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View Full Version : Spider-Man: The Clone Saga. Am I the ONLY one…?



Infinity Blade
05-23-2003, 01:47 PM
I’m sure this has been brought up before, but I feel the sudden need to vent, for some reason.

Back when I was younger, I wasn’t really into comics. Sure, I’d pick up the occasional issue of various books once in a blue moon, and although I collected Sonic the Hedgehog religiously, I didn’t read very much of anything else. Sure, I loved SUPERHEROES and the idea of them plenty, I just didn’t pick up the books much. I think the Death of Superman and all the hype surrounding it kind of scared me to some extent. I didn’t like the idea of my heroes croaking at the time.

Then one day I was in a grocery store, flipping through a new issue of Spider-Man on the newsstand. But… the hero here wasn’t Spider-Man. It was some guy in a web-less, red suit with a blue sweater.

And instantly, I loved it.

See, I’m a BIG Spider-Man fan. But when I was a kid, my hero wasn’t Peter Parker.

It was Ben Reilly, the Scarlet Spider.

It wasn’t long before I found out about the whole messed up affair of his past. He was a clone of the book’s main hero, Spider-Man.

But frankly, I didn’t CARE. Ben was cool. He was an interesting character. He was badass. And everything that followed would only increase how much I liked him, and make me see whole other dimensions to Spider-Man that I had never appreciated before. Especially since changes were coming upon Peter’s character too… when I got into the books big time, it had just been discovered Mary Jane was pregnant, and then Aunt May died. Though somehow, while Amazing #400 was sad, it wasn’t… depressing like seeing the Death of Superman. If it wasn’t for what happened years later, that would still be my favorite issue of Spider-Man ever…

And from then on, I was hooked on comics.

Mainly Spider-Man, mind you, but that was all I needed, with so many books coming out a month. And it had what I felt to be such an involving story that I didn’t really care. Things developed, things CHANGED, and rarely really stayed the same for quite awhile. Eventually, over time, Peter gained a partner in his fight, a brother… and I was really quite pleased with the things that happened. Now, sure, they may have gone a little overboard at times (re: Maximum Clonage)… but it was still fun.

Of course, I wasn’t just a stupid kid that just wanted to see heroes beating the crap out of things. As I said, my favorite issue for years was Amazing #400. I appreciated characters and how they reacted & dealt with things.

Then we discovered that Peter wasn’t the REAL Peter. He was the clone. Ben was the genuine article.

But while the general comic fandom may have gotten worked up about it, I didn’t mind. Just another twist to the story, and I could appreciate that. I kind of figured it wasn’t true, anyway. But it didn’t really matter that much, either. Everything Peter had done since the first battle between him and Ben… he still did it. The fact he was apparently a clone didn’t change the things that he DID DO. It didn’t change that he was still the person he was, to me. But again, I figured it wasn’t true anyway… that fact just never mattered much to me.

Ben becomes Spider-Man, and I still continue to love the books, maybe even more than before. It was disappointing to see Peter leave, but it made things even better when he came back.

”Revelations” arrived. The Green Goblin returned. Little May, not even born yet, was in trouble. I read each issue anxiously… praying things wouldn’t end as horribly as I was predicting…

But when I saw Part 4 in a title now named ”Peter Parker: Spider-Man”, I got a bad feeling. I had no problems with the thought of Peter returning to the webs, but…

It was here I saw my hero brutally murdered. But it wasn’t enough just to KILL him. I have learned over the years that the death of a character in fiction is an effective tool for stories. However, here it was different… The way it was done felt spiteful.

First he gets the crap beat out of him, and has to go around with all that pain throughout the entire issue.
Then he gets impaled by the Goblin Glider.
Then he gets dropped off a building.
Into a car.
And finally, he turns to dust.

I thought Superman being beaten into a bloody mess was bad. This was far worse, and it felt like Marvel had kicked me in a certain place. Multiple times. With a steel-tipped boot.

Oh, and for some last minute salt to be dumped into the wound, he’s actually the clone. Which is, of course, why he got dusted. Thus doing away with the body. And any possible chance of ever coming back. I had no problem with him BEING a clone. I could have cared less which one of them was the clone, honestly. But to do it then and there, HOW they did it…

Plus, little May was gone, never to be seen again… well, except in her own book, of course.

By this point in time I had become more involved with comics as a whole. I knew Ben was hated. I knew that people wanted his head. That they wanted him dead. This saddened me. It saddened me even more that Marvel gave into this. They caved. And made me lose a LOT of respect for them at the time

Of course, I kept reading. I still loved Spidey. And thanks to being brought into the book by Ben’s part, Peter had definitely become one of my favorite heroes of all time. And the story was still interesting… heck, it wasn’t like they had forgotten about what had happened in the past, either, as Norman still played a huge role after some time.

I should have figured, though, that Doc Ock coming back to life wasn’t a good sign of what was to come. Unfortunately, I’m not that perceptive, and eventually met with the unpleasantness that was “The Final Chapter”. I don’t think I have to explain THAT one to anybody…

These days, I’m really out of the loop with Spider-Man comics. MJ’s “death” really killed things for me a few years ago. (as did not being able to afford to buy books in a regular basis, but that little incident made me not miss things as much as I would have otherwise) Not because she died. But because I had no doubt in my mind she would come back. Don’t get me wrong, I love MJ, but since “Revelations” the concept of REALLY changing things in major ways was something that they had started beating down.

“The Final Chapter” then brutally murdered that concept. With a chainsaw. And tossed was left into a meat grinder.

