Can we talk about emulators here? [Archive]

Bird Boy

05-20-2003, 02:21 PM

It's an aspect of gaming, yes, but it's an illegal one as well.

While we don't encourage alot of talk about it, I don't think we have an outright ban on them--just no posting links to any websites with emulators or games to download. Talk is fine--it's like talking about P2P programs, but we can't link to them. Legal crap and all that.

-BB

RZetlin

05-20-2003, 02:51 PM

Emulators are not illegal.

But the roms and game dumps are.

What aspect of emulators do you want to talk about.

Lucky Bob

05-20-2003, 02:53 PM

Nothing wrong with emulators, just the stuff that inevitably goes with it...(like what RZ said.)

I'm all ears...

kiddiesunshine

05-20-2003, 02:56 PM

I wanted to talk about Zbattle. I'm getting in to it. It's a great, free way to play SNES games with others online. The only downside is Zbattle only supports 2 people per room. That might not even be a downside considering most SNES games are either 1 or 2 players anyway. If anyone here plays zbattle, look for me. I'm Shinryuhi.

Bird Boy

05-20-2003, 03:02 PM

Emulators are not illegal.

But the roms and game dumps are.

yeah, but what are you going to do with an emulator, just by itself? That's like buying a SNES and no games :p

Point is, people don't just talk about SNES/emulators. People talk about what's being played on them--you don't say "I have a SNES", you say "I have Super Mario World", which would indicate you already had a SNES.

So yeah, whatever. Just no linking...

-BB

RZetlin

05-20-2003, 03:25 PM

yeah, but what are you going to do with an emulator, just by itself? That's like buying a SNES and no games :p

Some people have gone through the trouble of making their own emulator ROMs.

Here's a link (http://www.zophar.net/roms.phtml?op=show&type=snes) for freeware/public domain ROMs. (These are not illegal!)

randomguy

05-20-2003, 05:36 PM

I wouldn't mind having a legitimate debate on the issue... but I agree with TZ's no-linkage stance.

kiddiesunshine

05-20-2003, 06:40 PM

I also think that this is a subject that should be talked about more without fear of arousing controversy. This reeks of censorship and I don't agree with censorship of any kind. However, since the use of roms without the actual games is illegal, it's common sense that a legitimate place such as this would want to keep its distance from emulation. The topic should not be taboo, but there should not be any links to emulators or emulator-related sites.

SNS

05-20-2003, 06:49 PM

kiddiesunshine

05-20-2003, 06:57 PM

Oh well. I don't think I'm hurting Nintendo much by playing games they don't even produce anymore.

Psycho Fox

05-20-2003, 07:16 PM

It's illegal regardless of you owning the game or not. This is a common mistake people make, they assume because they own the game it makes it legal to have a rom of it when it's not (it even says on the last page of instruction manuals that "backup" copies are illegal).
Yes but many goverments around the world gives you the right to backup ANY media as even CDs age so video gamming licences are questionable legally.

SNS

05-20-2003, 07:33 PM

Oh well. I don't think I'm hurting Nintendo much by playing games they don't even produce anymore.

Actually it does. Video game companies (especially Nintendo) like to port their classic games to other systems & include them in collections.

Catlover

05-20-2003, 07:52 PM

Actually it does. Video game companies (especially Nintendo) like to port their classic games to other systems & include them in collections.

But you would think it would be okay to download and play a ROM of Final Fight 2 and play it untill Capcom rereleased it to a newer system. Copcom and Nintendo aren't makeing any money off of an game that you can only buy used. Also I just want to make it clear that I have never downloaded a ROM and probably never will.

bfmusashi

05-20-2003, 07:56 PM

Emulators are plain awesome, and always will be. Otherwise, I'd never have gotten the chance to play such great, never-released-in-the-US SNES greats such as Secret of Mana 2 and Tales of Phantasia.

Psycho Fox

05-20-2003, 08:03 PM

Actually it does. Video game companies (especially Nintendo) like to port their classic games to other systems & include them in collections.
But some games never get ported or renewed IE Psycho Fox for the SMS will NEVER be on another system.

