Things that bug me about the current DCAU or Things they could learn from Joss Whedon

[Mister Intensity]

After watching Hereafter and reading some of the responses to it, a lot of things that has been bugging me about how the DCAU is currently being handled has become crystal clear.

One of the things that I enjoyed about TNBA is that there was a sense that time has passed since B:TAS. Although they never went into specifics, with the exception of Old Wounds, the viewer knew that time didn't stand still. Between the two series Robin became Nightwing, Batgirl became Batman's sidekick, Penguin "reformed," Ventriliquist started down the road of rehabilitation, Two-Face became even more ruthless eventually leading to a third persona, etc. While the basics stayed the same, there was an effort to add some changes due to the passage of time.

That's not the case in Justice League. When a character from TNBSA appears, more often than not, its as if no time has passed since their last appearance. While I'm not advocating explaining everything that happened in the interim, an acknowledgement of some type of change in some characters makes sense. A lot of viewers probably haven't even seen TNBSA so introducing a character through reintrodution is not such a bad thing since its the first time the character is being (re)exposed anyway (although whether or not there should be such a reliance on characters from TNBSA is also a valid question). The beginning of Hereafter felt more like a lost episode of S:TAS than a current episode of Justice League.

When a character from the Buffyverse makes a reappearance after a break there is always a sense that time has passed. After a short explanation of what happened since the character last appearance (even if its a line or two), the character is flawlessly entered into the current goings-on of the episode. In a Whedonverse show, there's a sense that what we see is part of a larger universe and we're only seeing glimpses of it.

Another problem, and one of the differences between Seasons One and Two is that Season Two seems to be stuck in TNBSA universe while Season One seems that Justice League takes place in a larger universe yet that larger universe seems more accessible than the insular TNBSA universe of Season Two. Look at the difference between the handling of cameos. Season One brought in established DC Universe characters in small, secondary roles that indicates that the DCAU has endless possiblities (example Kanjar Ro as a space pirate or Deadshot as a paid mercenary), while Season One, almost every cameo, Eclipsed is the notable exception, has previously appeared in TNBSA or Justice League. There's no sense of a larger DCAU where anyone could appear at any time in a variety of roles.

In the Buffyverse, you get a sense that there is a large universe out there and we're only seeing a part of it. One example is The Watcher's Council. For the most part we don't see them, yet every so often we get an update of their activities and a sense that every cataclysmic event that takes place on Buffy and Angle has an affect on the distant Watcher's Council in England. We also get a sense that there's a universe of vampires, demons, ghosts, etc. that has a dynamic that viewers could discover when and if we ever see them. Yet, there's not that sense on Justice League. In Season One we got a sense that Flash, GL, and Hawkgirl had crime fighting careers outside of the League, even though they never went into detail about (nor did they need to) but that's not the case in Season Two, its as if they live in that Watchtower and have no careers outside of it. Why is it that we're told in Season One that Flash has a secret identity, yet in Season Two he does everything in the Flash suit? Why should the possibilities of Superman's replacement be limited to characters that appeared in Justice League or that appearances at the funeral be limited to characters that previously appeared? If there was any justification for random superhero cameos, Superman's funeral was it. Somebody said Nightwing didn't appear because he never met Superman, how do we know if supposedly time has passed between TNBSA and Justice League or that what we see is the sum total of what's currently happenning in the DCAU?

There's a school of thought that says that too big of a universe is too uninviting to potential new viewers. I say that too insular of a universe is too uninviting not
the size of the universe. By overly relying on TNBSA the DCAU has become too insular instead of providing a sense of discovery both to viewers who been with the DCAU from the beginning and to those who are fairly new to it.

Mister Intensity

[maxnugget]

Interesting post. I was kind of thinking about this as well when watching Hereafter, though I didn't quite arrive at as lucid an understanding of what was bugging me as you have in your post.

When watching the funeral, it did occur to me that we were seeing a wide array of characters making cameos, but that the cameos were limited to characters who have previously appeared. This was most obvious to me when they showed Dr. Fate/Aquaman/Inza. Those characters are pretty random, yet they appeared there only because they had just recently appeared in Justice League, and all the other DCU characters that are equally as random did not appear, solely because they had never appeared in the DCAU.

While on one hand it would be somewhat random to include characters that have never appeared in the DCAU, it definitely does make the DCAU seem insular to not include them while including so many random characters that have appeared in the DCAU.

And this example does seem to capture the essence of what could be thought of as a more general attribute of the DCAU shows. JL does lack that feeling that the show takes place in the huge universe of the DC world, where any DC character could appear at any moment and stories don't feel like they're happening in a bubble.

I imagine it is difficult to write the show in a way that gives it that quality of not being insular and existing in the whole DCU all the time. In some cases, like the cameos at the funeral, the problem is easy to realize (which is not to say the solution is obvious), but on a general level, how does one prevent the DCAU from seeming so insular?

Maybe some of the creative team could chime in with their thoughts on this topic? :)

[GL2k2]

Nobody seems to read my post, so I will reiterate what I wrote on the "Hereafter" talkback. It was too soon to make this episode. Not only that, this episode could have been a season finale if handled the right way. Heck they should have by all rights had Doomsday be the one fighting Superman alone in the desert or something. While the other members were busy with this crappy team of villians in Metropolis. The writing was poor on this episode and the plot was contrived and just not well thought out.

