A rather interesting irony.

[I.R Joey]

It's interesting that you sometimes get people who make fun of you for enjoying anime. They say stuff like....

"You watch those stupid anime cartoons."
"I hate DBZ and that stuff."

Yet these people will say the next day.
"Wow, I can't wait for the next Matrix, that movie is so cool!!!"

Yet they don't see the irony of that statement. Any explenation as to why they can't put A and B together.

[DarthNuriko]

The people who make fun just don't understand that many anime have the same traits as many of their favorite live action films. There's a guy at work who said he's scared of anime. I'm sure if he saw the right series he'd learn to love some of it.

[Jaguar]

This once again reminds me of my anime-hating girlfriend. She doesn't like anime yet she loves the Ranma 1/2 manga, she went to go see the Matrix Reloaded twice (once, thankfully, with me). That's just strange that she doesn't realize the whole connection, even after I read her an article out loud from Anime Insider where the first sentence said "Andy and Larry [Wachowski] LOVE anime."

[VinceA]

Get used to it... some people just don't like 'cartoons' that don't fit their classic description of 'cartoons' (Disney, Warner Brothers, etc). Trying to point out that the Matrix is anime-inspired doesn't click with them since the The Matrix has real people in it while anime doesn't. The sooner you can deal with the fact that not everyone is destined to be an anime fan, the sooner you can be content that you are one :)

[EscaflownePilot]

Get used to it... some people just don't like 'cartoons' that don't fit their classic description of 'cartoons' (Disney, Warner Brothers, etc). Trying to point out that the Matrix is anime-inspired doesn't click with them since the The Matrix has real people in it while anime doesn't. The sooner you can deal with the fact that not everyone is destined to be an anime fan, the sooner you can be content that you are one :)That's just it - I refuse to deal with the fact that not everyone likes "cartoons" and I won't die happy until everyone sees things my way.

I mean, really, what the hell is it that live-action can do for storytelling that animation can't? Live-action is boring, mundane, and unimaginitive. Animation - not just anime, but all animation - is so much better than live-action can ever be. I just don't understand why people shrug it off - even those that do realize that animation isn't all just for kids. Why the hell is it so hard for people to give animation the same amount of credibility as a legitamit (sp?) form of art and storytelling?

Seriously, what is it?!

I may seem like I'm overexxagerating here, but I'm especially pissed because just last night an incident happened where my brother-in-law was describing some dubbed German movie he saw and how refreshing he thought it was to see something completely different from the typical Hollywood movie. It was at that point I began describing Jin-Roh to the guy, since it was a bit similar to the movie he saw, and was telling him how great that movie was and highly recommended we rent it. He was very interested.... until the second I tell him it's animated, he quickly says, "Oh.. well I don't want to see that, then". (and yet the guy is a Simpsons nut)

Man, that pissed me off!

So really, what the hell is so bad about animation, and what the hell is so appealing about live-action?!?!?

[Amano Ginji]

Meh, my brother is like that too.

He loves the Matrix.
He seems to hate anime just to spite me also. It could be that he actually does hate it, but I doubt that.

What pisses me off even more is when I tell him about something that I think is cool, then I tell him it's animated, he says NO.
He won't even let me talk to him about some of the things I watch just because it's anime.

I really hate people like that.

:mad:

[Zechs]

Screw them people have this preconcived notion that animation is for kids and won't acept anything else as true. So I just iignore them and keep watching anime. If they don't like it then it's their loss. I watch because I like and have rently become fed up with american live action T.V. So animation is what I mostly watch now. If people don't want to open their minds then that's just fine. As long as I like the rest of the people can do whatever they want.

[Maii]

I agree that many people still think that anime and cartoons are only for children. That will notion will plague animation for a long time.

But there is also another reason that I've found as to why people are so reluctant or fearful to enjoy animation as adults: They don't think that they can feel any connection to a character that, in the end, doesn't really exist. Of course, neither do the characters that live-action actors play. If I point that out, these people quickly change the subject. Huh.

Oh well. To each his own, I guess.

[Sora Takenouchi]

I know how some of you feel. My sister loves The Matrix but hates anime with a passion. I told her it was anime-inspired and her response was a condescending "so anime is cool now?". -_-

I haven't bothered telling her of the Animatrix's existence. Wouldn't make a difference, I'm sure of it.

