Does 'Justice League' Ruin 'Batman'?

[Stu]

Now then

Before you hit 'submit reply' please read the full thread.

I'm not here to ask you whether or not Justice League has butuchered Batmans character. I don't think it has, but thats up to you.

I'm here to ask you whether or not you think it has ruined his cartoon. Perhaps ruined is a bad expression, but here me out.

Since Batman: The Animated Series first started, it had a slightly realistic tone to it all. Everyone from the main character, to his supporting cast to his villians, they where all given human characteristics and human traits. Most of the villians where simply insane people, who's motives where usually established from the get-go. Most of them didn't have any fancy powers because they where bombarded with radiation or whatever, they where normal folks like you and me, but they where crazy. There are exceptions of course, like Man-Bat, Clayface and Killler Croc, but they usually had reasons as to why they where freaks.

Now, in one of Batman's spin offs Justice League we see Batman fighting aliens, gods, and men from the bottom of the ocean, whilst he teams up with a girl with wings and a Princess from a foriegn island.

Does the translation work? Does the same character now seem as realistic as he once was? Does he seem really out of place in the Justice Leagues world?

Also, as a personnal request, if you say anything that happened in a JL episode that takes place after 'A Better World' then please use spoiler brackets, they haven't been shown in the UK yet. Thanks :)

[TimTwoFace]

This is the exact reason why I'm not a fan of the Justice League, particularly Batman's involvement - put simply, it just doesn't make sense. It's way too "superheroic", and not very "realistic"; Batman is the DC hero that is by far the most realistic, as is his setting, and supporting cast. Everyone else on the JL, even though character-wise they may be deep and realistic, they still couldn't be REAL people - they're all rejects from outer-space or lost non-human societies somewhere.

It's a big culture clash, really. Seeing Batman with them does sort of fit, but when you think that, in his past, he didn't battle aliens and gods but, rather, human lunatics and petty thugs, it just doesn't mesh well. That's why I'm not a fan of Batman's team-ups - aside from Superman, which is about the only one I've grown to accept as something truly legitimate. He's allowed to have ONE superpowered friend - not six.

-Tim

[Alex Weitzman]

There's no doubt that Batman: The Animated Series is a very different beast than Justice League is. But, of course, that is the inherent danger in creating a show like Justice League, which draws from the entire DC universe. What is clear now, in looking at Justice League, is that B:TAS was a show that not only featured its main character in the best light possible, but also tried to construct plots and environments that naturally reflected Batman. It was quite literally Batman's world, swimming in darkness and full of psychological conflict. Gotham City, in its soul, was very similar to its defender, and thusly the episodes were bound to be more realistic, noir, and ponderous about mentality.

Justice League has no sustainable tone, which is either a boon or flaw as you see fit. (On one hand, it makes the show as a whole impossible to come to grips with; on the other, it creates wonderful variety.) Because it stars so many different kinds of heroes, whose abilities vary wildly, it's not surprising to see the kind of contradictions that you note. But if you look closely, Justice League still has the same habits that B:TAS sports, but just on an episode-by-episode basis. Take an episode like Injustice for All, which very clearly focused on Batman (and Luthor). Despite the presence of supernatural figures like the Shade and Star Sapphire, the episode was grounded more in issues of normal people than any others, as well as being highly interested in psychology (the aberrant melding of the group of villains, and the fights that ensue). Compare this with Paradise Lost, the Wonder Woman-focus episode that concerns itself with matters of mythology, loyalty, and magic - three things bound to pop into mind when thinking of WW. The Brave and the Bold is light, fast, silly, and concerned thematically with owning up to responsibility; hello, Flash-focus. See what I mean?

Sure, Batman can be a little dwarfed by his surroundings in Justice League, like when he goes to New Genesis in Twilight. But the important thing for his character is that he himself is not daunted by it; Batman remains as composed as ever in the face of these uberpowerful foes and extraterrestrial environments (which, by the way, they try not to put him in too much). If anything, it reinforces his character from his own show. After watching him in Justice League, it's more certain than ever just how no-nonsense and effective he is.

