TNG/DS9 questions

[DarkAngel]

Was Dukat ever seen in TNG or was DS9's "Emissary" his first appearance? Also, was the Cardassian occupation of Bajor or the Prophets ever mentioned during TNG? I know we saw Cardassians and Bajorans on TNG, but I can't remember how much development they received on TNG.

[fxmatt]

Was Dukat ever seen in TNG or was DS9's "Emissary" his first appearance? Also, was the Cardassian occupation of Bajor or the Prophets ever mentioned during TNG? I know we saw Cardassians and Bajorans on TNG, but I can't remember how much development they received on TNG.


Dukat was never in TNG but the actor who played him, Marc Alaimo, was in a few episodes playing other Cardassians. I'm not sure if the occupation was ever mentioned but I'm pretty sure the Prophets were not.

[Black Dragon]

The Prohpets were never mentioned in TNG. Weren't they "discovered" in one of the early episodes of DS9?

The Cardassian occupation of Bajor was mentioned a couple of times. I know it was mention at least once while Ensign Ro was apart of the crew (TNG).

[sKorpia]

The occupation is also a rather important, if not heavily dwelled upon, plot support for "Lower Decks" when Ensign Sito Jaxa agreed to play hostage to a Cardassian agent working for the Federation and died in the line of duty.

[Mynd Hed]

The Prohpets were never mentioned in TNG. Weren't they "discovered" in one of the early episodes of DS9?

You're right on top of things, Black Dragon-- the Prophets were "discovered" by the Federation (more specifically, by Ben Sisko) in the pilot episode. Of course, in this case we must use the word "discovered" in the same laughable sense that we say that Columbus "discovered" America, since the Bajorans already knew about them for quite a long time before that. I seem to recall a standup comic once saying something to the effect of, "Dude, I don't know if you noticed, Signor Colombo, but there were already a bunch of folks in that America place when you got there. That's like discovering someone's back yard." (-:

The Cardassian occupation of Bajor was mentioned a couple of times. I know it was mention at least once while Ensign Ro was apart of the crew (TNG).

Again, you're absolutely right.

[Good Ol' Batmanuel!]

So now that we know the hows and whys, my question is: how do you people feel about Dukat's character development? I thought he was so great throughout the series, what with the inability to trust the guy no matter how innocent he seemed at times, but I was disappointed by the last episode, I must say. I know he went nuts after his daughter Ziyal was killed, which eventually caused him to become a Bajoran and turn to the Pagh Wraiths. I didn't mind this too much, as it really pushed Kai Winn's character development (and showed how bad she really was!), but I've always wished that this plot would have been resolved earlier and the series could have ended using a different story. Oh well...

[DarkAngel]

how do you people feel about Dukat's character development? I thought he was so great throughout the series, what with the inability to trust the guy no matter how innocent he seemed at times, but I was disappointed by the last episode, I must say.
I think a lot of people were disappointed in various aspects of the final episode. But one episode can't destroy all the great characterization Dukat got in prior episodes. My big problem with the last episode was that the situation in the Fire Cave seemed tacked on. I would have preferred if Dukat had released the Paghwraiths earlier in the episode so that it could have been tied in with what was happening with the war. It would have been great to feel that the alpha quadrant was genuinely in danger from their release. Instead we got a quick defeat of Dukat after the war had already ended.

But I did like the idea of Dukat being involved with the Paghwraiths. His belief in them kind of mirrored Sisko's belief in the Prophets. At the beginning of the series, they both would have seen these beings as simply "wormhole aliens", but by the end, both realized there was something more going on. I saw it as being a battle between the "Emissary of the Prophets" and the "Emissary of the Paghwraiths." It's a good idea, but it was rushed in the closing moments of the episode.

[Squall]

We (the audience) were introduced to the Cardassians and Bejorans at the same time in the TNG episode "The Wounded". The Cardassians would quickly become one of the Federation's greatest threats in future episodes of TNG.

The Maquis were also introduced on TNG, in the episode "Preemtive Strike." Ensign Ro deserted the Enterprise-D crew, and the Federation, to join the Maquis in that episode.

DS9 took the Cardassian/Bejoran storyline and expanded on it (big time) from TNG. From "Emissary" to "What You Leave Behind", the Cardassians and Bejorans play a major role in the series. And, as Captain Sisko once told a few Starfleet Admirals, the stable worm hole in the Bejor system put Bejor on the map -- after the discovery of the stable worm hole there, Bejor went from a minor species to a major player in the Milky Way.