[Ludicris]

Im going to email this topic to alanis morrissette. :p

I dont know how to spell her name.

oh well, continue...

[Matsuo]

Ah yes, the world is full of hypocritical ninnies.

If you whine about it you become a ninny yourself.

Sure, tons of poeple hate anime, even the idea makes them sick. And the best part is people that disagree can't do anything about it. Sure, I'd like to walk into school one day and not have to put up with all the blatant stares comming from my classmates because I'm wearing my "Anta Baka!" T-shirt (homemade of course, it even has Asuka giving you the finger on the back :p ). Then, sighs of exasperation and words like "Oh here comes Matt with his anime porn again... God I hate that stuff." when I walk into homeroom. Sure, people can hate you for liking something that they hate but the realization that they are all a bunch of shallow idiots who don't give anything a second chance can be very a fulfilling prospect.

Atleast it is for me.

[Conekiller]

You know I'm sure these anime haters out there are really into other stuf that downright appalles you. and they have every right to like it and you have every right not to. They can try and try and try to tell you how cool it is, but the fact of the matter is, you WILL NEVER like it and you'd just prefer they left you alone about it. Its the same way with anime haters. just leave them alone

I hate rap "music" and I can't stand to listen to it for any extended period of time. But you know what, EVERYONE at my work loves it and listens to it during work, so I have to put up with it. It still doesn't change my perception of it, it just irritates me more. Anime-haters are the same way, if people just kept bombarding them with Gumdams and Ranmas and Bebops and Sailormoons they'd be irate too.

You have your hang-ups, so do they LIVE WITH IT.

[Shnay]

I mean, really, what the hell is it that live-action can do for storytelling that animation can't? Live-action is boring, mundane, and unimaginitive. Animation - not just anime, but all animation - is so much better than live-action can ever be.

You're serious? Animation will never, ever, be able to capture all of the subtleties of human expression. A good actor will always be better in expressing emotion than a well-animated face. One is reality, one is not.

Now, being a member of Toon Zone, I obviously love animation. There are plenty of things it can do that live-action cannot. But, to say that it is in everyway superior to reality is absurd.


I'd like to walk into school one day and not have to put up with all the blatant stares comming from my classmates because I'm wearing my "Anta Baka!" T-shirt (homemade of course, it even has Asuka giving you the finger on the back).

Maybe, and this is just a thought I had, they're staring because you're wearing a homemade shirt? With a foreign language and a character flippin' the bird on it, no less. Again, just a thought.

Personally, I don't think it's at all hypocritical for people to like The Matrix and not like anime. Sure, many of them probably haven't given anime a chance, but they still know enough about it to see the differences between it and The Matrix.

The Matrix may be "anime inspired" but it's still not an animated movie. If they don't like the style anime is done in, they can still enjoy the live-action fight scenes in The Matrix without being a hypocrite.

I personally don't see the reason so many anime fans feel it's their duty to spread the gospel of anime to every non-fan they see.

[Zechs]

I agree with shnay If you try to force things on non anime fans all they'll see you so is an annoying childish person adn it well make them hate anime even more. So some people don't like anime it's not the end of the world just let them be.

[EscaflownePilot]

You're serious? Animation will never, ever, be able to capture all of the subtleties of human expression. A good actor will always be better in expressing emotion than a well-animated face. One is reality, one is not.I partly agree with you - whether an animated face can express emotions better than a real human can is obviously hard to debate. Of course a human can express "human emotions" better than a replication of a human can - that's pretty much a given, and that's not what I'm debating. I'm talking about the entire experience an animated film can give versus what experience a live-action film can give its audience!

Maybe live-action can express physical expressions of emotion better; maybe it's much more realistic, but that doesn't make for better storytelling! For example, in animation, a good animator can easily express the characters inner and outer emotions much more easily, and much better than live-action can. This creates a much more fleshed out character that's easier to identify with. A good animated film can easily transcend many genres withoout creating an awkward or uneven movie much better than live-action can, and animation can reach the audience on more levels than live-action can. Live-action can't reach into the imagination of the audience nearly as well as live-action ever can!