[maxnugget]

Interesting post, Spidey.

There's definitely merit to saying Batman is much less believable on JL than his BTAS/TNBA/STAS/BB counterpart. Even when you watch the most recent BTAS-era offering, "Mystery of the Batwoman," there's a clear and obvious delineation between that and the Batman on JL.

On the other hand, seeing Batman be such a badass in Justice League draws another side to his character, or at least adds an interesting re-statement of his already-established character. In JL, there's no time to show all the nitty-gritty details of how Batman gets from point A to point B. There's no time to show him working out the details to figure out that Amazo will be vulnerable to Kryptonite, etc. So what we get is a Batman that is an executive summary of himself, a Batman who comes off as extremely quick-witted and ALWAYS fully prepared for every possible scenario (except when he does something stupid like get hit with a sack of rocks or slamming his fists into Braniac's computer).

That is, JL cuts right to the chase of what makes Batman so formidable: his mind. Sure, Batman is a pretty damn good fighter, but this is usually a moot point on a show filled with gods, aliens, and magical creatures. And there's not time to show a five-minute dialog between him and Alfred in the Batcave. So we see the very heart of Batman's strength, his incredible mental acumen and insurmountable will-power.

And, in that respect, I think JL actually does Batman a service. It's very similar to the evolution of his "summarization" on BTAS/TNBA: For example, in the early days of BTAS, we'd see the full, detailed (and, frankly, often boring) sequence of him using his grappling hook. In fact, it's quite jarring when we're watching an intense or dramatic scene, and then we have to take a momentary break while we show Batman breaking out the grappling hook, aiming it, firing it, tugging the line, and then finally swinging off. BTAS had a tendency to do this, and I, for one, found this annoying. By TNBA, though, they had come up with the ingenious idea of making his use of things like the grappling hook a much more trivial matter. Instead of making his use of the grappling hook its own mini-action sequence each time he used it, the grappling hook became simply an extension of his normal movement ability. I think all will agree that it made Batman seem much cooler and much more badass. In short, they achieved a greater impact for his ability to grapple from place to place by summarizing and de-emphasizing the action. And Justice League, in some respects, does the same "summarizing" for Batman's greatest ability: his sharp, lightning-fast mind.

Now, does *that* make him less believable? I don't think it does. I think it underscores what makes him so damn good.

Does putting him in the same room as Darkseid and Braniac, or having him judo-throw Kalibak, make him less believable? I think so. And (to stray slightly more on-topic), yeah, there's definitely a lack of the psychological drama that made his BTAS/TNBA counterpart so engaging. But I don't think you can have that kind of aspect of Batman on a show that centers on him AND six demigod superheroes AND the demigod villains that are so powerful that it takes six demigod superheroes to stop them.

Showing the microcosm and the macrocosm simultaneously is pretty tough to do, I imagine. People say Batman is still fighting his villains in Gotham while simultaneously helping the Justice League? So why doesn't he just have J'onn or Superman come in every time and kick Bane/Joker/Two-Face's butts back to Arkham? Can you imagine having a JL episode that starts off with a scene like this:

Superman: Vandal Savage is gonna destroy the world!
GL: Batman probably knows how to defuse his bomb.
J'onn: Well, we'll have to make due. Mad Hatter currently has Batman hooked up to some dream machine so he'll stay out of Hatter's life.
GL: Well, let's go free him and throw that psycho back in Arkham.
J'onn: He wouldn't accept it...our kind of help (A Better World reference!)
Superman: Yeah, and if you rescued him you'd ruin the excellent drama of the dream sequence involving him and his parents.
GL: Damn. I guess we'll have to save the world without him.

Anyway, I'm rambling...but I think there may have been a good point or two somewhere in my rambling. Find it and you win a prize :)

[MJC]

No.

The fact is that JL and Batman are different types of shows. It was either put Batman in less realistic settings or not include him in the show at all (and I doubt too many people would be happy with that).

