KP....beyond 65? Yes!

[BigKPFan76]

Ok, Im new here but not new to forums. I just want to get your guys opinion on one of, I think, the most important issues of our current age. The issue of Disney's 65 ep policy. I personally think that it should be done away with. For one thing it stiffles creativity. For another, it is just plain stupid. I mean how can you really develop a series in just 65 episodes? I dont think you can. How come other networks dont have this policy? They dont because they know that a show deserves to go on as long as people enjoy watching it. Kim is one of the best animated Disney shows currently on TV and it has a huge fanbase out there. A show should be judged by it's popularity, not by how many eps have been made of it.
However, I think that perhaps, and just perhaps, that the winds of change are blowing hard at Disney......why do I think that? Well, Disney has spent a lot of time and money into promoting KP and the KP merchandise. I havent seen (and feel free to correct me if Im wrong) this much merchandise of a single show for Disney ever! I mean sure you have some Lizzie Mcguire items for sale and some Proud Family items for sale, but not as much as there is for KP. And it's selling big! At my local Walmart, they were sold out of every KP item within 2 days of being placed on the shelf. Thats pretty fast! Just think about all the items for sale out there: books, pencils, paper, pens, bed sheets, comforters, pillows, toys,.....the list goes on and on, and there's even more to come! And you couple that with viewer protests (of which I am one) and you know that there are a lot of fans who want it to keep going. Because there are so many new ideas to explore, we have only scratched the surface with season I and II. In addition, I have heard that season III will contain at least 20 new eps. Now according to TVTome's website, the list ends at 54 so far. With 20 new eps in season III that will push the total to 74. Maybe Im being overly optimistic here, but there are many more clues that KP may go beyond 65. I hope that KP will continue long enough for us to really explore what potental this series really has to offer and for other viewers to discover how really cool KP is. :) Thoughts?

[loyalheart]

i was told it's only going to 65. but things could change and let's hope it does (for us kp fans)


OT: bigkpfan are you the same one from christy-romano.com?

[BigKPFan76]

i was told it's only going to 65. but things could change and let's hope it does (for us kp fans)


OT: bigkpfan are you the same one from christy-romano.com?

Yep thats me! :D I wanted to come over here and see what was happening in toonzone land. :) It's pretty cool here, I think I will stay! (if you guys will have me..lol. ;) ) But I hope that Disney will see the light in this 'sitch. There are so many good ideas yet to be explored with KP....all the nets fan-fiction is a prime example of that. Not everyone who writes fanfic is a professional writer and some of it IMO, could conceivably be used for an episode or 2. We have some good ideas floating around out there.....surely the people at Disney are paying attention. I hope.

[Tobias]

As long as a show can stay creative, it should be able to go past 65 eps. Here's hoping KP and Lilo & Stitch (Which is getting better as it goes along) can break this stupid policy.

[tucsoncoyote]

As long as a show can stay creative, it should be able to go past 65 eps. Here's hoping KP and Lilo & Stitch (Which is getting better as it goes along) can break this stupid policy.

Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Tobias, it's interesting that to see that both Kim Possible and Lilo and Stitch are getting better as they go aloing but they are doing so from different standpoints...and it's no wonder that Disney's 65 Episode policy is really a Lame Duck issue when you think about it..

Kim Possible when it was initially shown in teaser form in January 2002, for it's premiere some 6 months later in June 2002, was at first a bit of a skepticism for Disney, it was thought to be some sort of spin off or spoof of another accquired show that was running at the time that ABC Family had (Namely Totally spies). But Kim was a bit of a Trend setter in it's own right as it was more like a humorous poke at the Old 1960's Get Smart Era..with a bit of a Role Reversal..

but as time went on Disney made sure they had with this show a decent idea, the problem they had were that the creators of the show (who we shall calll "Bob" and "Mark") didn't like the way Disney Initially handled Kim Possible with it's first season run..(The First 21 Episodes, of which at least 15 were what I call "Classic" Episodes.)

so when July 2003 Rolled around, The Team of "Bob and Mark" probably said, "Hey the idea's good, but let's make it Better...so they replaced the producer (Chris Bailey) with yet another Team (Namely David Block and Steve Loeter (Both of which have had experience on writing/Producing/Directing other Popular Disney shows, Block had some experience with Darkwing Duck, and of course Loeter, with two previous shows, Namely Buzz Light Year of Star Command and the Legend of Tarzan..Add to that a Number of rather good writers including writers from other Popular Shows Like :narf: Pinky and the Brain:brain: and Road Rovers, Transformers and the other popular kid shows and you have yourself one rather Hard ticket to get rid of!

as for Lilo and Stitch it too has been getting better, and again I emphasize a lot of a Show's success not only comes from the animation but also the writing. and believe me this series as well has been going as well (so it would be no surprise that Lilo and Stitch may be exteneded beyond the 65 Episode limit as well)

but the real trick is going to be the fact that even writers start to run short of ideas.. that's where the fan base comes in..(if you do a lot of web browsing Tobias, you definitely can find fan bases that could support the writers with ideas for years on end.. it's just the matter of having a creative mind..(and believe me there are a lot of fans who have very creative minds..)

(after all wasn't it that one Tiny Toon Adventures Episode that ran was written by three Girls in Virginia and submitted to Spielberg's Desk just to show that even the fans could cook up some very well written plots..)

in short, if you can keep it fresh, the idea is golden, and both Kim Possible and Lilo and Stitch could just do that and have both series Rivaling The Simpsons for Airplay..

The problem is that Eisner has had since 1993 (Some 10 years ago) his "65 Episode" Policy which states when a series hits 65 Complete Half hour episodes, the show is done, and no further shows will be produced..

the Thing is that Eisner's Folly in that idea are these two shows, are like fine wines, they just keep getting better with time, and in fact considering that Lilo and Stitch could easily run for well over 100 episodes as well as Kim Possible, someone is going to have to make these two shows Exceptions to the 65 Episode policy that Was set up 10 years ago. Either that or Disney faces something they don't want to see...

Namely Loss of viewership...

if Disney were to remove the 65 Episode policy and go back to a "As long as the idea is good" Policy they could in theory be at the peak of their game, and could turn their bad publicity into sort of a Publicity coup d'etat. and make Disney again popular, the problem though isn't the Animators or the writers here, it's Eisner..

Eisner's has been the Captain of Disney for 20 years, and in the last 7 He's made some rather what I deem, "Questionable" accquisitions for the company including the "Go dot Com" Fiasco, the Accquisition of ABC Broadcasting and of course the Famous Fox Family Buyout and Termination of their Number 1 and 2 rated shows for half baked fare...

if Eisner sticks to his "65 Episode policy", this will probably show without a shadow of a doubt to both the viewers and the investors (both small and Large) that Eisner's "not firing on all cylinders" and it's those Large Investors that could call for Eisner's Resignation and not the fact that it's been those previous accquisitions..

in short, you don't kill the geese that lay the "Golden Eggs" and if Eisner does so for the sake of Profit, he's going to hurt only the company and himself.

[BigKPFan76]

Once again, BRAVO! BRAVO! tucson! :D I agree with you on everything you said. I noticed a point you made about Bob and Mark making some changes to KP between season I and II. I think thats an indication that they are exerting more influence over Disney. In other words they are saying, the show is ours, not yours Mr. Eisner...BUT OUT! Or at least thats what Im getting from it. I hope they do start to influence the higher ups. Like I have said before in other forums, Bob and Mark know, like we do, that KP is a great show, and deserves to be given a chance to really go all the way to the end. The 65 episode policy is a sham and a half, it serves no purpose whatsoever! GET RID OF IT! :evil:

BTW, Lilo and Stich is getting better and better, Im starting to watch it more as well ;)

[Majin_Megabyte]

I also have to agree this 65 episode policy is stupid. Because if the 65th episode of KP ends at an cliffhanger point which it's hard to describe what happend to the characters. Elisenr would have his head on the table. Because I seen this happend to couple of animated series (Duckman, and Invader Zim). But in my opinion KP won't be off the aired in an long time. I do have to agree Lilo and Stitch: The series is getting better by each episode.

[tucsoncoyote]

I also have to agree this 65 episode policy is stupid. Because if the 65th episode of KP ends at an cliffhanger point which it's hard to describe what happend to the characters. Elisenr would have his head on the table. Because I seen this happend to couple of animated series (Duckman, and Invader Zim). But in my opinion KP won't be off the aired in an long time. I do have to agree Lilo and Stitch: The series is getting better by each episode.

Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Majin, Indeed the Whole Policy Eisner wrote up goes almost 11 years to 1993 when Gargoyles was running on ABC and the Disney Afternoon. and I guess 11 years ago it was a way for the Disney Animators to "Save Money" according to Eisner's Wishes.. After all the theory behind the policy was initially Sound, but the problem Eisner gave was a bit of a Problem indeed. if a Show was initally a Flop and then later gathered a fan base support (Like Gargoyles did) after Episode 65 had run and was over, (in Gargoyles case is was approximately 70+ Episodes) No new shows for that series would be created.. Period..end of Story..)

