Talkback: JLA -- Just Limping Along?

[Doug Smith]

Cup Of Decaf - JLA: Just Limping Along?

or, What's wrong with the World's Greatest Superheroes?

Is it just me, or is DC's flagship team book, JLA, broken?

And more importantly, has anybody at DC noticed this?

Sure, JLA is still hovering in or near the top ten most months, and is DC's second-biggest title after the revitalized Batman. But, Marvel's two X-Men titles spent most of the 90's as the top books in the comics industry, as fans and pros alike complained about the quality of said books.

Something seems to be missing from JLA - the book is currently lacking that certain something that would make it special, make it a book that people are talking about the way they did when Grant Morrison and Howard Porter revitalized the concept several years ago, after years on life support.

<a href="http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?threadid=79344" target="blank">Continue reading "JLA: Just Limping Along"?</a>

[Jor-El]

Another excellent piece, Doug. A fantastic look at the JLA title and why it's sucking recently. My sentiments exactly. Sending Joe Kelly to a Plastic Man title would be a great idea.

Can't say anything more about this piece; you said it all. I usually think that "you said it all" is a lame cop-out, but this article did it.

Can't wait for next week.

[Karkull]

I disagree. I say that, if anything, Joe Kelly difficulty is following Morrison and Waid's shadow. I have found nothing wrong with the title so far.

Let me hit each of your major comments:

The Obsidian Age was a convoluted mess.

And Rock of Ages wasn't? We were all a little confused by some of the stories that Morrison came up with, but we followed along and figured it out. I don't think that you gave The Obsidian Age enough credit. Joe Kelly was stuck with having to explain what happened to Atlantis, and he managed to find a clever way of doing it. I actually thought that the idea of an Atlantis-era "Justice League" was insanely clever, and I'm surprised that nobody thought of it earlier. Also, he made adjustments to the DC Universe "Atlantis myth," taking into account that the historical Atlantis (the one mentioned by Plato) wasn't an underwater kingdom.

The JLA is bogged down with second-stringers.

Morrison's JLA eventually swelled to fourteen members, including Steel, Huntress, Zauriel, Plastic Man, Oracle, Barda, and Orion. He took an incredible amount of flak for that; Wizard even ran an article condemning him for doing it. Still, he pulled it off, and his choices played well with the big boys. In fact, Plastic Man, originally one of the most hated choices according to fans, became a permanent fixture of the series. Now, Joe Kelly is doing the same thing, bringing in Major Disaster, Faith, The Atom, Firestorm, Green Lantern John Stewart, Manitou Raven, and his wife. Once again, he's being cruxified for it.

Now, what's the problem? Having Martian Manhunter, Kyle Rayner, and Aquaman taking a leave of absence? Blame politics. Aquaman and Rayner are busy in their own books (one's in space, the other's doing God-knows-what). As for J'onzz, he really hasn't left -- his subplot with Scorch is interesting.

Besides, Kelly may have taken heat from DC to introduce John Stewart in order to capitalize on the cartoon (why else redesign him to look just like his animated counterpart?). As for being out-of-character, what are you basing that on? Sure, he's different from the cartoon, but that character is way different from the one in the comics. I've read a few of his appearances in Green Lantern, and he's mellowed a bit since the 1970s. Kelly's trying to find a middle ground here.

As for the other new members, it's often a tactic of writers stuck with characters that can't change much (Superman, Batman, etc - guys who have their own books to do that) to introduce supporting characters that they can play with. Morrison did it in JLA, and he's doing it again in New X-Men with characters like White Queen and Xorn. Give them a chance - last I read they haven't replaced the big guns at all.

Finally, Green Arrow's "horny liberal schtick" was a) in character and b) part of the plot (Faith's telepathic powers were effecting him; it's called foreshadowing).

The Batman/Wonder Woman romantic sub-plot is a bad choice.

What's wrong with a Batman/Wonder Woman romance? It's been played with on the animated series. Besides, it's almost a natural, he's attracted to her ability, intelligence, and resourcefulness; she's attracted to a warrior who has conditioned himself to be better than any demigod. As for any problems with their regular series (where Batman is smooching Catwoman), remember that they don't necessarily have to happen at the same time.