RZetlin

05-20-2003, 08:31 PM

Actually it does. Video game companies (especially Nintendo) like to port their classic games to other systems & include them in collections.

Ah, but you assume that old games would get a port.

What happens when an old game doesn't get rerelease? Then what?

I don't see a port of ActRaiser for the GBA.

Even if a old game was going to be rerelease you don't know when the game would come back.

Back in the SNES days would you have known that Super Mario World would be release again on a colour portable called Gameboy Advance?

RZetlin

05-20-2003, 09:28 PM

I would also like to point out that emulators can enchance the gaming experience.

For example PSX emulators can make the 3D jaggy cruel graphics on the PSX look like smooth graphics from a PS2 system.

I think this pic here (http://www.ngemu.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=380897) is a good example of what emulators can do to enhance the graphics. (The game is Gran Turismo 2)

randomguy

05-20-2003, 09:56 PM

But you would think it would be okay to download and play a ROM of Final Fight 2 and play it untill Capcom rereleased it to a newer system. Copcom and Nintendo aren't makeing any money off of an game that you can only buy used. Also I just want to make it clear that I have never downloaded a ROM and probably never will.

Still inexcusable, because you could hit up ebay, half.com, or any used Gamestop or similiar used game store in your area to procure an SNES and the game. You'd have to do some tracking, but you could find it. It's not like no copies of the game exist.

Bird Boy

05-21-2003, 07:52 AM

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 08:44 AM

It may be inexcuseable to just download it when you can still buy it, but if Nintendo doesn't get any profit from the eBay sale or GameStop.com sale, or EB Games sale, then, while it's still illegal, it's not "hurting" anyone.

Take for instance, the game "Chrono Trigger". Who, in their right mind, would pay over $100 just for a copy of this game? I will say this: one good thing about these emulators is the fact really rare games can be found and enjoyed by alot more than that could back when they were originally released.

-BBAlso it is hard to keep bringing old systems out just to play a bit. Plus hardware fails, my 2600 has been dead for years so what I'm I suppose to dish out money for another one when I can run it even on my Dreamcast by burning the roms on a CD.

Also with the comming of the Commodore One (http://c64upgra.de/c-one/) the first shape shifting computer (the copper is reprogramable) it can morph into a NES,SMS and other 8-bit systems easily and it won't be emulation since the Hardware actully is acting like said system. That should make easier since just pop the cart into the C-One dump onto the Hard Drive and away you go. I hope in the future there will be a 16-bit version :cool:

kiddiesunshine

05-21-2003, 09:12 AM

Actually it does. Video game companies (especially Nintendo) like to port their classic games to other systems & include them in collections.
In this case, the game companies need to make the ports worth buying. Add something to them that the original game didn't have, and better graphics or an extra 20 year old game ain't gonna cut it. Ad what about the online aspect? What are the odds that Capcom will release an online version of Street Fighter 2? Very, very slim. If I can seize the opportunity to use an emulator to do what the game companies are too stupid to do, I'll do just that.
It's like how people refuse to buy CDs over downloading MP3's. They feel the music industry needs to provide some incentive to deter downloading music. When the game companies do what I, a video gamer for almost 20 years, want, I'll have no need for emulators.

painaxl

05-21-2003, 09:42 AM

In this case, the game companies need to make the ports worth buying. Add something to them that the original game didn't have, and better graphics or an extra 20 year old game ain't gonna cut it. Ad what about the online aspect? What are the odds that Capcom will release an online version of Street Fighter 2? Very, very slim. If I can seize the opportunity to use an emulator to do what the game companies are too stupid to do, I'll do just that.
It's like how people refuse to buy CDs over downloading MP3's. They feel the music industry needs to provide some incentive to deter downloading music. When the game companies do what I, a video gamer for almost 20 years, want, I'll have no need for emulators.

Then again no one ever said the people downloading mp3s were right, either. But that's another topic all together... :)

Anyhow, you may not be hurting the company, but it's still 'illegal' even if you own the cartridge. Welcome to the new U.S.A. and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act which strips away any "fair use" guidelines that we used to be provided. The backing up of your own personal software of any kind is illegal. Google "DMCA" or better yet go to http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20030102_dmca_unintended_consequences.html and see what it's all about.

