Bruce Wayne & WayneTech

[James Harvey]

I wonder what would've happened if we got to see more of Bruce Wayne and WayneTech. I know we would've actually seen this addressed in a 4th season, but what do you think we would've seen. Maybe Bruce trying to clean up Gotham via his business? Rubbing out any influence that Paxton had in the company? Comments?

[Vin]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
I wonder what would've happened if we got to see more of Bruce Wayne and WayneTech. I know we would've actually seen this addressed in a 4th season, but what do you think we would've seen. Maybe Bruce trying to clean up Gotham via his business? Rubbing out any influence that Paxton had in the company? Comments?

I'm sure Wayne would want to get rid of any connection between his company and Paxton. I've always though of Terry eventually taking over the company and maybe we would have seen that in the end of the 4th season.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Vince
I've always though of Terry eventually taking over the company and maybe we would have seen that in the end of the 4th season.

Hmmm. I really can't see that. He's a smart kid but he's in high school (college freshman, tops, at the end of a 4th season) and running a multi-billion dollar company ain't in the cards.

My hunch would be that Wayne would have started arranging things so Terry could continue after his death. Since he can't hand his fortune and power over to a 19 year old (at least, without sparking all kinds of scrutiny, from shareholder lawsuits to gossip columnists) he would need to put someone in charge of the company he could trust to keep Terry bankrolled and supported afterward (while Terry learned the ropes of the post-school world).

Only Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson would be in a position to do that. Gordon is a civic leader who would be plausible as a corporate figure; we don't know what happened to Dick, but it would certainly be possible to write an interesting arc that would (a) tell us his story; (b) make a reconciliation with Wayne possible; and (c) give him a development that would explain how he could step into the picture.

[DR. BELCH]

--Lucius Fox, Jr.? We know he had his own company, which Derek Powers bought and crushed. Bruce might find it fitting to have the son of his right-hand man (presumably the senior Fox has retired/passed on by Beyond time) run WayneTech for a decade or so until Terry is ready. Babs seems happy as police comissioner, and running a multibillion-dollar company might be a conflict of interest (I would think her marriage to a district attourney would already be one...maybe not...but it's always niggled at me somehow). As for Dick...he's not really the corporate type, is he? Unless he's changed dramatically over the years, maybe mellowed and even married/had kids.

[James Harvey]

I would've love to have seen Lucius Fox Jr. pop in, or maybe even a cameo from Lucius Fox himself. He is around Bruce's age in the cartoon so I think it could be doable. I always find him to be a nice counterpoint to Bruce. When Fox Jr. when mentioned way back in BLACK OUT, I was half expecting a cameo.

[Vin]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


Hmmm. I really can't see that. He's a smart kid but he's in high school (college freshman, tops, at the end of a 4th season) and running a multi-billion dollar company ain't in the cards.

My hunch would be that Wayne would have started arranging things so Terry could continue after his death. Since he can't hand his fortune and power over to a 19 year old (at least, without sparking all kinds of scrutiny, from shareholder lawsuits to gossip columnists) he would need to put someone in charge of the company he could trust to keep Terry bankrolled and supported afterward (while Terry learned the ropes of the post-school world).

Only Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson would be in a position to do that. Gordon is a civic leader who would be plausible as a corporate figure; we don't know what happened to Dick, but it would certainly be possible to write an interesting arc that would (a) tell us his story; (b) make a reconciliation with Wayne possible; and (c) give him a development that would explain how he could step into the picture.

Well, I had meant Terry would take over the company 10 years or so later, but at then end of the fourth season, when he was much older. In other words, the end of the fourth season would forward to a later future, where Terry has taken over the company. Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

[James Harvey]

A flash forward episode would be very cool. It was something I wish BTAS would've done sometime. I think it would've been very appropriate with BATMAN BEYOND. We could also have been given small little hints about stuff. Are Terry and Dana still togethor. How important is Max now, etc...