You know I'm sure these anime haters out there are really into other stuf that downright appalles you. and they have every right to like it and you have every right not to. They can try and try and try to tell you how cool it is, but the fact of the matter is, you WILL NEVER like it and you'd just prefer they left you alone about it. Its the same way with anime haters. just leave them alone

I hate rap "music" and I can't stand to listen to it for any extended period of time. But you know what, EVERYONE at my work loves it and listens to it during work, so I have to put up with it. It still doesn't change my perception of it, it just irritates me more. Anime-haters are the same way, if people just kept bombarding them with Gumdams and Ranmas and Bebops and Sailormoons they'd be irate too.

You have your hang-ups, so do they LIVE WITH IT.There's a really big difference, though.

Rap music is a genre that is a part of a medium of entertainment - music.

I'm sure everyone here agrees that it is impossible to not like music. Do say something like that is stupid - it's like saying you don't like all food! It is, however, quite possible for people to not like a kind of music (like rap), or a kind of food (like celery).

Animation is NOT a genre of anything! It is a medium of entertainment that has MANY genres below it. It, by itself, is not a genre.

I can't necessarily blame people who have only seen one or two cartoons and think everything animated is kids' stuff (although even if they do, they still shouldn't be so quick to judge). But many know well enough that anybody can enjoy animation, yet still choose not to watch it and shrug it off as an ill-legitamet form of storytelling, even when a certain animated movie can be exactly what that person looks for in a good movie. This is just being a pure hypocrite.

And this is why I can't stand it when people refuse to watch animation - it's not something you can hate. You can hate all fighting anime, you can hate all Disney films, you can hate anything that isn't a sports anime like Prince of Tennis, but you simply can't hate animation, and anyone who claims they do is an idiot hypocrite who simply refuses to give animation a chance.

And, for the record, I'm leaving all "anime vs. U.S. animation" out of my post above. My two arguments above apply to all animation, not just anime.

[VinceA]

but you simply can't hate animation, and anyone who claims they do is an idiot hypocrite who simply refuses to give animation a chance.
Replace 'animation' in the quote above with anything you don't like and you'll see that you're going a bit overboard. Passion is a wonderful thing but you can't light the fire in someone else's heart. It has to ignite on its own.

[Amano Ginji]

Passion is a wonderful thing but you can't light the fire in someone else's heart. It has to ignite on its own.

That was beautiful.

:anime:

[Mynd Hed]

C'mon, folks, how many essentially identical "anime haters are stupid" threads do we need? Yes, there are people who don't like anime. Yes, while some of them don't like anime simply because of personal taste, there are others who have an irrational hatred of it for seemingly foolish or hypocritical reasons. But you know what? DEAL WITH IT. You like what you like-- who cares if anybody else likes it?

[Infinity Blade]

You're serious? Animation will never, ever, be able to capture all of the subtleties of human expression. A good actor will always be better in expressing emotion than a well-animated face. One is reality, one is not.

Done right, I fully believe an animated character CAN express emotion just as well as a live-action character. It all depends on the methods taken in the art.

Is this to say that... a character in a book, for instance, cannot express emotion just as well as a live-action actor? As well as a comic book? As well as an animated character? For a book, you cannot techincally SEE the character's expressions. You can read about them, imagine them, but you can't see them in any real way. I personally can't see how that's any worse than a well drawn and animated cartoon character.

It all depends on the methods taken to get to those expressions.

But that is all simply in my opinion.

[saladdays]

I partly agree with you - whether an animated face can express emotions better than a real human can is obviously hard to debate. Of course a human can express "human emotions" better than a replication of a human can - that's pretty much a given, and that's not what I'm debating. I'm talking about the entire experience an animated film can give versus what experience a live-action film can give its audience!

Maybe live-action can express physical expressions of emotion better; maybe it's much more realistic, but that doesn't make for better storytelling! For example, in animation, a good animator can easily express the characters inner and outer emotions much more easily, and much better than live-action can. This creates a much more fleshed out character that's easier to identify with.

I disagree. The only reason animators have it better in some ways is that they control the character. Actors always have some of themselves in each character. Even good actors can stray away from what a director is looking for. However, IMO, you are greatly underestimating the power of a good actor. There are some actors who can do much better than almost any kind of good animation. It's so much more easier to connect with real people.