I know I really should get back into the swing of things (no pun intended) these days, and I really plan to. But I can’t help but get nostalgic when I think about doing so, thinking back to what got me into the series…

So, after this long-winded rant, what’s the point of this? Eh, I guess I just wanted to ask… Am I the ONLY one that enjoyed various factors of the Clone Saga? Or am I just in a very tiny minority?

Matthew Williams
05-23-2003, 02:27 PM
I haven't read the clone stories, but from what I've seen, their horribleness was largely overblown. I own a few issues of the run prior to clone saga, and you can see why they decided to undertake it in the first place-- the stories were getting stale, Peter was losing his humanity(retreating into his superhero persona, even to the point of a web cocoon? yick), and the clone story was there to get the character back to basics. (and also to obey orders from upper management to create something akin to the Death of Superman)

Thing was, when the storyline got really popular... the boneheads at Marvel's upper management encouraged the storyline to be stretched out as far as possible, hence the tons of one-shots and the Scarlet Spider miniseries. And later, when the editors tried to recruit new writers for the titles, a lot of them, most notably Dan Jurgens, balked that they had to write for Ben Reilly-- because they wanted to write for Peter Parker.

And a lot of it has to be traced to the editorial state of Marvel at the time. Tom DeFalco supported the original clone concept, the very simple and quick one. Then "Marvelution" came and Bob Budiansky was placed in charge of the Spider-Man "group" of titles. Budiansky was perhaps too swayed by outside opinion and after supporting the clone concept, suddenly 180ed and demanded Peter Parker be brought back. And after this, Budiansky got replaced by new EIC Bob "teh suck" Harras, who came upon the very unsatisfying conclusion to the story.

I haven't read it, but after reading Grayhaven's Life of Reilly, there's a lot of outside information that makes parts of the story easier to understand.

Infinity Blade
05-23-2003, 05:24 PM
I haven't read the clone stories, but from what I've seen, their horribleness was largely overblown. I own a few issues of the run prior to clone saga, and you can see why they decided to undertake it in the first place-- the stories were getting stale, Peter was losing his humanity(retreating into his superhero persona, even to the point of a web cocoon? yick)


After getting into the books so long ago, I remember getting back-issues close to just before Ben really entered the picture...

Yeah, "yick" is just about the right word. O_o;

But what you mention does make some of the creative decisions towards the end make some amount of sense... even if the conclusion to "fix" things again was overly extreme and not needed, in my opinion.

Could I possibly have a link to this Life of Reilly thing you mention? I used to have it bookmarked and meant to go through it, but I seem to have lost it...

Matthew Williams
05-23-2003, 10:35 PM
http://www.newcomicreviews.com/columns/2/LifeOfReilly/

Only a few chapters are there because the series is being "reformatted", unfortunately. But what's there expalins the very beginning of the series and covers Bob Budiansky's ascent to the title.

Reed Richards
05-24-2003, 01:19 AM
while i hated 99% of the clone saga, i loved ben reilly and HATE the way marvel simply killed him off.

i think it would have been a pretty cool setup if they had followed the initial plan-- a 6 month "spider-book" wide event.

instead we had years of PAIN

Joe Wagner
05-24-2003, 01:27 AM
Trust me - you are not alone. I was a huge fan of Ben Reily and think that Marvel acted rashly by making the stupid decision to kill Ben. The Scarlet Spider was easily one of the greatest ideas to come out of the House of Ideas at the time and the storyline was intriguing - playing off of the events of a much early time in the wall crawlers life. Perhaps even greater though was that Ben served the purpose of becoming family to a person that was losing their dear Aunt May while the fans reaped the benefits of the "single" wall crawling hero and Peter Parker was finally given the chance to enjoy being a husband and was preparing for fatherhood.

The ill fated decision to remove the Scarlet Spider from the books was one that was made because the Clone story line was stretched far to long and the other clones like Spider-Cide worked against the great concepts of the Scarlet Spider and even Kaine. Instead of finding out what the fans wanted they simply made the decision to kill this promising character. What makes the decision worse though is their reluctance to talk about or deal with the character (even Stan Lee has said that he hopes he never returns) even though numerous polls have been taken that reveal that readers want Ben back - just not as "the one, true Spider-Man".

For such an amazing company at times one has to seriously wonder how they can take the amazing potential of characters like the Scarlet Spider, Spider-Man 2099 and X-Man and completely destroy them - to the point where they no longer want to deal with the characters because of the reader reactions to their blatant mis-characterizations and over extensions of storylines. If Marvel ever choose to do a series on the Scarlet Spider and used Ben as the hero they would have a dedicated reader to the series for as long as the book was around, provided of course Warren Ellis doesn't take over and make him into a bald shaman for the Marvel Universe (similar to the dismal storytelling of the later X-Man stories that completely changed the Nate Grey character).

-Joe!

LEGACY
05-26-2003, 06:24 AM
while i hated 99% of the clone saga, i loved ben reilly and HATE the way marvel simply killed him off.

i think it would have been a pretty cool setup if they had followed the initial plan-- a 6 month "spider-book" wide event.

instead we had years of PAIN



I agree. Ben was the only god thing to come out of the clone saga. Killing him off was just wrong. It not like later on we were not gonna find out it was all a trick just to make peter life a living hell.

kaine23
05-26-2003, 10:13 AM
The clone saga was what actually got me into the Spidey books years ago. I had picke dup "Shreak part 2" and was intreste din what'd happen next so soon off I started getting some the other Spidey books which started bringing this clone saga to life. I managed to get the issue when Aunt may died and some the othe rmajor ones but thanks to the place I got comics stopping having them, I ended up missing the revalation of Ben Reilly and Maximum Cloneage (but managed to read them later thanks to a neighbor).

Shame what they did to Ben and the Scarlet Spider- he had a great outfit and potential. Really cheap way to get rid of him too.