[The Old Maid]

Well, first I have to mention that I do like all the characters I'm going to mention. But --

I'll let Tim Drake off the hook. He already has a corporation to run. Besides, even at this late date, he's in poor shape to take on more responsibility.

Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon and Sam Young have done less than nothing to deserve any share of Wayne's company. If these characters had done any actual work, then Derek Powers would have gone to prison long before this series aired. In other words, Warren McGinnis would not have died.

The other characters care about taking care of their OWN business. No one even checked to see if Bruce was dead or alive ; should he give them all his money? Why?

For reasons that are too involved to go into here (matters of personal worth, personal honor), I believe Terry has earned the right to guide Wayne Enterprises into the future. In fact he's the only one who has.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Vince
Well, I had meant Terry would take over the company 10 years or so later, but at then end of the fourth season, when he was much older. In other words, the end of the fourth season would forward to a later future, where Terry has taken over the company. Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

Oh, I see. Then I absolutely agree with you. Ultimately Terry should be the one with the reins in his hands, but since I have always wanted Terry to have more character development, I'd prefer that the show not gloss over his future history by simply leaping ahead.


Originally posted by The Old Maid
I'll let Tim Drake off the hook. He already has a corporation to run. Besides, even at this late date, he's in poor shape to take on more responsibility.

Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon and Sam Young have done less than nothing to deserve any share of Wayne's company. If these characters had done any actual work, then Derek Powers would have gone to prison long before this series aired. In other words, Warren McGinnis would not have died.

Does Drake run his own company? I had the impression he was a hired engineer (certainly that's a modest apartment he and his wife live in).

The other observations, I must say, are awfully harsh. Gotham has never been easy to police; by the above standards, Jim Gordon doesn't deserve any consideration because everyone from the Joker to Rupert Thorne to the sleazy councilmen of "Judgement Day" and MOTP ran rampant on his watch. Sam, Babs and Dick are working as hard as they can at a near-impossible job.

Anyway, I should have made clear that Wayne's fortune would NOT be going to them directly, they would be the executives overseeing the foundation that would control his wealth.

[Nightwing]

I love the ideas pitched so far, and my personal favorite being that of getting Lucius Fox Jr. into the mix. That would be perfect. But, I don't see what the rush is on getting Terry grown up so quickly. I think the time frame should be stretched a little more.



Originally posted by The Old Maid
Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon and Sam Young have done less than nothing to deserve any share of Wayne's company. If these characters had done any actual work, then Derek Powers would have gone to prison long before this series aired. In other words, Warren McGinnis would not have died.

I'm not sure I'm completely in agreement. The fault in Bruce's company going down the tubes was purely his own. Bruce stopped caring for various yet similar reasons (stopped being Batman, very bitter and cynical, Paxton wanted to take over... so many one could argue). I didn't know Sam Young had any connections with Bruce, even though he's married to Barbara. And I could sort of understand Barbara not doing anything, because of her and Bruce's shakey past. I'm not saying it's morally right, I'm just saying I understand why she might not have stepped in at all. And I can also understand why Dick might not have even been monitoring Bruce's life and company except for reasons 50 times that of Barbara's.

But back on topic, I think the only person suitable to take over Bruce's company is Lucius Fox Jr. If he's half as smart and hard working as his dad, he'll do just as well as Bruce did in his time if not better. [/color]

[The Old Maid]

I don't see how Terry is so incredibly inferior to Wayne's other partners. It's not as though they have an overwhelming advantage and Terry can never catch up. Any candidate would need to be trained. So why not train the right one, right from the start?

Also, Wayne stated plainly in "ROTJ" that he intends to run the company himself and will never "hand it over" again. Barring mischief Terry has enough time to learn.

Running Wayne Enterprises is surely not like running a franchise in a fast-food chain, where the formula for success is predetermined and simple. W/E is a major multinational corporation. Millions of people depend upon it every day. This includes both employees and retirees. It includes pensioners who never worked for the company but have W/E stock in their funds. It includes patients who need its medicines to stay alive. Of course the company will shrink after Wayne removes its weapons division ("Armory"). But it will still be a global powerhouse. Its headquarters alone constitutes a small city ; and the company probably wields political and economic clout approaching the level of, say, Ford Motors.

