Talkback: "Why I Hate The Ultimates"

[Doug Smith]

Confession time: I decided that, since I was going to do a column on why I hate The Ultimates so much, I should go back and re-read the first six issues (it was after issue 6 that I dropped this title from my buy list in disgust) to give a more balanced, fresh opinion.

And guess what?

I don't really hate The Ultimates...at least, not as much as I thought I did.

But there is still plenty about it that I don't like.

Continue reading "Why I Hate the Ultimates" (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?threadid=73645)

[Jor-El]

::stands and applauds::

This is the finest piece of writing that I have ever read at Toon Zone. I cannnot give you enough compliments on the sound argument you presented with the clear evidence to back it up. MAN would I love to hear your thoughts on Joe Kelly's JLA!

As I recover from my shock and amazement at how well-structured and well-presented that piece was, let me say that I agree with it wholeheartedly. I have thought this for months—my last issue on the title was #8, but I never read it; the last issue I read was #7.

Regarding the artwork: you're right. I don't need Bryan Hitch on this title. Would I enjoy Bryan Hitch on this book? I did enjoy him when I was still a reader. But it's it Hitch that delays the book for months at a time? Isn't he the reason that this book doesn't come out on a monthly basis? I'm sorry, Bryan, (if you're reading this,) and I'm sorry to hardcore fans of Bryan, but his artwork is absolutely NOT worth those months of waiting. Get someone who's of the same skill and can produce comics on time.

About the stories: you're right. Listen guys, I'm not big into Marvel. I just don't have the time to handle it. I'm still struggling to catch up on so much of DC's history and and characters that it would be nothing short of FOOLISH for me to imagine that I could EVER accomplish with Marvel even the little bit that I have accomplished with DC.

However, I know enough about the Avengers and the characters therein, and I know enough about Marvel from my friend (the repository of all X-Men trivia,) to know that these characters are little more than caricatures of their comic counterpart. I can't remember where or when, but I remember Darwyn Cooke, easily one of the best comic talents in the industry today, saying that he didn't like ULTIMATES for the same reason. He said something along the same lines of not being interested in shock storytelling and characters he couldn't respect. I seem to remember him encouraging these Ultimates writers that instead of telling stories like this, work harder to make the ACTUAL characters better (if anyone remembers this actual interview, PLEASE link it! It's very releveant to this whole topic and would add some great input from one of the greatest names in comics!) To me, that's exactly what should be done: write characters we can care about, respect, and still enjoy. Don't take the easy way out and shock us by Pym beating the hell out of Janet. Like Doug said, that's simply not good writing. (The same could be said about a lot of movies—I want to see deep, three-dimensional, well-written characters before I want to see fantastic explosions and other special effects or those stereotypical "I'm a renowned cop who has a week before he has to retire, but I have to solve this one last big case with the new punk cop who is probably replacing me when I'm gone" sort of deal, where people claim that the characters are three-dimensional, but only exist in the roles of "Old Cop" and "Young Kid"; this is another story in itself and one that I probably shouldn't be ranting about here.)

The argument that people have presented (which Doug rebutted against) about these grave flaws making heroes more human is VERY valid—human like spousal abusers, alcoholics, and uncontrollable, rampaging beasts. All of these characters should be prosecuted and locked away. The qualities Millar has given them don't make them more human in any way I can respect or appreciate. At DC, in the pages of STARMAN, Jack and Ted Knight were VERY HUMAN. In fact, that book revealed that Ted had an affair with Diana Lance, Black Canary I. THAT is a human mistake. Ted Knight, a relative GOD in the scheme of JSA and Starman, was still just human. (I don't condone or support affairs, and I would NEVER be involved in one, but I wouldn't imprison people for having them the way I would for spousal abuse or killing people.) Jack Knight was human too. He loved junk and collecting it and he had trouble telling his brother and father that he loved them, (even though he did, and loved them very much.) Those qualities are what makes a character human and respectable; perhaps Millar should learn from Robinson's crafting of characters. You don't have to have a VERY SERIOUS problem with alcohol to be "human."

Since dropping this title, I feel nothing but relief. I don't have to wait MONTHS AT A TIME for a single issue and I don't have to put up with stories so widely perceived as being good. Sorry, folks, but this writing... it's shocking, it's entertaining, it's "cool" but it's not "good."

Thank you, Doug, for presenting this argument so well and so much clearer than I ever could have. I can't WAIT to hear more of your thoughts.

[Reed Richards]

frankly, you're dead wrong but i dont have the time to properly disect your argument.