I think it's best not to compare JL to B:TAS or TNBA. They aren't meant to be the same.

[Eddie G.]

I think TNBA kind of fits with JL better, most likely due to how the show intertwined with S:TAS. B:TAS can't even be compared to JL, they're two different shows. Batman was a dark noir style detective story. Justice League is more of a Superhero/Space soap opera and adventure story.

The fact is that Batman stories are different in the comic books in relation to his book and the JLA. I mean in the most recent JL he was fighting mechanic spider like terrorists, while in his title he was beating the crap out of people and going to strip joints

[Alba Aulbath]

I don't necessarily find Justice League ruining who Batman is. And Batman works well with the Justice League. People make think otherwise, because we don't get to go into depth about Batman's mind, what he has to deal with personally, or even a real spotlight.

Why? Because Batman's already had his own show. Twice. And movies. And crossovers. Plus, he's getting another show on Kid's WB. We've seen Batman, and we'll still see more of him. This isn't to say he shouldn't be in JL; I find it a pleasure to always see him on there, how he deals with his teammates and how his relationship with them develops, plus him experiencing new things. Fighting aliens, gods, wizards... you name it. It's just fun.

But because we've seen how Batman thinks, his reasoning, how he works... we don't need to delve too much in Justice League to understand why he chooses to do what he does, his solutions, and ever-excellent detective work. But because we're reasonably new to GL (this version; I know most of us are more familiar with Gay Gardner, Hal Jordan, and Kyle Rayner), Hawkgirl, J'onn, Wonder Woman, and Flash (we saw him once in Superman; not enough to get into a guy's head, if you ask me). So, the way I see it, it's their story. Batman is just there to help them, just as in a Batman cartoon, Alfred is there to help Batman. As for Superman... well, he's a boy scout. What's to know, other than his treatment towards the others?

Without Batman, the Justice League wouldn't feel quite right. Most of them have a strong sense of justice. Batman has to think darker than them to really get the whole picture. Without him, one's got to wonder where the JL would be without him. And the JL doesn't destroy who Batman is; Batman is Batman. Simply put.

[screw on head]

seeing him in this sort of dynamic does take some getting used. i didn't expect to see him with the league when i heard the very early news that the show was a go. seeing him in situations like that of Paradise Lost or Twilight, they were adjustments for me. paradise lost wasn't too weird for me, i could see him fighting off legions of the undead, but seeing an amazon hand him a greek "crown" at the end, recieving an award on the grounds of the mythical themiscyra, that was weird. or seeing him flying thru space with orion and wonderwoman in twilight, or even seeing him on new genesis was strange at first. but i accepted them, don't get me wrong, i wasn't cursing bruce timm's name or screaming at the tv, it was just a moment of "huh, that's different." i can totally sympanthize with the creative team, they have to put him certain situations because the stories sometimes demand it, and i won't skoff at their decisions, i think they've made an overall competent and well concieved interpretation of him in jl.

[Mynd Hed]

The fact is that JL and Batman are different types of shows. It was either put Batman in less realistic settings or not include him in the show at all (and I doubt too many people would be happy with that).

I don't doubt that you're absolutely right, but for the record, I would've been one of the few.


I think it's best not to compare JL to B:TAS or TNBA. They aren't meant to be the same.

In a stylistic sense, you're right of course. But they DO maintain continuity with one another and they ARE ostensibly set in the same universe, so in many important ways, yes, they ARE meant to be the same.

[Karkull]

This is an interesting topic, but sadly I don't have time to respond to it just yet. I'll try and collect my thoughts by tonight, but for now I'll shamelessly plus one of the first revised pages of The Watchtower: a completely overhauled Batman entry, which may shed some light on the topic:

http://jl.toonzone.net/batman/batman.htm

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Does the translation work? Does the same character now seem as realistic as he once was? Does he seem really out of place in the Justice Leagues world?