Donald Trump should never coach the women's Olympic skating program nor Dorothy Hamill become CEO of Trump Casinos and Resorts ; they're not suited to those positions. And the fact that they have certain qualities in common -- both are charismatic and competitive -- does not change that. It's the same for fictional characters.

Wayne would be irresponsible to hand over his company to any other sidekick, who would have to :

a. change careers
b. to a career they already rejected when younger
c. and for which they lack training
d. so they'd have to go back to school
e. to do a favor for someone they don't like.

If I had stock in such a company I'd sell. That's bad business.

So again, this leaves only Lucius Jr. and Terry. Terry needs only to :

a. get out of high school (something he should have done in the first season, please!)
b. go to college
c. and keep learning until Wayne says, "This is my choice."

There are three assumptions underlying the anyone-but-Terry votes. One is that being older than Terry equals being better than Terry. That is untrue. Two is that Wayne owes his older partners. No one owes a healthy adult any inheritance. I doubt Wayne would cut them out of his will ; but the company is special. It should only go to the candidate who will do right by it.

That leads to the third assumption : that whoever succeeds Wayne can always hire Lucius back. Personally I'd like to see him. But I question whether he'd choose to return. He has his own company now ("Black out"). He might not sell, not even for the promise of running the combined company. After all, he did run it before. If Wayne couldn't protect him from corporate raiders once, who is to say it won't happen twice? (I'm guessing the real reason Powers took over the company is that Wayne was too nice to adopt a "poison pill" plan against takeovers.) Finally, let's remember that Bruce Wayne knew how to run his company BEFORE he hired another to lighten his load.

Whether Jim or Barbara is the better Commissioner is really a discussion for its own thread. Certainly Barbara thinks she's better, which is not the same thing. She's also managed to imprint her opinion on a number of viewers. But what does "Beyond" actually show us? That the company means nothing to anyone except Wayne and Terry.

Before Hill High surpassed it in Season Two, Wayne/Powers was the largest cesspool in Gotham City. Yet you'll never find our other lawmen (Sam, Barbara, Dick or Tim) going near the place. Terry didn't buy the idea that if people get killed on W/P property, it's a private affair, and I don't either.

A long time ago a new poster asked, "Where are Dick and Tim?" I blithely assured the newbie that they were probably all dead. (Reaction, much sadness. Well, I agree.) I didn't WANT them dead. To me it was the only way the series could make sense. If they were alive, where were they?

Dick had to die because his Nightwing costume was in the Batcave's trophy room. Dick claimed he lost everything to the Batman, The Nightwing persona was the one thing he had that was truly his own. He'd BURN that costume before he'd ever give it to Bruce. As for Tim, no one mentioned him, which makes sense (the death of a child is usually harder to talk about than that of an adult). Now "ROTJ" comes along and, lo and behold, they're all alive. So I was wrong. I'm pleased about that. But the way the characters were handled makes them look bad.

If the Robins cared about Wayne, they should have checked on him to make sure he's okay. If they hated him, they should have warned Terry about the Siren luring him to his death. Their absense shows a lack of regard for Terry's safety as well as Bruce's.

Barbara urges Terry to stop, but quite often it's about her concern for her reputation just as much as any regard for Terry. She sees Batman's return as a slam against the way she's doing her job. I think if Barbara was not the Commish, and therefore forced to associate with Terry, she wouldn't go out of her way to find him and talk him out of it.

Old Man Wayne is almost murdered in "Shriek." No one comes to see him. No Robins. Neither Barbara nor her cops bother to interview Wayne to get a description of his attacker. I'm curious as to how the police proposed to find the guy without it. There are other examples in other episodes, but this was the most brazen. Where are the sidekicks? Yes, Bruce isn't a lovable person, but at times like this, neither are they.