A good animated film can easily transcend many genres withoout creating an awkward or uneven movie much better than live-action can, and animation can reach the audience on more levels than live-action can. Live-action can't reach into the imagination of the audience nearly as well as live-action ever can!

Why? You are saying this, but aren't really explaining why.


There's a really big difference, though.

Rap music is a genre that is a part of a medium of entertainment - music.

I'm sure everyone here agrees that it is impossible to not like music. Do say something like that is stupid - it's like saying you don't like all food! It is, however, quite possible for people to not like a kind of music (like rap), or a kind of food (like celery).

Animation is NOT a genre of anything! It is a medium of entertainment that has MANY genres below it. It, by itself, is not a genre.

There are a lot of people who don't really care for video games. That's a medium of entertainment, that has many genres below it.


I can't necessarily blame people who have only seen one or two cartoons and think everything animated is kids' stuff (although even if they do, they still shouldn't be so quick to judge). But many know well enough that anybody can enjoy animation, yet still choose not to watch it and shrug it off as an ill-legitamet form of storytelling, even when a certain animated movie can be exactly what that person looks for in a good movie. This is just being a pure hypocrite.

And this is why I can't stand it when people refuse to watch animation - it's not something you can hate. You can hate all fighting anime, you can hate all Disney films, you can hate anything that isn't a sports anime like Prince of Tennis, but you simply can't hate animation, and anyone who claims they do is an idiot hypocrite who simply refuses to give animation a chance.

And, for the record, I'm leaving all "anime vs. U.S. animation" out of my post above. My two arguments above apply to all animation, not just anime.

If someone doesn't like something that isn't live action, who are you to judge that they are hypocritical? If they just can't enjoy something that's animated (no matter if it's in a genre they like), it doesn't matter. The fact that you are so angry about something like this makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Gary L Thompson]

I agree that many people still think that anime and cartoons are only for children. That will notion will plague animation for a long time.

But there is also another reason that I've found as to why people are so reluctant or fearful to enjoy animation as adults: They don't think that they can feel any connection to a character that, in the end, doesn't really exist. Of course, neither do the characters that live-action actors play. If I point that out, these people quickly change the subject. Huh.

Oh well. To each his own, I guess.

Actually, I don't think the notion that animation is only for children is that damaging, in itself. Children's literature in America and worldwide in the 20th Century has been the vehicle for some of the greatest storytelling ever done, and has been at least a billion-dollar industry in this country for some years now.

The difficulty is, the type of storytelling you see in, say, the Wizard of Oz or Where the Red Fern Grows (or even the Babysitter's Club) has very little to do with today's animation, or at least what people's preconceived blinders tell them what animation should be. People basically pigeonhole animation into either sitcom, or adolescent power fantasy (either for farce, like Bugs Bunny, or more seriously with a superhero character like Spiderman, Superman, Space Ghost, He-man, etc.). It is very rare that a Western animation will actually break out of this closed-circle style of storytelling, and attempt to tell an honest-to-goodness saga with a geniune dramatic arc, as with Watership Down or Redwall. Just try comparing PBS's current-day version of Anne of Green Gables with the anime World Masterpiece Theater version--there is no comparison. CBC and Disney have taken tremendous liberties with L.M. Montgomery's storylines in their live-action adaptations, but at least they grasp the notion that they're telling stories, something which the PBS cartoon does not.

If the American viewing audience ever grasps that anime offers far, far more than the action and farce they pigeonhole animation into, I think it could eventually drastically change the type of animated storytelling we see across the board.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

I wonder how many of these anime haters have already or want to see the Animatrix...

[Shnay]

Done right, I fully believe an animated character CAN express emotion just as well as a live-action character. It all depends on the methods taken in the art.

I'd have to disagree, for a few reasons. For starters, there are so many subtleties in expressions that it's impossible to match by even the best animators. Even the Miyazaki's of the world can't duplicate the intensity of the performance of a great actor.

For example, take any famous, well-acted scene in film and imagine it animated. Even with all the time and money in the world, animators would not be able to match the levels of expression that can be produced by someone like Marlon Brando.

Maybe it's because there are so many muscles in the human face, or maybe it's because eyes have an indescribeable depth to them, but human emotions and expressions just can't be matched by animation.