My question has always been this: What did the Enterprise-E do during The Dominion War? We know they had that one mission concerning the Baku and Son'aa ("Insurrection"), but were they ever on the front lines? Or did they just keep on putting out 'one more brush fire' after another during The Dominion War?

[DarkAngel]

My question has always been this: What did the Enterprise-E do during The Dominion War? We know they had that one mission concerning the Baku and Son'aa ("Insurrection"), but were they ever on the front lines? Or did they just keep on putting out 'one more brush fire' after another during The Dominion War?
I would have loved to have gotten some reference to Enterprise's exploits during the war. We didn't get that in the episodes, but there was a four-book series you might want to check out if you haven't already. Two were novelizations of the seven-part arc that began with "A Call to Arms" and ended with "Sacrifice of Angels" and the other two dealt with what the Enterprise was doing during the period.

[Squall]

I remember seeing a book on the shelves at a local comics store showing the Enterprise-E being sent to the Gorn homeworld to try and recruit the Gorn to the Federation/Klingon/Romulan side during The Dominion War. I can also remember hoping that the Enterprise-E would make a guest appearance in DS9's final episode, "What You Leave Behind"... but that didn't happen. :(

[Supernovametalstar]

I used to love DS9. But I haven't seen it in so many years, I've forgotten a lot of stuff that happened. I'm hoping TNN will start airing it soon, since last I heard they had the rights to all the new Trek shows (TNG, DS9, and Voyager). Now that the annoying black bar is gone from the bottom of the screen (and hopefully that bug for Slamball will disappear), I can watch the channel again.

[Squall]

IMO, DS9's last 3 Seasons were some of the best Star Trek ever (up there with Seasons 3-5 of TNG in quality). We had a huge, galactic war between the Federation/Klingons/Romulans vs. the Dominion/Cardassians/Breen -- which led to some awesomely animated melee space battles! (Think of "Return of The Jedi"'s Battle of Endor, the outer space part, with Star Trek ships instead) Also, we got to see the darker side of war, and even the Federation, for the first time in Star Trek history. As icing on the cake, the Federation was wearing the "First Contact TNG Uniforms" I love so much... (they look so much more like 'real' uniforms than any others I've seen Star Trek's costume designers come up with).

I'm getting Seasons 5-7 of DS9 on DVD when they come out, that's for sure! :D

[DarkAngel]

IMO, DS9's last 3 Seasons were some of the best Star Trek ever (up there with Seasons 3-5 of TNG in quality).
Even seasons 3 and 4 were pretty darn good. DS9 was definitely one heck of a series. I'll want to pick it up on DVD at some point, too, though it may not be in the near future. I'd also like to own the Babylon 5 DVDs having heard so many great things about that series. From the episodes I've seen and the descriptions I've read, it's very similar to DS9 in format and content.

[StoicLion]

All:

I'm a big-time fan of TNG and DS9 and feel compelled to reply here.

1> The Cardassians were introduced in the episode "The Wounded," as someone mentioned. Marc Alaimo played Gul Macet, the head spoon-head in the episode. The Bajorans weren't mentioned and neither was the occupation of their world. That came along when Ro was introduced.

Sidebar: Ro was supposed to be the XO of DS9. But, when Michelle Forbes decided against the series, the character was turned into Major Kira Nerys and Nana Visitor got the role (to my relief).

2> Religion and faith were central themes throughout the entire DS9 series, as was the role of family. Most of the characters exhibited some aspect of faith: Kira, Sisko, even the Ferengi. Only the characters who displayed blind, irrational faith were seen as "bad."

3> Spike TV, formerly "TNN", will start showing DS9 either this fall or next year (2004). This will be followed by "Boringer" - I mean, "Voyager" in 2005 or 2006.

4> Whoever said that the final 3 seasons of DS9 rocked, you are WRONG!!! It rocked when Worf after joined the show! ;)

5> Lastly, the ENT-E's missions during the Dominion War has been a matter of contention with fans. There is a book that seeks to answer that question. "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Gorn Crisis" by Wildstorm/DC Comics came out about a year of so ago. It was wonderfully painted and really developed the Gorn. If you could, pick it up.

[Griever]

5> Lastly, the ENT-E's missions during the Dominion War has been a matter of contention with fans. There is a book that seeks to answer that question. "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Gorn Crisis" by Wildstorm/DC Comics came out about a year of so ago. It was wonderfully painted and really developed the Gorn. If you could, pick it up.