In contrast, Terry not only goes after the foe (both of them), he insists that he can handle Wayne's business affairs until his boss is better. Perhaps Wayne has indeed been coaching him. Perhaps Terry is bluffing. Either way, what Terry shows is that he is WILLING to step up to the plate. He doesn't have to be drafted. He is extremely motivated -- not just because most of Batman's first foes had ties to the company, but out of personal concern for the old man.

I'm not the first poster on this site to ask where the sidekicks have been all this time, and to question their motives. Nor am I the second, nor even the third. I am, however, the only one to be dressed down for saying it. I didn't write the scripts. This is what the characters really did. Also, I know I mentioned that I like the characters. But I don't accept that this means they can do no wrong. I'm not annoyed, just puzzled. Maybe pro-Terry is seen as anti-anyone-else. Of course the other sidekicks are sentimental favorites. But that's bad business.

[Maxie Zeus]

Ah, perhaps this is where the disagreement lies: I'm assuming (and I think others are assuming too) that Bruce's exit will be sooner rather than later.

How old would Terry have to be before he could reasonably be expected to take over WE? Well, Bruce ran it in his early 30s, but that was because he inherited it as a family enterprise, and it was made clear that the day-to-day running was in the hands of Lucius Fox. Even if we give Terry the benefit of every doubt, he would have to be at least 30 or 35 before he could take over the company. That's 12 to 17 years in the future. Is Wayne going to last that long?

It's a possibility. Wayne looks to be about 70, and with advances in medicine and life-expectancy, he might stick around for another 25 years. But he is also clearly in ill health, and if he takes his company and the Bat-franchise so seriously he shouldn't stake all on his remaining alert, vigorous and alive until Terry takes the reins.

Even then, I'm not convinced it would be a good idea to turn the company over to a 30 year-old protege. Look again at how Wayne came into the company: (1) He inherited it from his natural father. (2) Presumably the administration of the company was placed in the care of a professional management group at the time of his parents' death; I'd bet Fox Sr. was a part of that group. Thus, there was no question about Wayne taking ultimate control of WE, and there wasis already a management team in place to run the company until that day arrived.

But the situation with Terry is entirely different.

(1) Terry is only a protege (and practically a live-in one at that). A billionaire leaves his entire fortune to the adolescent kid who's always performing odd "jobs" for him at night: I can't think of a situation that would excite more scrutiny, from the IRS to the National Enquirer, than that. Wayne would be a fool, IMO, to tempt it.

(2) There is no management team in place to mentor Terry in case Wayne dies; Wayne is it.

Put these two together, and it seems hard to imagine Wayne being able to simply hand over WE along with the Batman identity to Terry. It has nothing to do with Terry's natural abilities, only with the external circumstances.

It was with an eye toward the overall situation that I had tried sketching one possible story-line. My diagnosis: Ideally, Wayne would like to hand things over to Terry, but that is too difficult to do in an overt fashion. Solution: Place all his assets in a trust, from which the Batman program can be supported and subsidized.

Now, who will oversee this trust, and the company that finances it? Again, ideally it would be Terry, and Wayne would certainly try first to act directly as mentor to Terry, so that when Wayne died Terry could step in as director of both the company and the trust that controls it.

But he needs a back-up plan, in case he (Wayne) doesn't survive. The solution: In case of his untimely death, control of the trust passes to Barbara Gordon and/or Dick Grayson. Gordon is qualified to hold an executive position as head of the trust and as chair of WE, in virtue of her experience as the head of a major bureaucracy (the police force). After all, lots of government administrators move into the corporate world and vice versa, and don't need day-to-day experience in the new field, because the qualities wanted in a high executive position are ones of leadership and the ability to delegate. Grayson we know nothing about in BB time, but it wouldn't be hard to invent a backstory that would make him a likely trustee, and would have the advantage of bringing him back into the Batman universe.