I was really into emulation, but then I got into the more collecting aspect of gaming. I'm not saying I'm better, or that I don't like emulation, or I don't do it. I'm just saying that it's illegal. It shouldn't be (if you own the cartridge), but it is.

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 11:16 AM

Anyhow, you may not be hurting the company, but it's still 'illegal' even if you own the cartridge. Welcome to the new U.S.A. and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act which strips away any "fair use" guidelines that we used to be provided. The backing up of your own personal software of any kind is illegal. Google "DMCA" or better yet go to http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20030102_dmca_unintended_consequences.html and see what it's all about.

But then what about the Commodore One that with soft gates can clone any 8-bit system and legally since it is reverse enginering and if that is illegaly that IBM could close the IBM clone market instantly by sueing every IBM compat maker since they all use reverse enginered IBM technology from the late 70's thus killing Microsoft instantly and IBM can take their place over night since it is legally their platform just everyone reversed enginered it. Thus unless that is true Commodre Ones when released are legal since the copy command is NEEDED since it is still a computer then anyone can simple copy the cart slot to HD. All nice and legal.

DMCA is a joke.

painaxl

05-21-2003, 11:21 AM

DMCA is a joke.

Believe me, I feel the same way. Something needs to be done about it. However, it's still a law that many companies are putting a lot of resources into enforcing. I don't agree with it one bit.

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 11:26 AM

Believe me, I feel the same way. Something needs to be done about it. However, it's still a law that many companies are putting a lot of resources into enforcing. I don't agree with it one bit.
But as I said reverse enginering is legal else IBM could easily close the X86 platform by simply stating all the x86 computers not made by IBM are illegal and can't be sold anymore.

Thus like I also said that would mean Commodre One is legal and running games off it as it is cloning the machine native to the game would also be legal.

RZetlin

05-21-2003, 11:36 AM

But then what about the Commodore One that with soft gates can clone any 8-bit system and legally since it is reverse enginering and if that is illegaly that IBM could close the IBM clone market instantly by sueing every IBM compat maker since they all use reverse enginered IBM technology from the late 70's thus killing Microsoft instantly and IBM can take their place over night since it is legally their platform just everyone reversed enginered it. Thus unless that is true Commodre Ones when released are legal since the copy command is NEEDED since it is still a computer then anyone can simple copy the cart slot to HD. All nice and legal.

DMCA is a joke.

But the clones were created before the DMCA.

If companies tired to do the same thing now, I bet IBM would sue them.

And yes, the DMCA is a joke.

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 11:52 AM

But the clones were created before the DMCA.

If companies tired to do the same thing now, I bet IBM would sue them.
Ahh but the ablity to backup is just as old. By that logic can't you simply state you backed it up BEFORE the DMCA?

RZetlin

05-21-2003, 11:56 AM

Ahh but the ablity to backup is just as old. By that logic can't you simply state you backed it up BEFORE the DMCA?

It would be hard to use this argument if the technology is new.

"I backed up my really old PS2 game!" :cool:

Bakasama

05-21-2003, 12:25 PM

You got a pic of a BLEEM shot? I've been around the emu community for five years and they're generally say that it was the worst PSX emulator. They were accused of making the images look pretty while the emulation of a PSX was questionable. Sony tried suing those guys and BLEEM won. Then BLEEM went out of business, I think was because of the legal fees and other money problems.

If you want talk about emulators, this may not be the best to talk about them since the current policy on them is limited to talking about them but no links. There are other boards to talk this but very few are as friendly as this board.

atf487

05-21-2003, 12:29 PM

According to the DMCA, I think you can back up a copy of your game, but it would have to be on the same medium. Like a 1:1 Music CD copy is legal, but MP3's may not be. I'm not sure though, don't quote me on it. IMO, as long as you keep your copies to yourself, you should be ok.

RZetlin

05-21-2003, 12:42 PM

You got a pic of a BLEEM shot? I've been around the emu community for five years and they're generally say that it was the worst PSX emulator.