Everyone knows that books are not canon. The real reason is that Berman hated DS9 with a passion.

They only used obscure references to mention the war. Nobody on Insurrection acted like they were at war. They didn't seem to give a rats ass.

[Hades]

I'd also like to own the Babylon 5 DVDs having heard so many great things about that series. From the episodes I've seen and the descriptions I've read, it's very similar to DS9 in format and content.

well, B5 and DS9 do share some points but not very many. B5 is superior to DS9 in the area of storytelling and character driven episodes. DS9 really didn't get ambitious with telling a big story till the Dominion showed up. B5 started out with a huge story to tell. the first season of B5 is the worst, but once you get past it, its worth it.

[DarkAngel]

DS9 really didn't get ambitious with telling a big story till the Dominion showed up.
That's not really fair. Unlike JMS, the DS9 writers weren't focussing on only one story. However, there was a "bigger picture" and it began much before season 6 and the start of the Dominion War. If I'm remembering correctly, the Dominion was introduced in the last episode of season 2. So from season 3-7, the writers continued to move things forward in regards to the Dominion and their affect on the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant. There was a "huge story" present, and the DS9 writers did a heck of a job developing it as the seasons passed.

[Squall]

Everyone knows that books are not canon. The real reason is that Berman hated DS9 with a passion.

They only used obscure references to mention the war. Nobody on Insurrection acted like they were at war. They didn't seem to give a rats ass.

Why did Berman hate DS9???

:confused:

And yeah, the way the TNG crew acted in Insurrection did bother me a bit. Also, I watched Nemesis hoping it would have something to do with Sisko's tricking the Romulans into joining the Dominion War on the Federation & Klingons' side. But not one word was said about that...!

Does anyone remember the episode of DS9 where Gul Damar and Weyoun are talking about war updates, and Damar mentions the Son'aa and the ketracel white facilities they operate needing protecting from the Federation? It was a very brief scene, but references like that are cool.

[Griever]

Why did Berman hate DS9???

:confused:




He created that steaming pile called, known to some as, Voyager. Everyone liked DS9 better.

That's probably why Worf's character development from DS9 was thrown out the window in Nemesis.

Remember, casualty lists came in every morning?
This war would have been too intense for the Enterprise not to be involved in.

Earth was attacked by the Breen. (Even though Berman fails to acknowledge it, and pretends like the Xindii attack is original: "Earth's never been at stake." Not in ST:TMP, ST:IV, and FC, or Best of Both Worlds I and II.) :rolleyes:

That's why I'd canonize some of the books regarding the Enterprise during the Dominion War.

[Mynd Hed]

That's probably why Worf's character development from DS9 was thrown out the window in Nemesis.

Actually, I think that's more because EVERYONE'S character development was thrown out the window in Nemesis, due to the same space-time flux distortion that caused Picard's body to become possessed by the ghost of Kirk. (-:

[HellCat]

I would have liked Voyager better if you actually felt that they were alone but that never happened. Somehow Voyager always won and when they didn't they went for the "time restarts" idea so none of the story ever happened.Then they went and brought in 7 of 9, the most fanservice sci-fi character ever.....I much prefer DS9. Nice to see the practically perfect world of ST shaken up with a well handled war.

[Bakasama]

I hated those "time restarts" episodes. While that gave the characters a chance to do something really difference, at the end it didn't happen.

[DarkAngel]

Why did Berman hate DS9???

:confused:
Well, saying he hated DS9 is probably too strong. It would be more accurate to say that he disagreed with the direction in which the show headed. I've heard he clashed with Ira Behr many times over DS9's content, but ultimately, with Berman's time devoted to Voyager, he let Behr have creative control. As much as I've criticised Voyager, I'm glad it was around since it kept Berman's hands off of DS9. In an interview after the show ended, he said that he felt the war should have been wrapped up sooner so that they could have moved on to other stories. Fortunately, he wasn't calling the shots.

Berman just doesn't seem to like story arcs. He obviously prefers stand-alone stories, because that's pretty much all we've seen from Voyager and Enterprise thus far. Braga's gotten a lot of criticism over the years, but I honestly think it's Berman that's kept him on a short leash. Braga seems honestly excited about taking Enterprise in a new direction next season with a story arc, while Berman's saying it's not truly an arc since each episode will still have it's own story. The man is just determined to stick with an episodic format. That's why I fear this Xindi storyline on Enterprise will never live up to its full potential. Berman just won't allow anything truly innovative to happen.