***

I think that Kelly and the creative team is doing a pretty good job. It was a little rocky at first, with each character talking like a hipster, but it's subsided a bit. I think that the Faith subplot is interesting, as is Raven's adjustment to life in the present day. Finally, I think his take on Wonder Woman is the most interesting one yet - it's faithful to her Greek roots, plus (props to Doug Mahnke and Tom Nguyen) she's actually being drawn in a way that (at least to me) doesn't make her look Anglo-Saxon...she looks a little more like she's from Greece (which the new artist on Wonder Woman is adopting).

Give it a little longer. He has a tough act to follow (two tough acts, atcually), but he's rising to the occasion in my eyes. Like with Morrison's original run, it will take some distance for it to all sink in.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Add me to the list of Kelly defenders, although maybe not as vehemently as Karkull. I'd point to Grant Morrison's Fifth Dimension JLA story as a huge, ugly, overlong, incoherent mess that was umpteen gazillion times worse than anything Kelly's come up with so far. The World War III arc came disturbingly close to losing control, too.

I also think thematically, he's tackling the kinds of questions that are worth asking. I also think his current story arc sounds really interesting, especially in light of recent (and unfolding) current events. Talking about the responsible use of power through metaphor is one of the ways current superhero comics can manage to be more than just guys and girls in spandex beating each other up, and I say bravo to Kelly for attempting it with DC's Big Guns.

I do agree that there seems to be a disconnect between where Kelly aims at and where he ends up sometimes, and that his dialogue sometimes crosses this invisible line from witty banter into annoying pseudo-hipness. All things considered, though, I'm still being entertained. I also do think he really suffers in comparison to the Morrison and Waid run.

For the record, I also only buy the trade paperback collections of JLA. I find the continuous nature of the book and the lack of ads makes them read a whole lot better.

Last note is about your coda on "Unstable Molecules." I bought the whole series in single issues hoping it would get better and never felt that it did. The third issue wasn't bad, but the rest of it just seemed to be a bunch of despicable people doing despicable things to each other, and that really isn't my cup of tea.

-- Ed/Ace

[Doug Smith]

Hmmmmmm...valid points guys. Your points on some of Morrison's arcs are well-taken. But for whatever reason, I still found myself looking forward to the next issue, and that's just not happening nowadays.

Something I didn't mention in the original column, and probably should have, is that I feel DC has diluted JLA (the comic) with too many mini series and specials. The book doesn't have as much of a "magical" feel when you've also got various books like "Scary Monsters" and "Age of Wonder" (is that the right title?) on the racks at the same time...and this has been going on for, what, five years now?

Oh, one more quick note...it was Kyle Rayner that I felt was poorly handled, not John Stewart. He just came across like a simpering wimp to me.

[Karkull]

Something I didn't mention in the original column, and probably should have, is that I feel DC has diluted JLA (the comic) with too many mini series and specials. The book doesn't have as much of a "magical" feel when you've also got various books like "Scary Monsters" and "Age of Wonder" (is that the right title?) on the racks at the same time...and this has been going on for, what, five years now?

Heh, no argument there. I wish that they toned that down considerably -- it's becoming the X-Men franchise in a bad way.

As for Kyle Rayner, I've been having a general problem with anyone tackling him in JLA following Morrison's run. Everyone's quick to make Rayner "the rookie," despite the fact that Morrison deftly handled that subplot in his run. As for being wimpy, well...I'd have to re-read the issues, but wasn't a majority of that due to his visions of their deaths?

[Jor-El]

As for Kyle Rayner, I've been having a general problem with anyone tackling him in JLA following Morrison's run. Everyone's quick to make Rayner "the rookie," despite the fact that Morrison deftly handled that subplot in his run. As for being wimpy, well...I'd have to re-read the issues, but wasn't a majority of that due to his visions of their deaths?Here here, Karkull! If Grant Morrison was still in charge, Kyle would be an able, respected hero. But lazy writers (COUGH COUGH JuddWinickandJoeKelly COUGH) like to make Kyle a snivelling little girl because it's easier to write stories around him.