The motive for placing the trusteeship with these two is simple: They are sufficiently qualified, and have a sufficient history with Wayne, so that they could take over on short notice without raising any eyebrows. More important, being privy to the secret of Batman they would be able to act as mentor to Terry (as per Wayne's ultimate intentions) in both the Batman and corporate worlds. They would take over the job of training and grooming him to become the ultimate trustee and overseer of WE, while they also prepared a team to run WE day-to-day for Terry the same way that Fox Sr. ran it for Bruce back in the day. Certainly Fox Jr. could be part of such a team, but that wouldn't be necessary.

I don't think our solutions are that different in end, only in means. I'm only proposing a set of tactics that I think would work best toward the same ultimate end: Terry as both Batman and chieftan of WE.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
There are three assumptions underlying the anyone-but-Terry votes. One is that being older than Terry equals being better than Terry. That is untrue. Two is that Wayne owes his older partners. No one owes a healthy adult any inheritance. I doubt Wayne would cut them out of his will ; but the company is special. It should only go to the candidate who will do right by it.

[snip]

I'm not the first poster on this site to ask where the sidekicks have been all this time, and to question their motives. Nor am I the second, nor even the third. I am, however, the only one to be dressed down for saying it. I didn't write the scripts. This is what the characters really did. Also, I know I mentioned that I like the characters. But I don't accept that this means they can do no wrong. I'm not annoyed, just puzzled. Maybe pro-Terry is seen as anti-anyone-else. Of course the other sidekicks are sentimental favorites. But that's bad business.

You added this part while I was composing my reply above. I'll make just a few observations:

First, as I hope my above reply makes clear, I don't base my sketch on the same assumptions conjectured about here. I hope this part of the disagreement vanishes.

Second, on the sidekicks: As always, you're very perceptive and persuasive about the characters. But I don't think these reflections necessarily rule out the kind of scenario I sketched; they only make it harder to bring about, and thus (hehe) more interesting story-wise, if handled well.

That's because the characters in BTAS and BB still have the potential for dynamic change. We see that in ROTJ when Tim and Bruce are reconciled, and Tim praises Terry as Bruce's choice as a successor. Simply put, there is always the chance for a similar reconciliation with Gordon and Grayson. Already there are signs that Gordon has grudgingly accepted the new situation. As you rightly point out, her concerns are mostly now with how Batman's activities will impact her job, which suggests that she is willing to tolerate Batman's return, in practice and perhaps in principle, so long as she maintains her independence, integrity, and ability.

[The Old Maid]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Look again at how Wayne came into the company: (1) He inherited it from his natural father.

I've proposed from the series' beginning that Wayne should adopt Terry. Not merely to settle the money question, though this would simplify it. It would, IMHO, do the most to explore these characters. Would Terry's natural family or the Robins spontaneously combust, for extra credit.

Remember that Terry had already established an emotional connection with Wayne before the latter offered him the job.



(2) Presumably the administration of the company was placed in the care of a professional management group at the time of his parents' death; I'd bet Fox Sr. was a part of that group .... There is no management team in place to mentor Terry in case Wayne dies ; Wayne is it.

Unless Wayne's task is harder that Diogenes', that was the first thing he did. It's been taken care of. I'd say six months, tops.



Terry is only a protege (and practically a live-in one at that). A billionaire leaves his entire fortune to the adolescent kid who's always performing odd "jobs" for him at night: I can't think of a situation that would excite more scrutiny, from the IRS to the National Enquirer, than that.

I can.

The series claims that Barbara left Dick for Bruce. Too Woody, Mia and Soon-Yi for me. Echh. Out of the blue, Wayne lavishes upon his ex-girlfriend control over a major multinational corporation (or the cash value thereof). The tabloids will assume the love affair is on again. There's no other plausible explanation. The character has no qualifications ... except that she's an ex-girlfriend. I wonder how long Sam Young's career, or his marriage, will last in a situation like that. Also, this could prompt a government probe. There are laws on the books to protect investors from this type of action. It's too close to liquidation maneuvers.