IMO, Batman doesn't seem any more out of place than he does in the various comic book incarnations of the Justice League, or any time he guest stars in a super-powered hero's comic. If he did, then one might ask whether the 50's and 60's cheesy Batman comics and Adam West make the Denny O'Neill and Frank Miller Batmans of the 70's and 80's out of place.

Besides, there have been several times along the way in JL where Batman's "normalness" has been at least noted (off the top of my head, there's him looking nauseous after exiting a Boom Tube in "Twilight").

-- Ed/Ace

[DianaGohan]

I don't think Justice League ruins the Batman's animated series. Remember, Batman's series revolved with him being in Gotham City and dealing with people there, and besides a few episodes, he didn't venture out of it and save the WORLD (except a couple of times). So of course, when you're dealing with bigger problems on a bigger scale, you're going to need bigger, powerful, and yes even more improbable villians. After all, if the JL only had to Batman villians, where would the fun be in that right? Or the excitement?

[RAINMAN]

I notice they giving him a sense of humor.Which is something he never had before.

[murmur]

This has been a wonderful thread so far. I agree with about 94.7% of what has been said so far. :)
I notice they giving him a sense of humor.Which is something he never had before.Au contraire, monsieur. He has always had a dry, witty, and occaisionally dark sense of humor. It's just been played up a bit for Justice League occaisionally. Perhaps you're thinking of Twilight, where he was infamous for more quips than usual, but then again, they were also playing up the "fish out of water" element for Bats in that episode. I think it's natural that his character would use more humor to mask rare feelings of inadequacy in the face of supernatural threats he cannot handle alone.

[Spidey2099]

To be honest, it struck me off guard when (Hereafter Spoiler) Wonder Woman said that Batman was a reserve member. I do remember them establishing that fact in the pilot episode, but it seems the creative team soon ignored that fact. I mean, he is in practically every episode. If only Nightwing had this much coverage in TNBA... But still, I don't mind Batman being in every episode. And I am glad that the creative team decided to use him for the series, after having to deal with Batman Beyond as the only series in a long time that would have a Batman in it at all.

However...

What would really make Batman's appearances better is if we would get to see how his universe has gradually changed over the years. Granted, Justice League takes place around the time soon after TNBA ended, but there's still some time in between.

-I want it to be established that Nightwing is in Bludhaven.

-I want Catwoman to have her new comic book costume (or maybe a completely new design by Bruce Timm).

-Maybe the appearance of Spoiler, Huntress, and whoever is in the Bat comics nowadays, or heck, even some new characters--to let us know that Gotham still exists and is changing in the JL series.

-And make Gotham's sky red again--I know the creative team has already chosen the "realistic scenery" for their backgrounds, but they managed to change Superman's face slightly, they can get away with the red Gotham sky too.

Things like this don't have to be established in one episode (And I hope they aren't). And new characters like Huntress really don't need any back stories to clutter up the episodes. Just as long as we see how Batman's life has changed in Gotham. Superman should be given a similar treatment (which he is, technically, --A Perfect World Spoiler-- with Luthor becoming president and all.)

But it seems like for the most part, JL: Season Two has given us only cameos from TNBA and STAS as they were portrayed in those series. Which I don't mind, but very little has changed.

[Ordinary Guy]

Of what I've seen I don't think it ruins him.

I just think it's kind of odd seeing him man handle such villians as: Brainiac, Kalibak, and Sinestro.

But it is cool seeing him go up against villians you're not accustomed to seeing him battle: Metallo, Livewire, Darkseid, Lex Luthor, Soloman Grundy etc....

[Jedigreedo]

They have handled Batman well though, such as in Only a dream. That had some BTAS charateristics to it, also Dr. Destiny was more realistic than the usual villains on JL. Batman dealt with stranger things than just telepath/kenetic powers on BTAS.

[RAINMAN]

They have handled Batman well though, such as in Only a dream. That had some BTAS charateristics to it, also Dr. Destiny was more realistic than the usual villains on JL. Batman dealt with stranger things than just telepath/kenetic powers on BTAS.