Yet in today's Cartoon shows it's not that you create a Certain number of shows and then hope for the best. Rather it's the Appeal of the show that Makes or Breaks the popularity.

in fact if Eisner had been running Fox, instead of Disney, The Simpsons wouldn't have become what they are today, nor would shows like Futurama, or King of the Hill gotten past Season 3. or 65 Episodes whichever came first!)

but the whole thing is based on the Ratings a Show is Drawing in, but for Disney's Case, it's a Case of More of a Profit and Loss Statement, rather then Ratings. With the Joint Ventures by Pixar, and by other things done, Disney has been slashing programming and even Episdoes down to a Bare minimum. in fact the Fewest Episdoes I have seen has been 41 or so and that was by the fact that it was The Legend of Tarzan (but even Tarzan has a base fan group).

now in the terms of Kim Possible, this show is being driven by one thing alone that is making the show very popular.. the Fresh Comedic Appeal of the writing Style, the ideas given to the show itself, and in fact the characters themselves..
and then there is the merchandising...

Walk into any Walmart now a days and like someone said in another thread about merchandising, Kim Possible is even more popular then Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen.. Kim Possible and Ron Stoppable aren't just Cartoon characters, they are more bordering on "cult Icons, if not Pop Icons".
of course some people think the fad of Kim and Ron could die, when the writers get stuck for ideas..

but that's where the Fan base comes in.. already there are out there ideas being tossed around so fast and furious when it comes to Kim, Ron, Wade, Rufus, Bonnie and Even Drakken, Shego and the Villainous bunch, that it would make most producers start to wonder how far the show could in theory go...and what values it could teach our kids even with slang and anahcronisms that today sound a bit cliche but really are classy...

Case in point, A recent Episode of Kim Possible (The Golden Years) deals with Kim's Relation to her Grandmother (on her Father's Side of the Family) and in fact it's not until the last 10 minutes of that particular episdoe do we learn about what Nana Possible's background really is..(It's surprising that Nana Possible was in a Lot of ways Kim some 40 years earlier!)

Also there are going to be upcoming episdoes where Kim is going to be dealing with other folks (including the Handicapable (Motor Ed) ) and in fact that's just scratching the surface of what Kim in theory Could do. There are also going to be episodes that could explain some of the Viillain's Backgrounds (Already Drakken has been explored partially in Attack of the Killer Bebes and Shego will be explored in Go Team Go.

in fact the thing is that the writers don't have to run out of ideas, and in fact Kim Possible could be turned into an Educational Program as well (after all Golden Years and the Upcoming Motor Ed are prime Examples, but other Issues could be dealt with including that one that Dr. Possible (Kim's Father) has been stressing.. (Boys! :D), but seriously Kim could have a lot of Positive effect for the Youth of America and it's this idea that I'm stressing. It's not about How much action or Comedic Laughs you could get out of the series, but rather how well Kim could become as a "Role Model" for our Teens. (After all take a Look at the Series Lilo and Stitch, and this is already setting a Quality Role for the Younger kids, why not have Kim Possible do the same for the Pre-Teen/Teenagers?)

After all a Lot of teens have problems today that are so topical it could be a blessing in disguise.

But the Main Sticking point Eisner has is that it's the Money... In this case both Lilo and Kim should be made EXEMPT from the 65 Episode policy. and in fact like I said if Eisner does kill off Kim Possible, it's because of his Frugal Like Policy of Trying to keep the Disney Company profiting from his ventures rather then looking at the whole scope of the problem (I actually talked this over with some people and they all agree, Kim Possible and Lilo and Stitch should continue well past the 65 Episode policy until either, (1) the Writers can't really come up with any more plausible ideas.. (2) or Merchandising Sales Slump on prdoucts promoted by both shows...or (3) Both..

that's the whole Line of thinking if I was running Disney, not about profit, but about developing Quality Family Programming that is fun, yet entertaining, that can develop a merchandise base, and can be readily identified..

but as for Eisner, he's old news.. the Policy is Passe and Stupid, and should be seriously revoked..for this isn't 1993, it's 2004..and things and times change, Mikey.. so should Disney's policies on it's shows, pure and simple. And that 's the name of that Tune.

[Dudley]

While some say 65 is the limit, I've seen some that lasted more than that. No more than 70, though...

[BigKPFan76]

I agree tucson, I am hoping that Eisner sees the light. 65 eps is very passe and very stupid. Another thing about that policy is that it stiffles creativity. I certainly wouldnt want an idea for a show of mine to have my creation cut off at just 65 episodes. I'd simply find another network that wants me to explore my ideas and embelish on them. Not some network that says, Ok, these are the rules....we will put your name on the opening credits as the creator, but you will have no creative control on your show (the one I came up with by the way) whatsoever, and we will put our name (Disney's) in front of your show to make everyone see who it really belongs to. But you will have no say in what goes on with it's production. Thanks for doing business with us! Uh I dont think so! There are a ton of new ideas out there, I mean come on, do you really think that a writer or writers can run out of ideas in just 65 shows? I find that hard to believe. :rolleyes:

[tucsoncoyote]

While some say 65 is the limit, I've seen some that lasted more than that. No more than 70, though...

Tucsoncoytoe here:coyote:

Actually Dudley, before 1993 Disney really had No set policy on how many episodes were run on Television and in fact here are some prime examples of why the Policy doesn't work...

Talespin ( In 1991) ran exactly 65 Episodes, while Gargoyles in (1994-1997) ran 78 Episdoes (this includes The Goliath Chronicles which tacked on an additional 13 to the original 65 Gargoyles Episodes but it ran for no more then 3 Seasons..

Aladdin however Ran for a Total of 86 Episodes plus 2 "Cheapquels" between 1992 and 1995 and Darkwing Duck Ran for 91 Episodes Between 1991 and 1992 (as 3 Seasons) Chip N Dales Rescue Rangers Ran for 65 Episodes in 1989-90 Duck Tales ran the longest at 93 episodes between 1987 and 1990.

but why did these shows die? The answer was quite simple... and in fact there are a number of reasons they died, but it's not because of the 65 Episode and it's Done Policy instituted by Disney..

A lot of it is again based on Fan appeal (This was prior to 1993) when Disney was going through some rough times and Eisner incorporated the 65 Episode Limit, of course it was for economic Reasons rather then personal or even fan reasons...

Since 1993 however a lot of shows have been left at or even below the 65 Episode Limit.all because Disney has been hurting in a number of Areas, expecially in the Last 7 years when Eisner had made some rather poor accquisitions, and sank well over 27 Billion in cash into Ventures that went no where...and believe me..some shows Like Buzz Lightyear had plenty of Staying Power for the fans.

But the problem was the fact that it was Corporate Disney that made the Decisions to Kill said shows..not the fact that the show was slipping in Ratings..(actually the second Season of Buzz Lightyear (of which Loeter and Block (both the directors of the Current Kim Possible season) both have worked on) was at the time it was cancelled at 62 Episodes was actually Improving on Ratings..and in fact it's amazing that this show could have gone 70 or even 80 or 90 Episodes before running out of steam.. but Disney rather then letting the show play out, killed it before it had a chance..

and yet there are a ton of Buzz Lightyear fans that are angry that it did die...

Frankly Disney, if they are indeed "Quality Family Entertainment" Shouldn't worry about how much animation is going to cost, they should seriously worry about their Fan base. and for good reason.. Now with Cable available at cheaper prices today and other animation Networks out there (including Cartoon Network), Disney should be seriously threatened.. Already Disney has lost a lot of potential Income by not letting a show run out to it's full potential. And like good advertising, a Great show is always remembered for it's results and ratings, just take a look at the Simpsons.. 12 years 200+ episodes on Fox, and it's because of one thing.. writing ideas...and good scripting of stories..

Kim Possible has all that and more, and yet watch, just as Kim reaches out and starts Appealing to the masses, Disney is going to come along and like a child Teasing a pit bull with a bone, Disney's Going to yank that out of the fan's reach..and I'm just waiting for the fans to storm the office of Michael E, and Demand shows that were good and wholesome be put back on..(After all isn't there a Movement already for Gargoyles? so what's next? Kim Possible?

Disney isn't lacking in the Writing Department either, so it leaves me a lot of times wondering why Great shows at Disney Get Killed.. Some supporters state that the writers get a block or a set mentality..

in this case, Kim is Growing up, she's going through high school, and the show could developed further, but there is one sticking point in that.. and that is the Shows "G" Rating on TV.

This show initally was given that by the Television Equivalent of the MPAA, and in fact Kim Possible is and is not a G rated show.. actually the show is more along the lines of a YV-7 Show (like Teen Titans) due to the fact that somethings are expressed..