If you want talk about emulators, this may not be the best to talk about them since the current policy on them is limited to talking about them but no links. There are other boards to talk this but very few are as friendly as this board.

Bleem should not have been a commerical product.

There were glitches that prevented you from playing all the PSX games. Plus the graphics were not enchanced.

Bleem would have been a better off as freeware.

If you want a good PSX emulator give ePSXe a try. Unlike Bleem, ePSXe is freeware.

Bakasama, I will PM you for more information.

painaxl

05-21-2003, 12:47 PM

Ahh but the ablity to backup is just as old. By that logic can't you simply state you backed it up BEFORE the DMCA?

You would think so, but there's a legal precedent that's being decided on right now (a dvd copying case in CA) that will really decide that.

Anyhow, getting back on-topic, my opinion on emulation is very different then my gathered knowledge on the legal position :). I think emulation is an excellent idea and a great way to preserve games that won't last forever. Also, I love playing games that people have been good enough to translate (a couple of Kunio series games, in perticular). There's a lot of good that comes from emulation and overall I think it's a positive. Hence, I believe that the laws governing it are rather silly, but that does not make them any less true.

Baltofan

05-21-2003, 01:01 PM

I had both a Nintendo, C64 and Amstrad CPC 464 emulator, but they did not last very long, and many of the emulators I tried would not work.

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 01:01 PM

You would think so, but there's a legal precedent that's being decided on right now (a dvd copying case in CA) that will really decide that.
But if the DMCA is retroactive it would be a pandoras box meaning IBM could take complete control of the X86 arc. Xerox can take control of Windows,MacOS and others. IDR (Intergalactic
Digital Research) could take complete control of Dos and Windows as Windows still has Dos in it. It would be a legal mess.

Anyhow, getting back on-topic, my opinion on emulation is very different then my gathered knowledge on the legal position :). I think emulation is an excellent idea and a great way to preserve games that won't last forever. Also, I love playing games that people have been good enough to translate (a couple of Kunio series games, in perticular). There's a lot of good that comes from emulation and overall I think it's a positive. Hence, I believe that the laws governing it are rather silly, but that does not make them any less true.
I agree since alot of people don't want to have every system they ever had hooked up nor want to keep them all maintained thus emulations allows people to play these old games on moderen hardware.

RZetlin

05-21-2003, 02:50 PM

Is this post just about the legality of emulators?

Is there anything else people want to talk about the use of emulators?

randomguy

05-21-2003, 07:10 PM

Take for instance, the game "Chrono Trigger". Who, in their right mind, would pay over $100 just for a copy of this game? I will say this: one good thing about these emulators is the fact really rare games can be found and enjoyed by alot more than that could back when they were originally released.

Another bad example, because Chrono Trigger was rereleased on the PS1 with shiny new bonuses. But I see your point, and for INCREDIBLY OBSCURE stuff like the Turbo-Grafix 16 I agree. But for the NES, SNES, Game Boy, etc., I disagree with the use of emulators.

However, I've always supported arcade emulation. I feel that what MAME does is of actual importance- arcade cabinets aren't consoles, they can't be tracked down easily or cheaply, and a lot of classic arcade games are just plain out of reach to 99.99999999% of the gaming population. Most of these games aren't in the arcades anymore, or may not have been released domestically, so it's not like you can support them in that form.

However, if an arcade game has seen console, PC, or recent US release, then I can't condone emulating it. For example, MAME supports Marvel Vs. Capcom, but I certainly wouldn't download it, as A) I could buy the game arcade-perfect on one console and well-ported on yet another and B) I could name a handful of arcades that still have the game.

Eddy

05-21-2003, 08:05 PM

I pretty much hate ROMs. I usually only download games that are only available in Japan. I did download Yoshi's Island and Earthbound, but once I saw them in the used game section at the store I bought them and deleted the ROMs. I think the only ROMs I have now are a few DBZ games and Super Metroid.

MJC

05-21-2003, 08:28 PM

o_o;

I have somewhere around 150 ROMS on my computer, few of which I had on a system. I guess I'm a bastard.