That reminds me of the ep where he team whit encergen to take on a crazy kid whit mystic powers. Nightwing and wonder women are the only char that ben ruin as far I`m concern.

[Knight]

I feel the Batman / Justice League transition works perfectly. Ive actually always liked seeing Batman interact with others in different environments other than Gotham City so nothing seems wrong to me. Batman has a long history of teaming up with super powered individuals so he doesnt seem out of place as far as im concerned.

[RAINMAN]

Other things I notice.

Bats don`t like to be save yet WW has save his butt many times and he never gave her any trouble about it? IN SS when they all were fighting amoungs themsleve nobody lash out at bats. Even when he made the common about practic not making perfect. By the way I`m not conplanting just pointing stuff out.

[Mr J]

I would have prefered by far a new Batman series, or more TNBA episodes than JL. But since it's there I enjoy it pretty much. I do not consider it at all part of the Batman world though. Like I said in another thread it is to be taken apart from the Batman storyline.
Now about Batman himself, I think they should have kept him away from JL. He has no superpowers, nor fits in the bright shiny world depicted by JL where most of the action happens at day time or in space. Batman belongs to the Gotham night. I have the feeling they just didn't want to leave the character alone after the end of TNBA and wanted to bring him back, due to the extreme popularity of the show. That may also be why we don't see him much in JL.

[Jade_GL]

In my opinion, I think that Batman has been handled very well.

While the original Batman was more nitty gritty and had characters like mobsters and more *realistic* storylines, I still wouldn't leap to calling it anymore believable or realistic than things that have happened in JL.

For instance. Batman has a villain that is made of clay. Not very realistic.

Catwoman was turned into a cat/human hybrid. Not very possible.

In the newer Batman cartoons, he faced magical foes and hung with Jason Blood/The Demon. That's downright JL-y in it's realism.

Batman has his own immortal enemy. Ra's and Vandal should really hang out sometime...

The thing about JL isn't so much what the stories deal with (aliens, immortals, time travel) but in the sheer scope of the action. Batman's stories were much more focused on the tiny details, the action on the normal streets of the city, the interactions between the character and his large supporting cast, evil and good.

JL has to have a humongous scope because it deals with 7 seperate characters, all of which could carry their own well written and produced show (two already have of course). And these characters all have amazing and unique super powers, Batman included with his superior detective skills and intelligence (not a *super power* but it may as well be with how sharp he is in JL). It's almost a given that the stories have to involve alien invasions, gods, time travel and immortel enemies. What else would the JL really have trouble with?

That brings me back to Batman. They have managed to keep what makes Batman, well, Batman. They would be better served, I think, to include him a little less. He is supposed to be, after all, a part time member. Seeing him involved in the stories on earth and not in space would be much more believable for the character. But in all, I think they have kept Batman involved and aven't messed up his character at all, unless you are like me and thin that as a part time member, he should only be there maybe a 1/3 to a 1/4 of the time. :)

That's my take. :D

[90'sCartoonMan]

In the newer Batman cartoons, he faced magical foes and hung with Jason Blood/The Demon. That's downright JL-y in it's realism.

Batman has his own immortal enemy. Ra's and Vandal should really hang out sometime...



Jade reminded me of "Revenant" on Batman Beyond. Terry assumes Bruce doesn't believe in ghosts, but he mentions that he has encountered imortals, goddesses, and witch boys. That's a reference to both BTAS and TNBA. Batman's pretty adaptable. The League shouldn't be showing up in Gotham to stop Rupert Thorne or anything, but Batman wouldn't be Batman if he didn't acknowledge every possible threat to Earth (and thus Gotham), including super villains and magic.
I always assume that when they do Green Lantern episodes like "In Blackest Night" and "Hearts and Minds" that Batman is in Gotham living his life outside the League. Although the two shows are very different, I can still see Batman in both situations

[G. Wen]

Batman's character stays intact in JL: he's still dark, menacing, and a human w/ no superpowers. I haven't seen very much of season 2, but from what I've seen, Batman uses his detective skills against the villians (off the top of my head, defeating Dr. Destiny) so he's still using his strengths. I would like to see less of Batman in JL though; he's a loner and his main proirity is Gotham. He shouldn't be in more than one-third of the episodes, and even in the majority of those eposides, he should be in his cave doing the background detective work. I do not want to see Batman do anything way over the top, like kicking Darseid's butt. That would ruin the character for me.