I guess Disney wants to keep the "G" Rated Mushiness yet doesn't want to deal with real life or near-real life experiences that this show could do.

that's what's troubling with Disney, Keep the Kids Happy till the appeal wears off , and don't worry about the story writers and their ideas, that's what Fan Fiction is for!..

that's part of the reason why I say Disney's faltering..but sooner or later, most likely sooner, Eisner is going to have his head on the "Chopping Block" when ravenous Fans Tell Coporate investors they are NOT going to invest in Disney stock.. or any Disney Enterprises as this will show who really controls the airwaves.. It's not Corporate America Serfs, but rather the Peasant Fans of the shows who will stage the revolt..and when that happens.. Eisner's days of "Let them Eat Cake" will be met with his resignation..

[BigKPFan76]

I have to follow tucson's excellent post with a quote from my recent Yahoo! Kim Possible post, I HOPE YOU'RE WATCHING EISNER!

I figure that with enough protest, tucson, we may be able to change
that policy and get rid of that asinine 65 ep garbage. Like I have
stated before, I will PERSONALLY lead a protest against all Disney
products if that policy is not eliminated and creativity is once
again allowed to flourish at Disney. And Eisner will not only loose
fans, but his precious money too!

And I will too!! :evil: KP MUST NOT END PREMATURELY! STOP STIFFLING CREATIVITY!

[tucsoncoyote]

I have to follow tucson's excellent post with a quote from my recent Yahoo! Kim Possible post, I HOPE YOU'RE WATCHING EISNER!



And I will too!! :evil: KP MUST NOT END PREMATURELY! STOP STIFFLING CREATIVITY!

Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Sometimes the thing is that the best way to say it is with cash flow.. and believe me there BigKPFan76,(aka Royal) you're on the right track with that statement. Think about it guys. Walmart (What I call the "Real World Smarty Mart") is running 98% of the Kim Possible Items out there right now..(You can hardly go through a 1/8 of any Walmart store without running into smething that isn't Kim Possible Based, whether it's clothing, toys, or even the Secret Files Video...

Frankly next to Disney's other popular show (which isn't animated) Kim Possible has been setting a precendent over animation in terms of how FAST the show's Popularity has sprung up.. and we're talking a time period that would rival shows Like Transformers or He Man in terms of merchandising..

Kim isn't a slouch when it comes to the action end of it either, of the 40 some odd episodes already out only 2 really bad episodes and that's a pretty good track record (38 for 40 equivcates to roughly a success of something along the lines of 95% success... and in my mind anything over 90% is A+ Quality Material..especially when it comes to writing, dialogue, comedy, or down home seriousness. Kim shows all these qualities, and more.. and now that season 2 has come out, each episode is building on previous episodes that have been shown..

Kim Possible I feel has reached a quasi-cult Status in the terms of shows and it's done it in less then 18 months.. that's saying a lot for any show.. usually when a show gets that good, it's time to move it out of the farm league and let it run as a prime mover..when was the last time that a show got moved out of say cable to a prime time slot? (Acutally Never!) but Believe me the last time I checked was back in the 1960's when The Flintstones were on ABC..and you see how Hanna Barbera has turned Fred Flinstone into a major cult classic.. believe me if Disney could do this with Kim Possible that phrase, "I can Do Anything" would show that Disney still has that Family Can do attitude..

but Sadly Eisner doesn't have the same thoughts about it as does Kim now does he?

[BigKPFan76]

Kim isn't a slouch when it comes to the action end of it either, of the 40 some odd episodes already out only 2 really bad episodes and that's a pretty good track record (38 for 40 equivcates to roughly a success of something along the lines of 95% success... and in my mind anything over 90% is A+ Quality Material..especially when it comes to writing, dialogue, comedy, or down home seriousness. Kim shows all these qualities, and more.. and now that season 2 has come out, each episode is building on previous episodes that have been shown..


Very good point tucson! KP is really hitting the target when it comes to being close to reality. I know this is gonna sound silly, but sometimes I can really find myself identifying with the KP characters, especially Kim and Ron's friendship. Ron really reminds me of how I was in high school, except for the having someone else do my science project for me...lol. a la Partners. :D And I wish that I had had a really good girlfriend who stuck by me through thick and thin, no matter what. Thats the part that is the really special thing about KP is Ron and Kim's friendship, IMO I think thats one of the major reasons why the formula works so well, it is very close to how real relationships work (one can only watch Attack of the Killer Bebes to see that, Kim and Ron have a fight and they eventually settle their differences and Kim does find that Ron had a good idea and believes in him, true friendship:

Kim: .......its not going to make you become some sort of mask wearing villain is it?
Ron: If I say yes, will you let me do my Mad Dog routine?
Kim: Thats not a good reason for me to say yes..............because you're my best friend, thats a good reason!

So KP really does an excellent job of hitting the mark with reality, it has comedy, action, drama, adventure......and much more! Thats why I think the show works and why it should have a chance to succeed. Keep em comin guys! ;)

[TikiChic]

Well, Disney has spent a lot of time and money into promoting KP and the KP merchandise. I havent seen (and feel free to correct me if Im wrong) this much merchandise of a single show for Disney ever! I mean sure you have some Lizzie Mcguire items for sale and some Proud Family items for sale, but not as much as there is for KP. And it's selling big!
:rolleyes: Actually there were never any Proud Family items, it even mentions it on the Tvtome.com guide. Also I'm pretty sure there will be only 2 seasons of KP. Season 3 would have an amount of 11 episodes, and that pretty much won't happen. Also i'm pretty sure KP will go out of production sometime this year.. as well as some new episodes only airing in spring 2005... and no later probably. Disney only can handle 4 original 'new episode' running series at a time... and they have over 10 more in production right now. That's why Disney can't stretch the episode limit, otherwise, that will make the show last for more years causing no new shows to come in. There was usually at least 2 original series premiering in 1 year.. now since 2002, there has only been 1 in each year. Because Disney is getting so popular, and then leaving fans discouraged, i assume that they will stay in this some kind of locked posistion until they change their stupid minds about 'how they're handeling they're network... 'THE RIGHT WAY'. Jeeze.. :mad: :shrug:

[tucsoncoyote]

:rolleyes: Actually there were never any Proud Family items, it even mentions it on the Tvtome.com guide. Also I'm pretty sure there will be only 2 seasons of KP. Season 3 would have an amount of 11 episodes, and that pretty much won't happen. Also i'm pretty sure KP will go out of production sometime this year.. as well as some new episodes only airing in spring 2005... and no later probably. Disney only can handle 4 original 'new episode' running series at a time... and they have over 10 more in production right now. That's why Disney can't stretch the episode limit, otherwise, that will make the show last for more years causing no new shows to come in. There was usually at least 2 original series premiering in 1 year.. now since 2002, there has only been 1 in each year. Because Disney is getting so popular, and then leaving fans discouraged, i assume that they will stay in this some kind of locked posistion until they change their stupid minds about 'how they're handeling they're network... 'THE RIGHT WAY'. Jeeze.. :mad: :shrug:
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Actually you're partially right in your statement there Tikichic, but I must Correct one fact about "the 65 Episode rule" that a lot of people seem to misconstrue or misinterpet, and that is it doesn't always End EXACTLY at 65 Episodes.. there are some prime examples of Disney Shows that actually have gone beyond 65 and have gone 76 (As in the Case of Gargoyles) , 86 (as in the Case of Aladdin) , or even 91 Episodes(As in the Case of Darkwing Duck) .. but the One fact that is Certain is that Disney does usually on Average runs 3 Seasons (or 3 Years of roughly 22 Episodes Each..(hence the 65 (or 66 ) episode rule.

Now this Rule is also not hard and Fast, and it's not written in stone except on a paper that Eisner might have written out, (of Course I challenge Mr. Eisner to produce said Paper to us fans), as Like I said there are options that could make the show run longer..(and think about this since I know you also are a Totally Spies Fan, Tikichic. Didn't Cartoon Network purchase From Marathon Animation, a third season of Totally Spies? (Bringing it's Number to about 78 Episodes, (Also As I understand Time Warner /Turner Animation would probably opt out to Marathon for additional seasons of said show if the Fans Demand it?) (Frankly I would love to see what Ted Turner's Policies are and Cross Compare them to Michael Eisner's Policies.. and then you wonder why Cartoon Network is cleaning Disney's Clock with it's shows? It's because Cartoon Network doesn't stifle it's staff! plus the fact that the do listen to their fan base!)