In short, the Ultimate universe is not supposed to be business as usual for our heroes, and I have no idea why you want it to be.

Why should the Avengers be a team of lesser powered heroes who all always seem to get along. these characters are interesting and have DEPTH-- surprisingly enough. Its one thing that so many in the regular Marvel U lack (and i love the Marvel U-- ive been reading comics most of my life)

[Cogliostro]

Ultimates isn't the the normal Avengers. Ultimate takes the regular Marvel characters and puts a new spin on them which Ultimates has done, if you don't like it thats good. I'm sure your not the only one but many like it and I'm not all to sure why you have posted such a long topic on why to not like a book. I would much rather read about someone who likes a book and trying to get me to read it and help the world of comic readers expand but hey thats my opinion as well.

[Jin Kazama]

First off, that was quite the read. A good one at that. Very well done.

I'm sort of the exact oposite of that, though, so maybe I'm not the one to be defending the series. I actually never got into The Avengers, and love The Ultimates. That being said, I don't know the years of backlog and all that about the original Marvel U superteam, so I dunno.

I noticed, though, that you talk about the character's personal problems alot, as if it's one of the book's strong flaws. That in mind, though, I couldn't disagree more.

To me, it makes the book more human. Take your reference of Tony Stark's alcoholism. If you were going up against this massive, indestructable chaos machine, wouldn't you need to be a tad less than sober to fight it? Same with Captain America. That fight he had with Hank Pym was an intentional character flaw. The guy's in a place out of his time. To him, he was supposed to do that. Defend a woman that couldn't defend herself.

Like I said, maybe I'm not the best person to argue points. But, at least in my case, most of the "flaws" you mention with the title (aside from the awful delays, which I agree 100% with) are the exact same things that have me wanting to read the title when I get it.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Great column! It articulates a huge amount of the grievances I have with The Ultimates.

I took the time to read Mark Millar's run on The Authority (or at least what made it to the 2nd TPB), and decided it was the comic book equivalent of The Ice Storm or Boogie Nights: a well-written, well-produced, well-directed artistic work about a bunch of people I really didn't like. What I've read of The Ultimates just makes me think that it's the same, only moreso.

I think Kurt Busiek at his worst on Avengers did better than Millar does on Ultimates, and Geoff Johns' run on the title so far has been exemplary. Making character interactions complex and tangled does not mean making everybody involved a total jerk.

As I've said before, if I want to read about a bunch of power-hungry, demented jerks causing incalculable property damage and killing people while on ego trips of titanic proportions, I'll go read a newspaper. When I read a superhero comic, I want to read about heroes I like, with traits and characteristics I can aspire to. I don't want to read them to feel superior to them and their completely messed up psyches.

My other big issue with Ultimates (and with Mark Millar's work in general) is that it's hailed as being groundbreaking and innovative, when Alan Moore was doing all this and more nearly 20 years ago.

-- Ed/Ace

[HelloKittyKat]

My main complaint with The Ultimates is the slow pace of storytelling (I recently bought the trade, so I haven't had to agonize for months over late issues). We have five issues for the team to fully come together and they fight . . . The Hulk ? Back in the 60's Stan Lee could cram so much action and plot developement into one issue it'd make your ears bleed. i'm not too keen on the celebrity cameos, although it is fun reading the book and hearing Sam Jackson's voice coming out of Nick Fury.

As for they way the characters are portrayed . . . I'm not that bothered by it that much, and I'm one of those people who likes heroes to be upstanding citizens, Still, i do get the urge to punch Ultimate Tony Stark in the face. Just because it's a new continuity, akin to Post-Crisis DC, doesn't mean the characters need to be insanely flawed.

I have no urge to pick up other titles in the Ultimate line; right now I'm focusing on building up my nonexistant regular Marvel Universe collection. Yet after reading less-than-favorable reviews of the early adventures of the Avengers, I decided to go with the Ultimates instead. I think I'll stick with the title . . . that is, unless it takes five years for this government-sponsered group of emotional misfits to fight the likes of Baron Zemo or Kang instead of bossy girlfriends or Prozac-addicted husbands.