Wayne has always presented Terry as his assistant. Only the audience knows just what that means. Regrettably, the audience also knows something that Terry can never use in public as leverage : he has spent the past three years rooting out corruption in Wayne/Powers, while Barbara has done, er, nothing. Terry is indeed more familiar with the company.



The solution: In case of [Wayne's] untimely death, control passes to Barbara Gordon and/or Dick Grayson. Gordon is qualified to hold an executive position as head of the trust and as chair of WE, in virtue of her experience as the head of a major bureaucracy (the police force). After all, lots of government administrators move into the corporate world and vice versa, and don't need day-to-day experience in the new field, because the qualities wanted in a high executive position are ones of leadership and the ability to delegate. Grayson we know nothing about in BB time, but it wouldn't be hard to invent a backstory that would make him a likely trustee.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. I think there is some confusion over the job Terry will train for (CEO) and the one that actually needs to be filled. In the past Bubblehead Bruce was CEO ; now it's Old Man Wayne ; in the future it will be Terry. Terry wouldn't need day-to-day experience because the qualities HE must have are leadership and ability to delegate. So in that sense, you're right -- anyone can walk in off the street and do the CEO's job. That's not the vacancy to be filled.

Lucius Sr. was the CFO. And for that, Barbara, Dick, and even Terry will always be unqualified unless they specifically study for it. So I'm afraid this is a point I will always disagree on. Business is not a fallback career. Familiarity with one type of administration does not lead to familiarity, let alone acceptance, in another. (Ask Ross Perot and General Stockwell ...) The CFO position is a specialty. Too specialized for any of Wayne's partners.



More important, being privy to the secret of Batman they would be able to act as mentor to Terry (as per Wayne's ultimate intentions) in both the Batman and corporate worlds. They would take over the job of training and grooming him to become the ultimate trustee and overseer of WE, while they also prepared a team to run WE day-to-day for Terry the same way that Fox Sr. ran it for Bruce back in the day.

Why should they? For Barbara we have enough problems : one, when she's looking Batman's way, she's usually looking down. Certainly she's toned it down a bit. But that I-know-best attitude might return when Wayne's not around anymore. Also, as a policewoman Barbara might see Wayne's anti-gun stance as old-fashioned. In other words, she no longer shares his vision. So she can't really pass on all his values to Terry.

The idea that Dick should put his own plans aside to hold Terry's hand would strike Nightwing as same-old-Bruce. The rumor from management is that Nightwing has been busy training his own young vigilantes. I've no problem with a reconciliation between Dick and Bruce Wayne. But Wayne should never again put a strain on that relationship by asking Dick to do something for him. Should Dick neglect his own "kids" to attend to Wayne's? And then when all is done, Terry gets it all. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. You're just using me like you always did. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

Finally, W/E may be a character in the mythos, but it was a supporting character, not a star. To invest too many episodes and characters into Terry's struggle to wrest his allowance from his elders is to trade the banality of the teen scenes for the banality of the boardroom. Dick and Barbara are crimefighters ; let them stay that way.

Even when Lucius Sr. appeared in BTAS/TNBA he was a vehicle to move a Batman plot along. He was the Kenny of the old series. Whenever we saw him (e.g. "Double talk," "The ultimate thrill"), we just knew something bad was going to happen.

I believe that the CEO job will indeed pass directly from Wayne to Terry. The CFO job would (should) go either to Fox Jr. or a new character created for this purpose. He/she would appear only when crucial to a Batman plot.



I don't think our solutions are that different in end, only in means. I'm only proposing a set of tactics that I think would work best toward the same ultimate end: Terry as both Batman and chieftain of WE.

Here we agree : that Terry is the rightful, inevitable heir. Thank goodness!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
Even when Lucius Sr. appeared in BTAS/TNBA he was a vehicle to move a Batman plot along. He was the Kenny of the old series. Whenever we saw him (e.g. "Double talk," "The ultimate thrill"), we just knew something bad was going to happen.