Hence the thing that is the conundrum...

of the 10 shows that you mention Tiklichic, how many are known that are going to be animated out of those 10 shows that Disney Has in Production right now, (Is there a written list that Disney Puts out there for us fans to view? Ummm Can someoone produce this list?) ..( of those 10 you say are in Production, Only 2 that I know of, Namely Dave the Barbarian and Lilo and Stitch,are animated, but the point is this. If this is true, then by 2007, both Dave and Lilo would have to be replaced by some other animated series.. (Disney as far as I know is in the animated business are they not? Unless Eisner is starting to shy away from animation and is turning to more "Live Action Shows Like That's so Raven.

The Point is Tikichic, is that if the fans Demand a Show (whether it be Totally Spies, or Kim Possible, or I was a Teenage Robot), The Fans are also going to have to realize that any show takes time to produce. Now Disney is the ONLY company I know that does stifle it's own creativity, I guess the reason is that they fear that the fans would demand too much of just one show and thus leave other shows hurting or eventually have them get cancelled..(it's not a good thing mind you,) but that's where Diversity comes in. and yes change to a point is good, but Disney a Lot of times leaves people hanging..

(after all if you want to blame someone for Yanking Totally Spies, off of ABC Family, you have to look to the man behind that accquisiton of Fox Family and then calliing it ABC Family, and who else but our own evil Grinning genius, "Uncle Mikey" Eisner Comes to the hard cold fact here..after all he was the one who yanked that show off and then turned around and produced Kim Possible as an After thought..(and he's the one you should have been angry at and not the Kim Possible fans. After all he was the one who accquired ABC Family! for 5.2 Billion Dollars no less, then turning around and telling Haim Saban to kill the top 3 rated animated shows on ABC family, and then turn around and put on animated Drivel the likes of Beyblade, Digimon, and Power Rangers, which interestingly were also so by Fox to Disney for their own uses.)

But the thing is, I have to at this point, digress back to the fact that Eisner's had his fingers (if not his whole Hands!) in a lot fo Creativity Stifling as of late, he's Fired Hillary Duff, Brought in Raven Symone, killed a fair number of Good shows, on ABC, and ABC Family, turned around replaced with better shows, in some cases, and now he's going to repeat the cycle again until someone (most likely the fans of the shows, and the small investors), who will finally storm his office and say to his face those Immortal lines from the movie Network...

"I'm Mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" :mad:

Because sometimes leaving a Fan Hanging is the worst idea any show can do, It would be just as bad as if you take a Show like Friends, and leave people guessing what happens with no option to finish the show.. That seems a lot of times to be Michael Eisner's option.. Leave the fans hanging.. and it's this attitude of Eisner's that breeds the anger and contempt, not the show itself..

I say if there was a good time to confront the issue with Eisner, it's basically now, after all he's the one who's doing the evil deeds, no one else can stand up to him and make him understand, that when you have a Goose that Lays Golden eggs, you don't kill it just to get all the Gold, you have to Mold and shape a show that you leave the fans not wanting more, but rather sastified.. It's something Eisner has failed to do and eventually it's this attitude of his that is going to get him ousted from Disney.. pure and simple.

after all sooner or later, Eisner's going to slip up one too many times, and when he does, and it comes back in the form of Lost revenues, do you think Corporate Investors will look at him and forgive him?

Nope, they 'll give him the boot..and get someone else who is better savvy to what the people want..after all the Corporate investors won't like it if Eisner Kills their profit margin now will they?:D

[Martianinvader]

Despite the fact that Darkwing Duck had 91 shows, these were all made in two seasons. We never saw him again in any fresh animation save for the occasional appearance on another show, like Bonkers.
Darkwing was really Disney's first animated show to gain a rabit cult fanbase with which to exploit and profit off of. But no. Disney's rules were rigid: One new show a year for the Disney Afternoon, and don't look back. Networks could order a Saturday morning edition, but only for two seasons at the most.
Later on when they were struggling with 1 Too and Lloyd in Space and all that other garbage, I thought, "Maybe now they'll learn their lesson and run a series as long as there's interest for it. If Darkwing had premiered now, it would have run at least 5 seasons."

But now I see I'm wrong. Disney pulled the guillotine on Lizzie McGuire right after 65 shows, right at the peak of Lizzie-mania among preteens. This makes no sense. KP will be the next victim, no doubt.

Hey, hasn't Recess been on since 1997? How many episodes has that show built for itself? If it's more than DuckTales, I'll kill Eisner....

[tucsoncoyote]

Despite the fact that Darkwing Duck had 91 shows, these were all made in two seasons. We never saw him again in any fresh animation save for the occasional appearance on another show, like Bonkers.
Darkwing was really Disney's first animated show to gain a rabit cult fanbase with which to exploit and profit off of. But no. Disney's rules were rigid: One new show a year for the Disney Afternoon, and don't look back. Networks could order a Saturday morning edition, but only for two seasons at the most.
Later on when they were struggling with 1 Too and Lloyd in Space and all that other garbage, I thought, "Maybe now they'll learn their lesson and run a series as long as there's interest for it. If Darkwing had premiered now, it would have run at least 5 seasons."

But now I see I'm wrong. Disney pulled the guillotine on Lizzie McGuire right after 65 shows, right at the peak of Lizzie-mania among preteens. This makes no sense. KP will be the next victim, no doubt.

Hey, hasn't Recess been on since 1997? How many episodes has that show built for itself? If it's more than DuckTales, I'll kill Eisner....
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

how right you are MartianInvader, and in fact it's funny that Eisner is thinking about the axe for Kim Possible, it's probably the biggest Rabid Cult Following since Darkwing Duck, and yes you also are right it's one new show a Year (yet Disney right now is running 2! (Lilo and Stitch, and coming on 23 January, Dave the Barbarian) so that means that if the axe is going to fall Kim Possible and The Proud Family are the intended Targets!)

now as for the issue of 65 episode, Eisners got the wrong attitude when it comes to this 3 season idea.. If you kill a show in the middle of it's hype (like he did Lizzie), he's going to upset a lot of fans of said show..

and it multiplys if you do it to Kim Possible.. cause we're talkling major world wide appeal (after all Kim isn't a US Staple.. she's popular in most of the world..and if the world knew what Eisner was doing, I'd be more then GLAD to give them an Address to write to, to complain to Michael Eisner about killing the show..(*Laughs evily * I have Mikey's Number too!)
believe me Martian.. Let Eisner try..

as for Recess, Get ready to Kill Eisner:D....

According to TV Tome, 6 Seasons... 132 Episodes and 1 Feature length movie... (of course when you break that down into 2 episodes per show that comes out to just 66 Shows..))

(so yes, I'll bring the rope..:D *Evil Laughter again*!)

[Martianinvader]

Oh really...then it's actually 66; you don't count every cartoon as an episode, only the entire half-hour.

Phew. No one shall dethrone Scrooge!!

[tucsoncoyote]

Oh really...then it's actually 66; you don't count every cartoon as an episode, only the entire half-hour.

Phew. No one shall dethrone Scrooge!!
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

well yes and no, Martianinvader, as indeed it was only 66 shows but each episode was 11 minutes long so in actuality if you're counting by the number of episodes then you had 132... which is a Lot more then Ducktales.. but if you are only counting shows then it's far less then Ducktales.. (so it depends if you want to look at it by Shows or be actual Episodes..) If you're talking about Actual Episodes then by all means Recess did beat Ducktales (at 105) but if you're counting Shows then no.. as we're only talking 66 versus that same 105...

Also then if that is the case, then the 4, 11 Minute Kim Possible Episodes are counted as part of that 65 Show/Episode Policy.. but if not then KP Has at best 13 shows, before it gets canned (as there have been just 52 (not 54) shows) but if you are going by episodes then there would be a minimum of just 11 as this would be the difference.. (so the point is how do you count an 11 minute Episode? as a Show? or as just an episode..?


just pointing it out..

[BigKPFan76]

I have read is some circles that 65 episodes is the norm for ANY program on cable/sat. Reason: not many people subscribe to the cable networks, as a result they dont have that big an audiance. However, more and more people are subscribing to cable/sat. so I think that is an outdated way of looking at it. Most cable programs can successfully compete with primetime programming. (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.......the regular channels you can pickup with an antenna) I just think that 65 eps should be done away with because people do watch and those shows are getting just as popular as the ones on primetime. KP especially, is very popular and if they cancel it prematurely, we will never know the kind of REAL potential this great show could have, you cant run out of ideas in just 65. (just look at all the fanfic out there, some are very good story ideas!):cool:

[tucsoncoyote]

I have read is some circles that 65 episodes is the norm for ANY program on cable/sat. Reason: not many people subscribe to the cable networks, as a result they dont have that big an audiance. However, more and more people are subscribing to cable/sat. so I think that is an outdated way of looking at it. Most cable programs can successfully compete with primetime programming. (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.......the regular channels you can pickup with an antenna) I just think that 65 eps should be done away with because people do watch and those shows are getting just as popular as the ones on primetime. KP especially, is very popular and if they cancel it prematurely, we will never know the kind of REAL potential this great show could have, you cant run out of ideas in just 65. (just look at all the fanfic out there, some are very good story ideas!):cool:
Tucsoncoyote here :coyote:

I hae to agree with you on this one BigKPFan76, as cable and Satellite servieces are becoming Cheaper compared with say Cable 20 or even 30 Years ago... (you get more services for you dollar). And because more people are going to the Cable and/or Satellite Services, that means that viewship on a lot of Channels (most Notably Disney Channel and Cartoon Network) will increase proportionately as well. I guess that is why Ted Turner sees things differently then Michael Eisner in this area as a lot of shows that are on Cartoon Network are going well beyond 100 Episodes (Dexter's Laboratory is well over 200, and Power Puff Girls is pushing well over 150..) but the Thing is that Eisner is Still thinking that Cable is Expensive and that Satellite is the same way, hence he's thinking still "Inside the box, while Ted Turner and Cartoon Network are thinking "Outside the box.."

