assertion. The reply comes back:


Self-awareness is simply knowing you exist.Anything with a brain must "know" it exists if it is to know that it needs to eat,hunt,rest ect. (and before ya say these are built in instincts...most animals are taught these things by their parents or through trial and error...even scorpions teach their young to kill,much like cats)

I don't find this convincing. First, the ability to "sense" or "hunt" does not presuppose any kind of awareness. A laser-guided bomb or a cruise missile homing in on a target does its job without "knowing" anything or being aware of itself or its environment; these are simply very complicated machines that are able to interact successfully with the environment, and self-awareness need not be seen at work in them to understand how they work. It certainly remains a possibility that a housefly works on the same principle.

Second, the "teaching" aspect is not definitive. Again, it is possible to "teach" a computer to do new tasks by programming it, although the computer itself is not aware of itself. Evolution may similarly have favored species that are built to engage in complicated interactions with each other. That is, scorpions (for instance) may be built in such a way that a young scorpion will imitate the behavior of another scorpion, and the old scorpion built in such a way that it will perform certain actions (which display survival skills) in the presence of young scorpions. Neither may be aware of itself as an autonomous unit, in the way that the complicated machines that interact in a factory are able to interact with each other without possessing self-awareness.

Two additional points: First, these observations do not establish that insects (for example) do NOT have self-awareness, only that it may be possible to explain their behavior without adverting to "self-awareness." You don't need to talk about "gnomes" in the clockwork to explain why a clock keeps time; in the same way, you may not need to talk about "self-awareness" to explain why certain animals survive and thrive. Second, it takes nothing away from the marvel that is an insect to suspect that it lacks self-awareness; on the contrary, it makes it even more remarkable and worthy of awe.

[Joe Tully]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I don't think that self awareness can be singled out to just the ability to speak. I think that animals possess a self awareness, and even have a sense of death and mourning and their place in this world in light of such topics that philosophers feel humans have a corner on. I've seen too many examples of animals possessing an obvious self awareness by their very actions. Just because they can't utter the words, "I think therefore I am" doesn't mean they don't possess a self awareness. And to say insects don't possess one because we can't register their emotions or what have you...well, that's preposterous.


I agree. I was saying, we know humans have self-awareness because it is clear by the way in which we refer to ourselves in speech. But, like you and Maxie say, just because animals cannot speak doesn't mean they are not self-aware.

To summarize:

Ability to speak generally = ability to convey sense of self-awareness

No ability to speak = you need to find another way to tell if they are self-aware. And in the case of something like insects, that may be hard to do.

[Scythemantis]

I consider self-awareness anything above that of a jellyfish...I think the knowledge of your own existence (not really your individuality,but just knowing you exist) doesnt really require as much brainpower as most humans think,..it seems so simple...