Is this to say that... a character in a book, for instance, cannot express emotion just as well as a live-action actor? ...For a book, you cannot techincally SEE the character's expressions. You can read about them, imagine them, but you can't see them in any real way.

I would argue that this isn't a fair comparisson. Animation and live action have a good deal of similarities; much more than either of them have with books. The writer has many methods available to him to characterize someone, as books are stucturally different from any visual medium that must show everything.

A film can "show" a mountain, but that can't match a poetic description of a mountatin range. A book can describe a scene of dialogue, but it couldn't depict that exchange as well as two good actors could. Each form of art has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Just because one medium can't do everything as well as another, doesn't make it any less valid.

[I.R Joey]

But there are somethings animated movies can do some things live action can do. Can you imagine the opening sequence of the lion King in live action, wouldn't be nearly as impressive Imo. Or coming back to anime could you imagine a live action Escaflowne or other Mecha series. Yes it'd be kinda like a sentai movie, but that's my point it wouldn't be very convincing. Animation makes it so much easier for a person to suspend disbelief.

And I'd disagee with the ascertion that a live action actor, automatically is more relatable then a cartoon charecter. Because it's a cartoon I believe that it can cross more cultural bounds then an actual live action charecter. I mean here we are at an animeboard even though alot of us are Westerners.

[Infinity Blade]

Well, it's just all in my opinion.
If something animated can get to me emotionally just as well as a live-action movie, and that has happened several times, then I'll look at it the way I do.
Someone else may disagree with this, but that's all in their opinion. How well a cartoon can emote in comparison to a real person is just a matter of how one views things. No one can really win that debate.

As well, I should have made my book comment clearer... One of the resaons I brought it up was meant in repsonse to the comment that some people may not be able to take a cartoon as seriously because, "they don't exist". That was my mistake. Sorry.

[Shnay]

But there are somethings animated movies can do some things live action can do.

No argument here. As I said, each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each can do some truly amazing things.


Well, it's just all in my opinion.
If something animated can get to me emotionally just as well as a live-action movie, and that has happened several times, then I'll look at it the way I do.
Someone else may disagree with this, but that's all in their opinion. How well a cartoon can emote in comparison to a real person is just a matter of how one views things. No one can really win that debate.

I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion, I'm just discussing some of the points you brought up. :)

I would agree that animated works can touch people emotionally just as much as live action works can. I'd imagine that everyone here at Toon Zone has been moved by something animated at one time or another. My main point was not that animation can't communicate something emotional, but that animation (as far as characters go) just can't match the subtleties of a real human in terms of performance. But just because an animated characters tears aren't photo-realistic, doesn't mean that the moment is any less emotional.

Finally, while I disagree, I can see the point non-animation fans make about the characters not being "real." Neither are any characters in works of fiction, but they don't seem to see it that way, and I can understand that.

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

My main point was not that animation can't communicate something emotional, but that animation (as far as characters go) just can't match the subtleties of a real human in terms of performance..

Oh, really? Then why is it that pretty much everyone involved with 'Grave of the Fireflies' agreed that no live children could have ever managed to accurately portray Seita and Setsuko's struggles like the animated version did? I'd hardly say that's human subtleties over animated.

[surforst]

Oh, really? Then why is it that pretty much everyone involved with 'Grave of the Fireflies' agreed that no live children could have ever managed to accurately portray Seita and Setsuko's struggles like the animated version did? I'd hardly say that's human subtleties over animated.

Cause they would be out of a job otherwise. You don't go and say your works sucks and it could have been done better. Its just not good for business.

All I know is anime is I don't personally like anime.....

Now that jk is out of the way its a tired out debate bewteen people. "O anime is for kids" and "live action can never be a good as anime". Doesn't matter how often you bring it up it won't change things. Only way to solve the problem is to kidnap them late at night and force them to watch the show (whatever it may be) until they finally start liking anime. Or give em a shock ever time they say something bad about it. Stop being nice and you'll get better results people. :D

[Mynd Hed]

And I'd disagee with the ascertion that a live action actor, automatically is more relatable then a cartoon charecter.