I think emulation is a positive thing for old games. I don't live near anyplace that sells used games (well...old used games) and I don't care how morally wrong I am, I'm not paying a large amount of money or going miles and miles for a game I could download in a few minutes. (As far as porting games...most won't get ported)

On the other hand, I don't emulate current systems. Basically I only D/L ROMS of 8 and 16 bit games. That's just how I feel about it.

kiddiesunshine

05-21-2003, 08:42 PM

What about all the extras emulators provide? The ability to alter color palettes. Data altering (what others might call cheat codes). Screenshots. Sound dumps. Rom hacks. All the things that I like to mess around with. No console offers those things. Gamesharks can do data altering, but they no longer have code generators, making the code finding process way more painstaking than necessary. I like my emulators.

SNS

05-21-2003, 08:58 PM

I'm not paying a large amount of money or going miles and miles for a game I could download in a few minutes.

That's like stealing something from a store & saying "I don't want to pay for it, when I can just smash the glass & take it".

Psycho Fox

05-21-2003, 10:33 PM

That's like stealing something from a store & saying "I don't want to pay for it, when I can just smash the glass & take it".
But even if you buy a discontued off E-bay your money won't reach the creators/owners/publishers what ever it will just reach some person that bought it when it was available.

Oh no becouse I download old rare discontued games the price will drop and a collectors won't get as high a price how inhuman of me.

kiddiesunshine

05-22-2003, 09:16 AM

That is true. Isn't it illegal to resale products for prices different from the prices the makers allow? Walmart can't buy Gamecube games at $40 and sell them for $80. Nor can they sell them for $20.
Major stores no longer sell SNES games. Therefore, if anyone sells them, Nintendo doesn't see a dime. Some other guy gets that money. Emulator use cuts out the middleman. You get the roms and that is it. Yes, it's illegal, but the laws aren't always right either.
Oh. Did anyone happen to mention how some people use roms to try out games to confirm whether or not they want to buy the actual games? Roms are great, but you can't take them with you wherever you go. After people try out the rom and see they want that game, they delete the rom and buy the actual game. This method is great for people who buy games online a lot. It's like a virtual Funcoland.

RZetlin

05-22-2003, 11:35 AM

Roms are great, but you can't take them with you wherever you go.

I guess you haven't heard about playing roms on a computer notebook. ;)

A several years ago I saw a student playing Chrono Trigger on his notebook at the cafeteria.

dendawg

05-22-2003, 12:06 PM

That is true. Isn't it illegal to resale products for prices different from the prices the makers allow? Walmart can't buy Gamecube games at $40 and sell them for $80. Nor can they sell them for $20.

True, they can't sell them for $20, but for anything above cost, the price is free game. They could sell Gamecube games for $80, if they thought they could get away with it, but the competitors would sell them for just regular MSRP ($49.99 in this case) and kick their butts.

ohmrbill

05-22-2003, 03:15 PM

I see no problem with emulating old, out-of-print games like that of SNES. Yes, you could find some of the stuff at used game stores, but I don't see how they have any more legal right to make money off old games than bottled water companies have legal right to make money off water.

And as for the "some game companies like to bring back old games" argument... well, I categorize that under the same logic as fan subs for unlicensed anime; if it happens it happens, but until then they're free game.

kiddiesunshine

05-23-2003, 12:30 PM

SNS

05-23-2003, 12:40 PM

Psycho Fox

05-23-2003, 09:29 PM

The problem with emulators is that a lot of people don't use them the way you guys do. For instance, there are many times when I see a person on a message board being excited about a game getting ported & the person gets replies like "So what? I can just download it".
Thats a problem with bootleging not emulators. Even if they outlawed emulators you could still bootleg the games.

I better not give them any ideas they already distroyed the US Copyright Act amendments of 1980 (the
96th Congress) amending the 1976 statutes (in re "The Computer Software Copyright Act") permits one to make four (4) backup copies of purchased software for one's own use.

This was made so you could have both on site and off site back ups so one does not have to rebuy software incase of a disaser or wear and tear of the medium it is on. The act also allows use to allow transfer onto differnt media to help make software future proof. Now they say I can't becouse I don't need to backup well if my house burns down and all by Game Cube games goes up will Nintendo give me new copies? I think not.