It's this difference as to WHY Turner is really beating Eisner, because he's Offering to Fans a Lot of Diverse Shows From Anime to Home Spun Toonage..

Meanwhile Eisner's Worried about the Cash Flow, and yet makes a Statement about his shows, then turns around and Axes them..(in Fact in his Recent Smith Barney Conference Speech (held in Phoenix Arizona over the previous Weekend, Eisner Stated Two shows were doing Quite well in viewship, Namely Even Stevens and Lizzie McGuire.. (interestingly enough both Even Stevens and Lizzie have already been CANNED by Michael (Even Stevens had 65 Episodes and a Full Length movie, and Lizzie McGuire was Canned after the Full Length Movie after Hillary Duff Demanded from Eisner a very Slight Increase in her wages (at which Point, Eisner showed Miss Duff the Door and promptly Kicked her out..)

Also another Remark made by Eisner as of Late was that he was #1 in the Age 6-11 Bracket as well as the 9-12 "Tween" Market.. both Statements of which were false as the Ratings show that for that Age Bracket the top 3 Shows are all On Cartoon Network and Not Disney Channel..

So what is this saying to me? Easy.. Eisner's Still thinking like it's the first year he Came on, which is 1984, and not 2004.. Eisner is thinking more like Big Brother Bear Orwell, then a CEO who cares about Fan base. In short, to him the Fan is the Dollar Signs that are in his eyes. and If he knew that his Pension is based on a Lot of the Merchandising of Shows that he has right now, he'd be keeping that.

but Sadly, Eisner doesn't think of the Fan, he Thinks of the Investor.. and additional notworthy statements by Jim Hill Media and Stanley Gold and Roy E Disney support the fact that if Eisner's going to pull a Miracle out of his hat, He's going to have to realize, that (1) you don't Kill off your animation studios, Most Notably his Feature Animation, and that (2) you don't kill a Show that is Highly rated that has a Merchandising base that is so huge, that stores Like Wal-Mart and Toys R Us are supporting it.

Kim Possible I might add is not a Fluke either, and Again what reviewers have said about Kim is very true, the Show has a Lot of Dynamics in it, and in fact as BigKPFan76 has pointed out there is a Huge Fan Fiction base of which a Lot of stories could be used to produce Additional Shows (sure some of the Fan Fiction might need a little re-writing but a lot of it is totally plausible to use..(and some of it is of what I call a "Rather Topical Nature" that would deal with Issues of a Teenager, hence the logic of such fan-fiction is sound..)

But Sadly again I must Emphasize that Eisner is the problem here as he's the force behind controlling the Disney Animation, as well as the Driving Force behind The Disney Channel, and usually what he says goes..

But sooner or later (more likely sooner then Later), he's going to upset a Lot of Fans of some rather good shows, and Like I stated they are going to pull that famous Line out of Network, when they start Calling, Writing, and even complaining to Disney Corporation, "I'm mad as Heck at you Mr. Eisner for Taking off my Favorite show, and I'm Not going to buy any of your Disney Products anymore.."

it's This type of Revolt that is going to make Eisner Realize that he angered the wrong bunch of people.. of course Eisner may have to step down soon enough. after all if he makes any financial blunders this year, it could cost him his job..and then Disney will be in Worse Shape then when Eisner Came in , in 1984...

[TikiChic]

and think about this since I know you also are a Totally Spies Fan, Tikichic. Didn't Cartoon Network purchase From Marathon Animation, a third season of Totally Spies? (Bringing it's Number to about 78 Episodes, Nope, Cartoon Network first only aquired 37 episodes of Totally Spies... The last new episodes aired on CN were in August-september 2003.... And they said they would purchase more of Season 2...soon. No word on Season 3 yet.

Also, Fox Family was going to air Season 2 of Totally Spies, but didn't because ABC bought them out of it. And deicded to end all kid shows.. and move in on all adult shows. That means Totally Spies pretty much ended.. two September's ago.

I'm pretty sure, things will stay the same with Disney. They probably won't extend eps of KP. Lizzie McGuire was much more popular than.. ugh.. KP.. :shrug: So, i really beleive that disney won't be allow more eps of KP then Lizzie Mcguire (65), only 1 UNAIRED ep.

Also, about the other Disney series of like gargoyles.. and ..something ducks.. which network aired NEW episodes of those two cartoons anyways? Was it disney? then it probably wouldn't've extended the episode limit. I really don't no what the deal is for those two Disney produced cartoons.. but maybe ABC bought them out.. of Disney and kept their name.. but produced more eps of something. < I think i'm wrong about that. :sweat:

Also, if those series you mentioned.. are both Two-part episode series... EXAMPLE: 'The Party / In The Zone', and someone seperated them... then they count as one whole episode. You probably know that.

[loyalheart]

at my kp group it's been flooded with "save kp" but, personally im almost all disney'ed out. they dont listen and it seems to me they are in the mood to compete with fansites lately.

[Samurai Rocko]

Eisner just keeps messing up. Knowing Roy Disney is tying to dethrone him, you think he be playing his moves a little carefully. We all ready know Roy's gonna try to use the closure of the Flordia animation studio to his advantage(even though it seem Eisner did win that with that movie announcement.), if Eisner does cancel Kim Possible at 65 episodes, and if the fans do start to protest, Roy will most certainly use Kim Possible as a tool to get people who may not know about Disney's other problems( No 2D films in production, failed negotiations with Pixar, etc.). At first I thought getting rid of eisner would be no easy task, but he's not even putting up a fight and his weak defenses are all crumbling down, so don't worry this will end very happily.

[BigKPFan76]

I can assure you, I have written probably more letters about this 65 ep garbage than anyone. And if Roy wants to use that as ammunition against Eisner, by all means, he certainly has my permission! :D I certainly hope that Eisner's prefect little world starts crumbling down around him, because there are tons of fans out there who feel the way I do about KP. This is one show that has alot of promise and the fans know it, thats why there is so much fanfic out there. Lots of good ideas can come from KP. But the 65 episode policy is just stupid in general, I dont care what big-head-honcho Eisner says........Its an ignorant policy and it needs to be abolished now! Before other 'toons become his victims. It squashes creativity among the writers and producers, it disappoints the fans who want to see a finality to a show, and it just plain doesnt make sense! Ask how the fans of Seinfeld how they would have felt if it got cancelled after just 65? They would have been beating down and smashing the front doors of NBC to protest their anger! As will I if this garbage is allowed to continue. Eisner needs to understand that he cant continue to disappoint fans with his assinine policy, he has to understand that we are the ones who matter, not some stupid status quo. If a show is popular and people watch it and people love it, then it should stay on, period! You dont see other networks following this kind of crap! They know when a show is a hit and they let it run its course until the fans grow tired of it. And thats the way it should be! The fans should make the decision, not some stupid, ignorant CEO.

[tucsoncoyote]

Eisner just keeps messing up. Knowing Roy Disney is tying to dethrone him, you think he be playing his moves a little carefully. We all ready know Roy's gonna try to use the closure of the Flordia animation studio to his advantage(even though it seem Eisner did win that with that movie announcement.), if Eisner does cancel Kim Possible at 65 episodes, and if the fans do start to protest, Roy will most certainly use Kim Possible as a tool to get people who may not know about Disney's other problems( No 2D films in production, failed negotiations with Pixar, etc.). At first I thought getting rid of eisner would be no easy task, but he's not even putting up a fight and his weak defenses are all crumbling down, so don't worry this will end very happily.
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

You know Samurai Rocko, you are "Spot On" about this.. and already I can tell you Eisner isn't one of the most Favored Chief Executive officers around..

First off if you ever read Forbes Magazine, (The Online version) , you can find a CEO rating and actually RATE Michael Eisner.. and believe me his Track Record isn't wonderful (he's at least not Like Ballinger of Microsoft mind you..)

but the thing is that you take a look at his ratings at Forbes and everytime there is a Downturn for him, it's usually when he's Messed up big time..