Well, naturally just being live action isn't going to AUTOMATICALLY make a character more relatable. A horrible actor (say, a Keanu Reeves or a Jack Black [no offense to the guy, he's a great comedian, just not a good actor]) isn't going to be as easy to relate to as a really good anime character. Of course the best that anime has to offer is going to beat the worst live action has to offer. But I'd contend that the best live action has to offer will beat the best anime has to offer in the area of character. Of course anime has other advantages over live action, which plenty of people have already pointed out.

[The_Dominion]

Animation is about telling a story that can not be told easily through any other metod. As Human beings people generally can care for anything they spend time with. When we see a character act in a movie or amimation film, we begin to care for the character real or not. That is human nature. That is why we can care for dolls, cars, and other inaminate objects with respect, and as if they have something they do not.

This giving of something is not is what is left up to the viewer of a movie, whether it be real or animated, to put the pieces together and feel real emotion, in a fake setting.

As for which one can do it better, is only up to personnal preference, because ultimately it is what you are willing to feel. Also Japanese Anime is more particular in building emotion than in any other American cartoon I can think off of hand. They build up their characters to have more human qualitys, even in the inhuman characters.

I believe I can show you just how:

If one had to die, and never come back into their respective shows, which one would you rather die? Fry from Futurama, or Kenshin, from Rurouni Kenshin?

Well the fact you are in this forum, and assuming you like Rurouni Kenshin in the least bit, and have seen Futurama, that you would for the most part go for Kenshin.

I believe this is because that particularily Kenshin can bring out more of human emotion, than Fry can with his comedic attitudes.

[Shnay]

Oh, really? Then why is it that pretty much everyone involved with 'Grave of the Fireflies' agreed that no live children could have ever managed to accurately portray Seita and Setsuko's struggles like the animated version did? I'd hardly say that's human subtleties over animated.

Because most kids are terrible actors. I don't think you can find an example using an adult character that shows more emotion than a good live action actor could.

Yet again, I'm not saying either one is good or bad. Each have advantages, disadvantages, blah, blah, blah....

[Conan-san]

**This comes form watching Volume 1 of excell saga all the way though***

*In falsetso Voice** These "Anime haters" are impure Beings! Thefore I shall send my most trusted agent to Dispose of them and as this is going to take it's time I shall fast foreword using the power of breaking the 4th wall

**Scenes of Excel being the snot out of anime naytsayers and VIce versa, other misalainous crap, The great will reseting everything once Excell Pops it Yada yadya yada.*****

you get the point.

12 rating my butt. since when did 12 rated films have Moaning sexual endeno.

[surforst]

**This comes form watching Volume 1 of excell saga all the way though***

*In falsetso Voice** These "Anime haters" are impure Beings! Thefore I shall send my most trusted agent to Dispose of them and as this is going to take it's time I shall fast foreword using the power of breaking the 4th wall

**Scenes of Excel being the snot out of anime naytsayers and VIce versa, other misalainous crap, The great will reseting everything once Excell Pops it Yada yadya yada.*****

you get the point.

12 rating my butt. since when did 12 rated films have Moaning sexual endeno.

Nice just one more reason for me to watch Excel. Whats up with the 12 ratting though? Maybe your talking about PG-13 I guess :shrug: Well its a fact of life now that ratings are either too high or too low depending on who they want to sell the movie to. Just accept it and don't let any of your kids see a movie. Even "Finding Nemo" is about satantic views. Talking fish..come on you can not be more obvious if you try.

[Zechs]

IMO both are good it depends on the plot and characters. A good show will pull you into their world and make you feel for the weither it be live action or animated. As fro expresson most animation can't compare to live action but with the right atomshere tore and use of emotion anime can beat live action in some cases. It all depends on how it's done. If a live actor hows emotio it's no good if it not used right. Same with anime. Thus if an anime uses an emotin right it cae be great. My point facila featurs is only part of it if you look at the whole bothe are pretty evenly matched.

[Conekiller]

12 rating my butt. since when did 12 rated films have Moaning sexual endeno.

Excel Saga is rated 17+ not 12

[Conan-san]

Excel Saga is rated 17+ not 12
In the uk, the BBFC (Who are nutorious for kicking anime around like a dog) gave Excel Saga a 12 rating. Metropolis got a PG if anyone's wondering.