[BlackoutCreature]

I never understood the appeal of the "Ultimate Revolution" that Marvel is doing right now. I love Ultimate Spider-Man, but never really got into Ultimate X-Men and the Ultimates. I always classified them as 2 of the best written stories about characters i could care less about. Dont get me wrong, i love seeing characters changed (even very drastically changed) when moved into a new continuity, but these characters r just so unlikable. Its like they found every flaw imaginable in the original characters, amplified it a million degrees, and let them overshadow there good points. Im not asking for 60's/silver age "heroes can do no wrong" characters. I love flaws and think they add a lot of depth and emotion, and gives it a genuine real world feel. But the Ultimate universe has just taken this to such an extreme that i really have no reason to root for the "heroes". And if i dont care if the "heroes" live or die, why should i care about the book? Its not a matter of The Ultimates "ruining" the Avengers for me, its a matter of The Ultimates not giving me a reason to care about them.

[wonderfly]

Well, I've never picked up any of the Ultimate line of books, but after reading this article, there's no way I'm going to pick up The Ultimates.

Why would I want to pick up a series that features horrible, distorted caricatures of my favorite Marvel Heroes? It's like others have said: somethings are just written for shock value, and have little weight besides that.

Now I'm going back to reading Geoff John's Avengers. :)

[Jor-El]

Wonderfly,

Although I don't read the book and don't especially want to, (the wait ALONE is enough to keep me from the book,) I would encourage you to make your own decision on the book and not just listen to a small number of comic readers on a message board. If you like it, that's fine—my friends do, and I still talk to them. :p The book's just not for me, it's not for Ace or Doug, and whoever else. But you might like it and that doesn't make you bad, nor does it mean you have little or no taste.

Go to Borders and try the trade paperback of the first few issues. After you've read it through, if you want to not like it, that's great! :) But I'd still encourage you to have read it before you make any judgment on it.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I like the Ultimates. The last issue wasn't that good, though, and the ending of Ultimate War redefined anticlimax.

[wonderfly]

Wonderfly,

Although I don't read the book and don't especially want to, (the wait ALONE is enough to keep me from the book,) I would encourage you to make your own decision on the book and not just listen to a small number of comic readers on a message board. If you like it, that's fine—my friends do, and I still talk to them. :p The book's just not for me, it's not for Ace or Doug, and whoever else. But you might like it and that doesn't make you bad, nor does it mean you have little or no taste.

Go to Borders and try the trade paperback of the first few issues. After you've read it through, if you want to not like it, that's great! :) But I'd still encourage you to have read it before you make any judgment on it.

I agree that you should read a book yourself, and THEN decide if it's worth it, but I also would say we take opinions into consideration when deciding whether to buy a book. I for one pay attention to which movies are getting good reviews by the critics, and while I won't let that ALONE determine whether or not I see a movie, it is a factor.

The same can be said for comic books: I will say up till this point, all the gossip I've heard around the comic shop is that The Ultimates is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Now I for one have yet to buy a single Ultimate Universe title, (I just don't like the concept) but I thought about picking up an issue of The Ultimates...but then I was starting to get warning signs just by seeing how slow new issues of The Ultimates were coming out: it was bringing back memories from the mid90's of Wizard magazine, (which, I'll note is a strong backer of The Ultimates) wherein each issue they bragged on and on about how great a series from Image comics was, only for me to have to wait 6 months to get the latest issue of that series, to see what all the fuss is about. In other words: I think half the buzz is all about the artwork, but that's not enough for me to pick up a title.

And so now I've read this review, which I think does a good job of tearing apart some of the myths of what makes this a great series. I am indeed vary wary of a title that does stuff for shock value alone.

Answer me this, those of you who read the Ultimates: did you ever end an issue and walk away with a sense of ...grandness? That you've just witnessed another great chapter in the lives of what it all means to be a superhero? Cause it's that special feeling that I look for when I read a comic book. It's very similar in nature to that feeling that you get after walking out of a good movie: You feel like you've just been a part of something grand. It just sounds to me from this review that the Ultimates leaves you feeling shocked. So I ask: what feelings did you have upon ending an issue of the Ultimates?

[Jor-El]

Answer me this, those of you who read the Ultimates: did you ever end an issue and walk away with a sense of ...grandness? That you've just witnessed another great chapter in the lives of what it all means to be a superhero? Cause it's that special feeling that I look for when I read a comic book.?Read STARMAN.

I'd "sold" the tale to emeraldarcher, Reed Richards, TheCondimentKing and others. Ask any one of them. :) If you're looking for a sense of grandeur and magnificence, STARMAN is it. Contact me via AIM for more info.

[Domino]

I simply think of Ultimates as Marvel's Watchmen, so I agree with what Ace said; Alan Moore did this 20 years ago.

But, I don't think all the Ultimate books are a waste of time. I think Ultimate Spider-Man is in the top five books coming out right now. I think also that it's kid-friendly, and that's important to the survival of our hobby.