Case in Point, In June 2003, he messed up the Disney/Pixar Deals and in July Forbes' CEO poll showed Eisner at a Measley 10%... and never has Eisner gotten above a 55 % approval rating.. This month Already he's at a 22% approval rating and that's because of the WDFA- Florida closure..

I figure if you look also at Eisner's Portfolio, just today alone Eisner Lost 1.74 Million in Stock earnings... (the Stock itself closed off 8 cents today in rather lackluster trading..)

but you now are starting to see a connection here.. When Eisner messes up, and he does it big time, People don't like him, They LOATHE him..

and if Kim Possible goes out the window, then you can imagine that this for him isn't taking a step backwards.. (It's taking a Step backwards and falling off the Matterhorn.. Can we say big time Plunge here?)

Eisner's attrocities are numerous to say the least but the thing is that considering he's already botched the Pixar Dealings, Layed off his staff, and is already of Killing his Primary Cable TV show that is making him a small fortune in merchandising, doesn't it want you to boycott Disney ? or at least say to your friends "Don't watch Disney, Watch Cartoon Network instead?

it's sad when Eisner uses such tactics, but he has one weakness.. his Wallet.. Hit him there, and you realize that the evil King Can't keep himself going.. I mean merchandising is part of the KP icon, and believe me Kim isn't a fly by night show, she's now the NEW disney Icon..

but what troubles me the most is Eisner only giving the show such Minor credit in his Smith Barney speech on January 5th 2004, in Phoenix Arizona, .. that's what is worrying me tht most, cause it's sounds like to me that he wants to Kill "the Goose that lays the golden eggs", and replace it with what I call "Sheep mentality Programming.."

that's scary isn't it?

[tucsoncoyote]

Also, Fox Family was going to air Season 2 of Totally Spies, but didn't because ABC bought them out of it. And deicded to end all kid shows.. and move in on all adult shows. That means Totally Spies pretty much ended.. two September's ago.
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

That's Correct Tikichic, but you just said the KEY thing.. Who Bought out Fox Family? ABC did.. and Who Owns ABC/Capitol Broadcasting? the Walt Disney Company? And Who runs Walt Disney Company? One Michael Eisner...

The truth be known.. Eisner Sank 5.2 BILLION Dollars into his ABC Family Buyout Deal with Fox Family (and Rupert Murdoch) in the Summer of 2002, June 2002 to be precise, and in fact The First thing he did was he Approached Haim Saban, of Saban Entertainment and told him the first thing to go was all the "Female Oriented Programming" and Saban, at first revolted, but then reluctantly replaced the shows with what is on now.. (actually he was "Pushed" by Eisner under fear of Termination of his Job) and in fact that's the real reason why Totally Spies went Poof.. then amazingly at the same time Eisner turns around and creates Kim Possible, which Then Totally Spies Fans Grumble is a Rip off of their show..

Was it just coincidence that Totally Spies Disappears from Fox/ABC Family and Kim Possible Magically Appears on Disney Channel? I think not!... Eisner saw the potential of Totallly Spies, but rather then pulling them under the Disney channel roof, (and Letting Marathon Produce only 52 episodes and then let it go), Eisner turns out his own variation pure and simple..

and they say conspiracy runs in spy Organizations? well it runs in Media organizations as well, Tiki. That's the point I'm making.. Eisner Conspired to leave Totally Spies Fans angry and then make it look like Kim Possible was the Blame.. when we all know who the real villain is now don't we?;)

[Martianinvader]

Actually, think about this...Eisner likely wanted ABC Family to air mostly boys' shows, and Disney Channel to air mostly girls' shows. It makes sense when you look at both their lineups these days.

[Artimus Gigan]

Then were are Gargoyles?!

I donm't get Toon Disney...

[tucsoncoyote]

Actually, think about this...Eisner likely wanted ABC Family to air mostly boys' shows, and Disney Channel to air mostly girls' shows. It makes sense when you look at both their lineups these days. Tucsoncoyote here:coyote: making my 200th post.. and it's a doozy..

Actually Martininvader, you're right. in fact it's great logic there

ABC Family is airing more "Boy oriented Shows" such as Digimon, Power Rangers (Mostly Ninja Storm now, but also some other variants) Medabots, and of course Beyblade, just recently they added in The Famous Jett Jackson. Meanwhile Disney Channel is angeling on Lilo and Stitch, Kim Possible, The Proud Family, Lizzie McGuire and of couse That's so Raven.. all "Girl Oriented.. "

The only exception to the rule I have to say about the logic here is that on the Disney Channel is that after the 23rd of January (Next Friday) Disney Channel is going to countercross that policy with the first Boy-Girl Oriented episodes of Dave the Barbarian.. (now is this show " Boy Oirented"(as boys Can Relate to Dave) or would this show be "Girl Oriented (as the female watchers would relate to both Candy and Fang?)

Now that's an interesting problem in the logic here.. cause in some ways the show Dave the Barbarian, if it were Girl Oriented wouldn't be called Dave the Barbarian now would it? It would have been called Candy and Fang the Barbarians. Also another side note...Candy runs the kingdom (while Mom and Dad are away, yet in one episode she let's Dave run the kingdom..(with somewhat hilarious Disasterous Results)

Of course then there is Fang, always keeps reminding Dave that she is NOT a Moneky..(She can be a Pest at times but not a monkey!) and yet you'll probably see some rather ladylike things happen, yet she'll return to her pesky self..)

Ron Stoppable: Maybe it's "Monkey Oriented " :bosko:

so the problem is this.. "Where in the world does this particular show lie?" Is it "Boy oriented or Girl Oriented?".. well maybe both or neither..it's hard to tell in this light where Dave the Barbarian goes...

But now to swich gears here,

Another problem is the fact that since Dave the Barbarian is going to be the current replacement for The Proud Family, that means we're going to have to put up with at least 65 Shows of that.. and from reading the first 10 shows synopsises off of the Disney Channel website.. it makes you wonder.. could Disney be gearing up for some possible (pardon the Pun here:D) show that will replace Kim Possible? to kill off the show at 65 episodes... already it's unknown as to how far Kim Possible would go, but if Eisner shows his true colors...he'll axe Kim Possible for some other replacement..and that is worrysome.


After all Like I quipped in a post to a friend jokingly what are they going to plan to replace Kim Possible with??? (if Dave the Barbarian is the answer for The Proud Family.. I shudder to think what the replacement for Kim Possible Is.)

[BigKPFan76]

Im wondering if perhaps Disney would be willing to compromise and make a spin-off of KP. Still Kim oriented, but with a slightly new title, that way us KP fans can still see new eps. Maybe that would be a way of getting around the 65 ep thing. However I would really much rather see KP continued from its current production. Titled Kim Possible, and not Kim and Ron: The College Years. Although it might happen, who knows.:shrug:

[loyalheart]

Tucsoncoyote here:coyote: making my 200th post.. and it's a doozy..

Actually Martininvader, you're right. in fact it's great logic there

ABC Family is airing more "Boy oriented Shows" such as Digimon, Power Rangers (Mostly Ninja Storm now, but also some other variants) Medabots, and of course Beyblade, just recently they added in The Famous Jett Jackson. Meanwhile Disney Channel is angeling on Lilo and Stitch, Kim Possible, The Proud Family, Lizzie McGuire and of couse That's so Raven.. all "Girl Oriented.. "

The only exception to the rule I have to say about the logic here is that on the Disney Channel is that after the 23rd of January (Next Friday) Disney Channel is going to countercross that policy with the first Boy-Girl Oriented episodes of Dave the Barbarian.. (now is this show " Boy Oirented"(as boys Can Relate to Dave) or would this show be "Girl Oriented (as the female watchers would relate to both Candy and Fang?)

Now that's an interesting problem in the logic here.. cause in some ways the show Dave the Barbarian, if it were Girl Oriented wouldn't be called Dave the Barbarian now would it? It would have been called Candy and Fang the Barbarians. Also another side note...Candy runs the kingdom (while Mom and Dad are away, yet in one episode she let's Dave run the kingdom..(with somewhat hilarious Disasterous Results)

Of course then there is Fang, always keeps reminding Dave that she is NOT a Moneky..(She can be a Pest at times but not a monkey!) and yet you'll probably see some rather ladylike things happen, yet she'll return to her pesky self..)

Ron Stoppable: Maybe it's "Monkey Oriented " :bosko:

so the problem is this.. "Where in the world does this particular show lie?" Is it "Boy oriented or Girl Oriented?".. well maybe both or neither..it's hard to tell in this light where Dave the Barbarian goes...

But now to swich gears here,



disney is pointing towards boys this year. with 'Going to the mat', ', 'phil of the future' and im sure we'll see some others. im positive of this. and im sure Dave is pointed towards boys also.

as far as kp. unless the creators and crew set it in stone already i dont see why it wont have a chance to be picked up by ABC.