If Grant Morrison and Howard Porter took over the GREEN LANTERN title, I would begin to buy it again.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Something I didn't mention in the original column, and probably should have, is that I feel DC has diluted JLA (the comic) with too many mini series and specials. The book doesn't have as much of a "magical" feel when you've also got various books like "Scary Monsters" and "Age of Wonder" (is that the right title?) on the racks at the same time...and this has been going on for, what, five years now?

As opposed to, say, Batman, who has five or six monthly titles directly involving him? In August, there are SIXTEEN different comics with him or related to him, including all the limited series and animated comics.

None of that holy ton of titles, even the less-than-stellar ones, make something like Batman: Arkham Asylum or the recent Dwayne McDuffie story arc in "Legends of the Dark Knight" bad by themselves. IMO, there are too many franchised comic book heroes that end up in really sub-standard spin-offs, but I consider that a management problem and a problem that there really aren't that many writers out there that can push the old genres in truly new and exciting directions.

I've also heard good things about "JLA: Age of Wonder," but I'm waiting for the TPB.

-- Ed/Ace

[BlackoutCreature]

In my opinion the biggest problem with the JLA is that its Grant Morrison's league, but Grant Morrison isnt writing it. It is the same problem i saw in Marc Waid's run. Joe Kelly, despite the addition of new heroes (and his choices for new heroes r questionable), still seems like he's writing bad Grant Morrison. My suggestion is to give the book to a talented writer, but who has a totally different style from Morrison. And pretty much give him free run to change the direction of the book and the characters as he see's fit. This way your creating a new JLA for a new writer and not trying to recapture Grant Morrisons magic. My suggestion would be Peter David, who i think is a great writer with a different enough style to make JLA work but in a new way.

[Rand]

A lot of you are stepping up to defend Kelly, and that's great. Thing is, though... I'm not dissing the man when I say that what's happening in JLA just doesn't grab me. When Morrison was on JLA, it really rocked the house. Waid... wasn't that great, though whether it was the off that turned me off, or the fact that it wasn't 'as good as' Morrison... that's debatable. But Kelly's run? Though people said good things about Nightwing being in charge of the JLA that sprung up while the big leagues were away... I just couldn't make myself pick up the book. *shrugs*

JLA isn't a title like the X-Men or something, that I'd pick up no matter what. However, it -should- be a title like that. It should be like JSA, which gets rave reviews, a strong following, and 'does everything right.'

[Doug Smith]

Ace, I agree with you 110% about the Batman books. And it's not that the quality of the main series suffers, or that the quality of the spinoffs and minis is poor...it's just that the characters, especially the villains, get so damn overexposed! Personally, I could go a good 2 or 3 years without seeing Ra's Ah Ghul or the Joker again.

And yes, the same is true of the X books (obviously). But, I think DC could look at how Marvel has made a conscious effort to not exploit their main villains (Galactus, Dr. Doom, Magneto) and learn something from it.

I mean, on the one hand, Ra's vs. the Legion is cool...but on the other hand, it comes on the heels of the umpteenth Ra's scheme in the core Bat books, and his appearance in Birds of Prey, and the upcoming Greg Rucka miniseries....

[Doug Smith]

A lot of you are stepping up to defend Kelly, and that's great.

Not only is it great, but it's what I want - debate me! Convince me I'm wrong! :D :D :D

[Jor-El]

Something I didn't mention in the original column, and probably should have, is that I feel DC has diluted JLA (the comic) with too many mini series and specials. The book doesn't have as much of a "magical" feel when you've also got various books like "Scary Monsters" and "Age of Wonder" (is that the right title?) on the racks at the same time...and this has been going on for, what, five years now?I hear Age of Wonder was great from several people, and since this was an Elseworlds series, I don't mind it as much. But your point is INCREDIBLY valid. It was nice when there were only a few JLA related one-shots and minis, but there seems to be more and more and more of them. The precise number, I have calculated, is "too many." I hope that JSA doesn't get that same overexposure. That way, the quality will be better ensured.