[punkrockgirl]

Amazing Spidey,

I agree with you COMPLETELY. I have felt this way ever since they started with the whole Justice League thing. I initially accepted Superman in Bats universe once that happened in TNBA, because Superman is iconic and has a long history with Batman in the comic. But, I was hoping it would stop there. However, I had a feeling that once Superman came in, it would open the door to all kinds of outlandish super-powered characters in the Batman world. I think JL is a good cartoon, but making it part of Batman's world diminishes a lot of the twisted, tragic human wreckage we have seen in Batman's universe (IMO). I really like that characters like Man-Bat, Killer Croc or Clayface, while being physically inhuman, have tragic and somewhat scientific explanations for their situations. They are presented more as being victims of a sad deformity rather than a superpower. Batman was always reluctant to accept supernatural explanations for things. In JL, its just taken for granted that super-powered beings and gods exist. Everything now is superpowered villains, gods and other assorted fantasy-type characters. I don't think this works well with Batman. IMO, I like to think of JL and Batman Beyond as outside the BTAS/TNBA continuity. To be honest, I have never considered Batman a superhero, nor have I thought of his enemies as super-villains. They are just people with major issues and, often, tragic pasts who have a very dramatic way of expressing themselves.

PunkRockGirl

[QUOTE=Amazing Spidey]

I'm not here to ask you whether or not Justice League has butuchered Batmans character. I don't think it has, but thats up to you.

I'm here to ask you whether or not you think it has ruined his cartoon. Perhaps ruined is a bad expression, but here me out.

Since Batman: The Animated Series first started, it had a slightly realistic tone to it all. Everyone from the main character, to his supporting cast to his villians, they where all given human characteristics and human traits.

[Zombies8MDingo]

I like the show, I don't really try to analize why since it would take some of the fun away from it and if I didn't like it I'd just forget about it and move on. I like the show and Bats doesn't seem too out of place so that's enough for me.

[justicefan61]

I feel that for the most part, Batman is the central core character in Justice League.. He is the same Batman from his first series ,his current look as in the Batwoman DVD, and Batman beyond (his future). the key being still voiced by Conway and his skills and personality still the same. the Batman in the original justice League of America comics was the same as the Batman of his own book and he was portrayed as a detective and used his gadgets to fight foes and be the brains of the group. This has been done in the cartoon series for the most part. He must interact with his fellow heroes because they belong together as the world's greatest team of superheroes. I still think of Batman and Superman being the "world's finest" teamup. so, no ,I don't at all think Batman is "ruined" because of JL. It just shows a different part of Batman.

[Karkull]

Interesting topic, but I must respectfully disagree that appearing in Justice League has "ruined" Batman, either in terms of his character, his prior series, or his humanity. It's easy to think of Batman in terms of his Year One, fighting gangsters, Gotham exploits; but that completely ignores the rich tapestry that is his history. True, fighting common criminals was his earliest modus operandi, but he's also fought aliens, been in outer space, been involved in reality-altering Crisis events -- but, even know, he still finds time to stop the drug dealer or the crime boss.

In fact, the episode Twilight, while criticized for taking Batman off-world and sticking him in a non-Gotham enviornment, tackled the issue quite well, as he was portrayed as being out of place. True, he was still the same Batman, but the sight of him being carried by Wonder Woman, getting queasy from using the Boom Tube, and nearly getting eaten by a monster was played for laughs, but it also dealt with the absurdity of a street vigilante thrown out in space.

There have been many, many, many different interpretations of The Dark Knight before, and there will be many more after this. This is just another one.