I disagree that it doesn't seem time has passed. Although, I'm not sure if you mean from TNBSA to Justice League or from Season 1 to Season 2. If you mean from Season 1 to Season 2 I will agree with you. If you mean from TNBSA, you gotta be kidding me. Flash has become more fleshed out. Aquaman pretty much became a father as well as a husband and less of a threat to the surface world. Dr. Fate, I will agree has not changed. I think they should have mentioned something of his relutance to be a hero again in "The Terror Beyond". Something, that would have hinted to "Hand of Fate" at least in story content aside from just Superman knowing him. But then, Superman knew him in "Hand of Fate" which I didn't particularly like. I don't even like the fact that everyone knows who Hawkgirl is in "Secret Origins" yet, she has no home and Justice League to turn to. What has she been doing, and how long has she been here?

They did try to say time passed since STAS with making Superman older and making the events of "Legacy" known. But how long is unknown and irksome at times. Seeing how the whole John Stewart and Kyle Rayner thing has not been mentioned. And with Sinestro appearing and not mentioning Kyle Rayner something is definitely askew.

[Crinos]

You see, the last thing id like to see is the writers for JL acting more like joss whedon.

Sure, he had the large universe and the sense of passed time. But he also made the characters in his show needlessly miserable for no other reason than to beef up angst, he killed off interesting characters just to move the story along, and turned beloved buffyverse characters into total jerks, insensitive louts, and the supernatural instances of magic addicts. Not to mention that Whedon is an arrogant jerk who likes to belittle his fans because he thinks his show is "hip" and "chic"

Anyone whose seen the last two seasons of buffy would agree, most people tend to agree the series started going downhill when Whedon took a more direct role in writing the series.

so, Writers taking lessons from whedon= BAD BAD idea.

Didnt mean to put you down, just giving my three cents. It isnt you, really. its him.

[Mister Intensity]

When mentioning time I do mean between TNBSA and Justice League. I get the sense that the gap between shows is handled differently in the two seasons of Justice League. While the impact of Legacy was left purposely vague in Season One you do get the sense there's a gap, particularly in regards to Aquaman's appearance. From his appearance you get the sense that things happen between "A Fish Story" and "The Enemy Below," yet in Lois Lane's appearances in Season Two you don't get the sense that her relationship with Superman/Clark has changed since the end of S:TAS. You could say the same thing about any of the villains from S:TAS that appeared with the exception of Lex Luthor and Mercy (and her changes were only made to reinforce the changes in Lex) all of his changes took place on screen in Justice League.

Also, why do characters always have to "meet for the first time"? Sometimes it just makes more sense in the context of the story to just accept that the characters just know a guest star without slowing the story down to explain how they met, especially when the point of the story isn't the meeting (the interactions with Etrigan in his appearances is more interesting because some of the characters know him better than others). The viewer should get a sense that the characters have a rich existance outside of what the viewer sees. The adventures we see should effect the characters but so should the adventures we don't see.

I do think that in Secret Origins, Wonder Woman should have been the "established one" and Hawkgirl "the newbe" especially since they are playing up the mystery of Hawkgirl in Season Two and the fact that viewers have an idea of who Wonder Woman is but are likely to have never heard of Hawkgirl.

What's lost is a sense of discovery of the world of the Justice League. Part of it is meeting characters for the first time with the characters but another part of it is seeing relationships that are established "off-screen" play out for the viewers. It allows us to learn about a guest star but it also allow us to learn about different aspects of characters we already know. Having a character "already there" instead of simply "appearing out of nowhere" gives the character makes the overall universe of the show more "real." It also gives the DCAU less Justice League-centric, as if everything begins and ends with the Justice League.

Mister Intensity

[Drachentöter]

Well, what happened when TNBSA wasn't acknowledged in season one?

People complained.

The excess TNBSA cameos in season two are most likely the result of the creators trying to appease fanboys. Simple as that in my mind, I've learned to accept those terms.

[Mister Intensity]

Honestly, I think one of the problems with Justice League Season Two is the over-compensation of fanboy appeasement.

My reference to Joss Whedon is more about his general approach towards universe building for a television show than the man's personal style and his feelings towards the fans. I was never a part of "Buffy fandom" and while he made some questionable decisions towards the end of Buffy, I do think television writers and viewers could gain something about universe building from him, especially since Buffy and Angel are superhero shows only without the costumes. His shows are proof that you could have a complex universe on television, yet still be accessible to newer viewers.

The goal of a television show is to build viewership while maintaining longtime viewers, yet Justice League Season Two seems to offer more to longtime viewers than to new viewers, especially if the main audience CN seems to be aiming for is Boys 6-11. What longtime wouldn't want to see old S:TAS characters but at the same time wouldn't it have hurt them to add an established, but previously unseen by viewers, foe of Superman as part of the Revenge Squad in Kalibak's place (as a longtime viewer his presense doesn't make sense). Also by opening up the DCAU beyond TNBSA both longtime and new viewers could discover characters at the same time while the fanboys get the added benefit of playing "name that character."

Every episode is always someone's first and that's something that should be kept in mind.

Mister Intensity