"Oh my god! They're going to kill Lucius!"

LOL!

More serious response follows. But I loved the image so much I had to react to it.

[Maxie Zeus]

I'll just re-emphasize my basic premise, because it is really is the key to my worries about turning things over to Terry immediately.

Wayne plans for all contingencies. Uppermost in his mind should be: "What if I drop dead tomorrow?" He had (or should have had) this thought at the end of "Rebirth Part II" when he takes on Terry, and at every other moment during Terry's high school career. So what should happen if he drops dead while Terry was still in high school?

You suggest that he should go adopt Terry, and put a secondary tier into the company to run it while Terry grows in maturity and plausibility as a corporate CEO. Then upon his (untimely) death Terry steps into the same situation that Bruce stepped upon the (untimely) death of his own natural father.

I suppose there are two levels on which I recoil from this. The first is one of storytelling; history should never repeat itself (except intentionally as farce), and the idea of Terry repeating more or less exactly the sequence of events that led to Wayne's takeover of the company seems to waste the possibility of having a variation on the old theme. I'll be forthright (though not, I devoutly hope, rude): I would like to see something fresh, and the above scenario isn't quite it. (But maybe my own scenario has a piquancy that owes less to spice than to age--I'll cheerfully leave you that opening to exploit. :))

The second is one of interior plausibility. There is too much opportunity in such a repeat for a farcical aspect that too often attends such repeats. That is why I alluded to the chance for gossip. The gossip would not be forestalled by an adoption; beyond the tortuous complications involving the Robins and the McGinnis family you rightly bring out, everyone would sit up and wonder why this old bachelor billionaire (never married) is adopting his pretty young adolescent assistant. Cursory digging would reveal that most of Terry's jobs occur at night, and do NOT involve any visible errand running. (Of course, we know that Terry isn't at Wayne Manor, but no one else does.) In this case, of course, 2+2 does not equal 4, but the Ian Peaks of the world could certainly be excused for thinking that it does. And such gossip would make Mary McGinnis' surprise (and maybe horror) all the worse. It would be a circus, and Wayne's eventual death would only start it up again.

I will grant you that the vexed interpersonal relations that would result would be quite interesting story-wise, but given the (to my mind) unavoidable consequences I just sketched, it seems to me that Wayne would have to be fool to attempt it. And Wayne is not a fool and shouldn't be painted as one. (That, or the proposed arc would have to ignore such plausible--indeed, to my mind, inevitable--consequences.)

Now, I've repeated all this not to belabor my original points, but to emphasize what I would want from you in order to convince me: I start not with the thought that Terry isn't deserving (yes, we agree on that absolutely), but that Wayne is going to have to be devious if he is going to get Terry his just desert. So you will have to convince me that such deviousness isn't required, and that a straightforward solution like you sketch hasn't got insuperable difficulties. Lacking such reassurance, even if you were to demonstrate that my solution is worse than yours (which I do not yet grant), it would only drive me to concoct another solution, not to accede in yours.

Here's the bargain I propose: Reassure me that the problems I discern above are phantasmagorical only. That is a hard task, I admit, but it comes with a high reward: If you succeed, then you unconditionally win the debate (and I will not be grudging; as I say, your proposal is more elegantly direct than mine). And if you fail, then the burden shifts to me: I will have to demonstrate that my solution is not inferior to yours.

Since, under such a bargain, I don't have to address your substantive points until later (and maybe not at all, if you win), I will here pass over the rest of your very thoughtful post.

[Maxie Zeus]

"The World's Finest" (which these message boards are associated with) has a web-page called Pro-Con, where people can submit editorials and analyses about the DC universe. Old Maid and I are multiple contributors, and have decided that this topic is rich enough to sustain a couple of essays, so if you're still interested in this topic, we haven't dropped it. We're just going to migrate to another part of World's finest.

[The Old Maid]

Yes, circumstances permitting, we may take an opportunity later to lay out the debate in a format better suited for it. No timetables, no promises though. Peace.