[Jaguar]

After all of this is said and done, though, what will be of ABC Kids' schedule?! I mean, TPF and KP are there, along with Lizzie McGuire, and since all three shows have/will have 65 episodes only, they'll have to end up replacing them, eventually. I can see Dave crossing over and taking TPF's place, but after that, it's kind of a gray area.

[tucsoncoyote]

After all of this is said and done, though, what will be of ABC Kids' schedule?! I mean, TPF and KP are there, along with Lizzie McGuire, and since all three shows have/will have 65 episodes only, they'll have to end up replacing them, eventually. I can see Dave crossing over and taking TPF's place, but after that, it's kind of a gray area.
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Truer words were never spoken there Jaguar, but you forgot one little issue with ABC Kids that has escaped everyone and this comes back to an article that was posted a while back on Toonzone about ABC Broadcasting (Home of ABC Kids) cutting back on the number of hours that ABC Kids are going to receive after March of 2004..

Apparently ABC is wanting to start to try and remove from the network in most ABC Affilliates an Hour of Children's Saturday Programming to replace it with Good Morning America... That's a Real Sad Statement and usually the ones that get replaced or Removed here would be those shows that aren't doing well in the Ratings.. and most likely ABC would love to Axe a Show Like Kim Possible or The Proud Family.. and the reason is most Likely Ratings...

But Conversely Kim Possible was put into what I call "The Dead Zone" it's an area of Saturday Programming that is usually either pre-empted by Football (Usually After 10 AM on Saturdays) or is usually a period of Time that occrus before 8 am on any given Saturday..

In Most of the United States Kim Possible on ABC Kids has been Put on at 11 AM in the morning..(that's usually right when most College football games come on..) with one Exception...

And that's here in the Mountain States (Arizona Included) where Kim Possible is put on at 6:30 AM..(another "Dead Zone")

so you wonder why Kim Possible's Ratings on ABC are low? It's because of the way ABC Affiliates have programmed the kid blocks.. they don't want to put on Disney Channel Successes on at a Reasonable time for kids so they can enjoy the show with Higher Ratings.. (it's more of what I call "Eisner Sabotage" by Eisner himself..)

[Yamal]

Those are really sad news, Tucsoncoyote.

[tucsoncoyote]

Those are really sad news, Tucsoncoyote.
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Indeed it is Yamal, but the thing is this is at the Discretion of the seperate ABC Affilliates out there that are making the Decision, and in fact the Majority of them are deciding that an Hour of Good Morning America is better then an Hour of Toons for the kids..

The Executives at these ABC Affiliates are only interested in one thing (and it's called Ratings!) in that the Execs are only interested in Drawing in a More mature crowd then letting some 6-12 Year olds have some relaxing Entertainment..all for the benefit of a Doubt..

After all if ABC and it's Affiliated Stations had their way, they would actually cut the amount of Animation Down to just 3 Hours (and all of it being Educational and Instructional Television ) As per according to the 1990 E/I act (that was later Appended in 1997 to require that 3 Hours..) Someone in one of the Disney Threads talking about GMA actually said that if ABC had their way about it, they would abolish toons altogether..:eek: and in fact the decline of animation is to a point where now Kids today don't have a morning of Cartoon fun, (except maybe on WB, and Fox,) and if ABC and CBS had their way they would have gotten out of the Saturday Toonbiz about the same time as NBC..in the late 1980's

But then again, Yamal Execs at most broadcasting stations don't usually care what people feel or say.. and it is indeed sad that Toonage has slipped to where it is now.. You can figure by 2010, only Cable Networks Like Cartoon Network will be the only channels available to children and even then the Government will step in and try to regulate these as well.. so it's no surprise that Animation is on the way out.. due to Rules and Regulations and Acts by Congress, is toon animation being relegated to the Dustbin of Life..

[Yamal]

I'm from Spain and I have always been used to watch my cartoons dose as I have breakfast. Sadly, in the last few years, it has happened the same thig in Spain than in the US. I suppose execs are exec, no matter where we are. Thankfully, I pay for satellite TV (in fact, I share the costs with my brother) and a I can enjoy a few cartoon channels: Disney Channel, Disney Channel + 1, Toon Disney, Playhouse Disney, Cartoon Neetwork, Fox Kids and Nickelodeon. But it's sad to see how important cartoons were in the past and how the networks treat them now.

[Alph]

What if they made a sequal to "Kim Possible" that focused more on Ron Stoppable?I mean,if they are going for more "boy-oriented" shows,and stuff.I mean,the show has been developing Ron to be more on his own lately.




They could call it...The Ron Factor.

[BigKPFan76]

What if they made a sequal to "Kim Possible" that focused more on Ron Stoppable?I mean,if they are going for more "boy-oriented" shows,and stuff.I mean,the show has been developing Ron to be more on his own lately.




They could call it...The Ron Factor.
That's an idea, a sequal...or as some call it a spin-off. Sounds like it might work, however I think Kim should continue from its current incarnation. I just wish that Disney (Eisner) would let us decide how long a show will go on. Thats the way it should be.

[Alph]

That's an idea, a sequal...or as some call it a spin-off. Sounds like it might work, however I think Kim should continue from its current incarnation. I just wish that Disney (Eisner) would let us decide how long a show will go on. Thats the way it should be.Well a spin-off is a completely new series that takes place in the same continuity as another show,but has it's own basic storyline and generally focuses on a minor character from the previous series,with the old stars making maybe a few cameos.A sequal is a continaution of another series,with obvious differences such as setting,or timeframe.But the characters are generally the same,and while the plot changes, it is like I said a continuation of the previous one,using references and such.


Either idea would work,and it would give the storyline another 65 eps while staying in within Eisner's rules.In fact,why not have both?Have a sequal that's still about Kim and Ron,then have a spinoff about Drakkon and Shego,or adult Jim and Tim Possible,or whatever.

[BigKPFan76]

Well a spin-off is a completely new series that takes place in the same continuity as another show,but has it's own basic storyline and generally focuses on a minor character from the previous series,with the old stars making maybe a few cameos.A sequal is a continaution of another series,with obvious differences such as setting,or timeframe.But the characters are generally the same,and while the plot changes, it is like I said a continuation of the previous one,using references and such.


Either idea would work,and it would give the storyline another 65 eps while staying in within Eisner's rules.In fact,why not have both?Have a sequal that's still about Kim and Ron,then have a spinoff about Drakkon and Shego,or adult Jim and Tim Possible,or whatever.
A Drakken and Shego spinoff might work. I dont know how the story line would go though, they would be the villains and with out a hero to stop them it might seem weird.:shrug: But tweeking the series slightly to make a continuation would probably be the best idea. Any way to get around Eisner's stupid rules would be game for me.

[tucsoncoyote]

Well a spin-off is a completely new series that takes place in the same continuity as another show,but has it's own basic storyline and generally focuses on a minor character from the previous series,with the old stars making maybe a few cameos.A sequal is a continaution of another series,with obvious differences such as setting,or timeframe.But the characters are generally the same,and while the plot changes, it is like I said a continuation of the previous one,using references and such.


Either idea would work,and it would give the storyline another 65 eps while staying in within Eisner's rules.In fact,why not have both?Have a sequal that's still about Kim and Ron,then have a spinoff about Drakkon and Shego,or adult Jim and Tim Possible,or whatever. Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Actually Alph some of the fan bases wouldn't mind seeing a Ron Stoppable Spin off in mind, where he tends to use his Mystical Monkey powers a bit more then not.. and of course a Cameo by Kim from Time to time..

As for the Drakken Shego idea that too could work but the problem is that you'll still need kim and or Ron to save the day when they really get Nefarious..

of course there is also a Possible Rufus Spinoff.. (hey it would be a first of sorts..seeing a Hairless Rodent getting his own show..(but that formula might not work, as they tried that with The Real Ghostbusters back in the Late 1980's and early 1990's (with Slimer) and it didn't go over as well as the original show..

Sure spinoffs work but again you're dealing with the plausibility of if the show will have as good as a Dynamic Writing and storytelling as the original.. that's the main problem when it comes to Spin offs..

[Alph]

Sure spinoffs work but again you're dealing with the plausibility of if the show will have as good as a Dynamic Writing and storytelling as the original.. that's the main problem when it comes to Spin offs..





Well,just get the same writing team on the new series,and hopefully it'll turn out well.

[Tash]

A Drakken and Shego spinoff might work. I dont know how the story line would go though, they would be the villains and with out a hero to stop them it might seem weird.:shrug: But tweeking the series slightly to make a continuation would probably be the best idea. Any way to get around Eisner's stupid rules would be game for me.
They could always fight Dr. Dementor... or, better yet, Eisner!

[BigKPFan76]

They could always fight Dr. Dementor... or, better yet, Eisner!
OH Yea! Hes the most evil of all Disney villains! :D :evil:

[Alph]

Drakken: Haha!I have overthrown the lair of walt disney,and bending the sheer power of such a massive corporation,will now use the built up destructive force to dominate the universe!




Shego: It's a bunch of thirty year old writers that live with there parents...and a theme park.



Drakken: Ooh look,it's Goofy!*runs off*



Eisner(walking in): So,you seek to steal my vast wealth,have yee?


Shego: Yee?


Drakken: You have vast wealth?Where?!


Eisner: You thought you could escape my 65 episode limit...but now you will learn that resistance is futile.


Drakken: But we're in a spinoff!



Eisner: Proceed...your way to oblivian.


Drakken: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


*Time-slot replaced with reruns of Dave the barbarian*

[BigKPFan76]

Yep, thats exactly how Eisner would act if he were on an ep of KP. His name would be Scene Stealer, or Show Stopper.....take your pick.

[tucsoncoyote]

Yep, thats exactly how Eisner would act if he were on an ep of KP. His name would be Scene Stealer, or Show Stopper.....take your pick.
Tucsoncoyote here:coyote:

Actually Eisner woudl be the Villainous Mr. Michael Moneymaker.. wanting to write everything off for a buck. and in fact he would work alongside.. Frugal Lucre (Francis Lerman)

Ron Stoppable: Francis and Michael???!!!.. No wonder those guys are twisted!!!..:D

[equality7_2521]

Hey BigKPFan76/thenightfly,

This is my first post on this forum, and I hope that this message is not sidetracking things too much, but I thought it was really great when you posted the URL for www.savekimpossible.com, on the TV Tome Kim Possible forum.

I was saddened when I read your message saying that you were so sick of the flaming that you were going to leave the TV Tome forum. That's really unfortunate, because I see all of the polite people fleeing and the flamers taking over the board (a few flamers say they were there "first" and they're reclaiming the board). It should be the other way around: it's the flamers who should vacate and the civil people who should be left in peace.

Do you think there's a good chance that administrator ruggaphile would make you a moderator? The most disturbing thing about this is that the "no personal attacks" rule has plain disappeared from the website's list of guidelines. I fear the worst but hope for the best in regard to this situation.


EDIT: I just posted there again, and the "No personal attacks" rule was visible. Perhaps it was there the whole time, but I could have sworn that it wasn't there the third-to-last time I posted.

[BigKPFan76]

Hey BigKPFan76/thenightfly,

This is my first post on this forum, and I hope that this message is not sidetracking things too much, but I thought it was really great when you posted the URL for www.savekimpossible.com (http://www.savekimpossible.com/), on the TV Tome Kim Possible forum.

I was saddened when I read your message saying that you were so sick of the flaming that you were going to leave the TV Tome forum. That's really unfortunate, because I see all of the polite people fleeing and the flamers taking over the board (a few flamers say they were there "first" and they're reclaiming the board). It should be the other way around: it's the flamers who should vacate and the civil people who should be left in peace.

Do you think there's a good chance that administrator ruggaphile would make you a moderator? The most disturbing thing about this is that the "no personal attacks" rule has plain disappeared from the website's list of guidelines. I fear the worst but hope for the best in regard to this situation.


EDIT: I just posted there again, and the "No personal attacks" rule was visible. Perhaps it was there the whole time, but I could have sworn that it wasn't there the third-to-last time I posted.Hey equality! Whats up! Welcome to the board!:D Yea, I know about the TVTome forum, those "bad people" have totally ruined it for us good folks that just want to post and talk about KP and have a good time. I am hoping that ruggaphile will make me a mod there, and my first order of business will be to "take the trash out" despite what everyone there said, I can and I will boot out all offenders. Even if they come back under a different name. I'll catch em, trust me, the moment they post something bad, they're outa there! No if's, and's or but's about it! Until the garbage is cleaned out, its gonna be a war zone there. Those people should be ashamed of themselves, but they're not. Thats why they post what they post. And if the people at Disney do read what's there, they must be pretty disgusted as well, I know I would be. And they're making it look like all Kim fans are that way. Thats one way to kill a show! But they should know that not all Kim fans act that immature, the majority of us are good people. What we need to do is reclaim the forum, I agree, and it starts with ignoring the ignorant. We need to stick to the topic at hand and just read the posts by the good posters who are there and respond only to those posts, not the ignorant ones. But what im seriously thinking about doing is going to TVTome's home page and see what it would take to become a mod, and maybe even report to the higher ups what's going on there....they may not be aware of it. But anyway, once again welcome.....we're glad to have you here!:)

[equality7_2521]

Thanks, BigKPFan!! ;)

A few of the bullies there put on their "nice face" when directly addressing ruggaphile, and two or three of them keep throwing their "seniority" around, as if their being on that forum since 2002 gives them some moral license to castigate anyone who's different . They ought to learn that the rules apply equally to everyone.

[BigKPFan76]

Thanks, BigKPFan!! ;)

A few of the bullies there put on their "nice face" when directly addressing ruggaphile, and two or three of them keep throwing their "seniority" around, as if their being on that forum since 2002 gives them some moral license to castigate anyone who's different . They ought to learn that the rules apply equally to everyone.
You're very welcome equality! :) Well, its doesnt matter to me how long they have been there, if they act like infants, that makes them as such. I really wouldnt care if they had 100 years senority, that doesnt give them the right to be "idiots" ( I would use stronger language, but you can insert any 4-letter word you want to in the quotation marks) :D From now on, im gonna ignore them, thats the best we can do. But if it continues to esculate, they may consider shutting down the forum all together. Sad to punish the whole class though, they need to only ban the bad ones.

[tucsoncoyote]

I figure i might as well get back on topic here and ask a rather interesting question (this does however relate to the 65 Episode Policy that Disney Has in Place right now..

I am really wondering how many shows that are "Quality Made". I mean I've noticed a Slight downward Spiral in the quality of Animation and writing that Disney has been putting out lately and in fact it troubles me to wonder: how Many Disney Shows Have to Die before The Folks at Disney Realize that Ratings and Fanbase (Popularity) make the show, and not some "Episode Count"

If this were the case Gummi Bears, Gargoyles and a Few other shows would have had over 100 eps.. and in a few cases Like Gargoyles possibly 150..

It's troubling that Eisner is using just a 65 Episode formula and isn't bothering to ask the fans how they feel..

that's a Crying shame isn't it?:(

[BigKPFan76]

I figure i might as well get back on topic here and ask a rather interesting question (this does however relate to the 65 Episode Policy that Disney Has in Place right now..

I am really wondering how many shows that are "Quality Made". I mean I've noticed a Slight downward Spiral in the quality of Animation and writing that Disney has been putting out lately and in fact it troubles me to wonder: how Many Disney Shows Have to Die before The Folks at Disney Realize that Ratings and Fanbase (Popularity) make the show, and not some "Episode Count"

If this were the case Gummi Bears, Gargoyles and a Few other shows would have had over 100 eps.. and in a few cases Like Gargoyles possibly 150..

It's troubling that Eisner is using just a 65 Episode formula and isn't bothering to ask the fans how they feel..

that's a Crying shame isn't it?:(Yep, it truely is tucson. I think that should be the basis for all shows. After all isnt Disney's own motto......Disney Channel shows, made just for you? If they are truely made for us, then let us decide when they go and when they should stay.........its a simple forumla that Eisner doesnt get. Hopefully in March, he will be kicked to the curb.

[tucsoncoyote]

Yep, it truely is tucson. I think that should be the basis for all shows. After all isnt Disney's own motto......Disney Channel shows, made just for you? If they are truely made for us, then let us decide when they go and when they should stay.........its a simple forumla that Eisner doesnt get. Hopefully in March, he will be kicked to the curb.
Well BigKPFan76, if they were truely made for us, (as they state,) then maybe just maybe Disney is promoting Fraudulent Advertising here..

Think about it guys, 65 Episodes, and it's made for us? Even when a show has High ratings, it's gets canned..(Points to Gargoyles, Aladdin, and Talespin).

but Disney really needs to learn some manners after all why is it that shows like Dexter's Lab and Power Puff Girls over at CN get 200+ eps, and any Disney show only gets just 65..and people wonder why the Turner Cable Cartoon Network is cleaning Disney's Clock? well I think that answers the question..because Turner let's the Companys that Produce the shows go on till the ratings slump, of course Disney kills off shows right when they are going good..(Points to Gargoyles yet again)

I mean this is silly that Disney gives their shows only 65 Chances to Prove they are good then kills them or they let them go maybe at the most 1/2 an extra season before killing them off.. it's not really fair to the fans of the shows, and now with Kim Possible on the line (with just 25 eps left), it seems that Disney would kill it off as well..

their loss when they lose the merchandising end of the deal..