I actually like posting on the comic book forum here because it's not completely taken over by cynical people who have nothing constructive to say. It's generally populated by people who love comics and have taken the lessons of our beloved heroes to heart.

[ZorBrak]

I'm not sure what I think of the Ultimates. The ultimate universe is supposed to modernize things, and frnakly a lot of people do a lot of scummy things nowadays, it's quite accurately refelctive of the corruption in our society but also shows how people must get beyond their shortcomings to do what is right I think. So I think I enjoy the comic somewhat. I am trying to keep up with the entire ultimate universe so I'll keep reading it :).


now to go off topic a bit....


I agree with domino about the population of toonzone and the comic forum here...to sound self glorifying for us all for a minute-Basically everyone here are just generally nicer and more social than the fat idiots you could find on forums strictly devoted to comics or other things. Those forums are often filled with condescending dorks who sit locked away in dark rooms with their sodas and pizza boxes throwing out insults to "n00bs" and acting arrogant towards people they've never even met just because they think the world is mean to them. The sadest part is that those are some of society's most pathetic people yet they theink they are above everyone else. For example, a0 certain forum I go to for video encoding help is filled with cocky, mean, geeks who just love to put down others. (if anyone recognizes the name "Queued" you know what forums I'm talking about (how this jerk gets to be an admin I'll never know...) ) Anyways yeah, good people here :)....and darkhorse.com has nice people on their forums too.:)

[superprime]

I have to disagree. At first I had the same problem with Ultimates that the author of this article did which is that I was comparing the actions of the Ultimate characters to those of their Avengers counterparts. Like Hank Pym would never do this or thats completely out of character for Captain America. After I thought about it for awhile I realized that it's not really fair to do that because when you really start looking at them the Ultimates are different characters from the Avengers. They have some of the same characteristics of the Avengers but they also have alot of different ones. Regular Hank Pym was mentally unstable for a short time and eventually got better but Ultimate Hank Pym has been unstable for quite awhile and his behavior is alot more erratic and violent. Basically what I'm saying is that I think if you just try to forget about what the characters are like in the regular Marvel Universe and try to think of the Ultimate version as a completely different character I think you'll enjoy it alot more.

[BeastBoyWonder]

I wanted to stay out of this topic, but I just wanted to breifly mention a couple things: I agree with Doug Smith's assessment of the Ultimates, and I feel that just because many members of this board are not avid comic readers, as animation enthusiasts many of us still appreciate engaging and entertaining storytelling. I don't think that you have to be a comic book geek to apprecaite a good comic, just like you don't have to be crazy about animation to enjoy a good animated show or movie.

[Rand]

A few posts have been deleted from this thread for its flammatory (or response to such) content, and one post has had the quote edited out.

Continue to have fun debating/discussing Doug Smith's column... there's no right or wrong answer, but please be civil to your fellow posters. Thanks!

[Doug Smith]

Thanks for all of the feedback people. I encourage responses to my columns, even if (maybe even especially if) you don't agree with me.

Cogliostro - you have a very valid point, and in the future, you will see more positive spins from me. I plan to talk about how I think "Ultimate Spider-Man" gets it right where Millar's two books gets it wrong, and in the very near future, I will be adding a short feature to the end of each column called "Under Your Rader" where I recommend a good book that seems to be getting ignored.

That said, I also won't be backing away from the occasional negative column either!

For those that mentioned that this message board is a more "friendly" place: I feel your pain my friends. I've left a few message boards behind in the past because of rampant negativity; in fact, the next column to be published just may be one that you find interesting. :cool:

Also, since I've just moved over here from my original home at Joequesada.com, I feel I should mention that JQ is a fairly friendly place that actually has a strong community feel. Joe does an admirable job of keeping the troll ratio low, but I really think the people there just do a pretty good job of policing themselves.

Thanks again to all of you!

[Cogliostro]

Thanks for all of the feedback people. I encourage responses to my columns, even if (maybe even especially if) you don't agree with me.

Cogliostro - you have a very valid point, and in the future, you will see more positive spins from me. I plan to talk about how I think "Ultimate Spider-Man" gets it right where Millar's two books gets it wrong, and in the very near future, I will be adding a short feature to the end of each column called "Under Your Rader" where I recommend a good book that seems to be getting ignored.

Also, since I've just moved over here from my original home at Joequesada.com, I feel I should mention that JQ is a fairly friendly place that actually has a strong community feel. Joe does an admirable job of keeping the troll ratio low, but I really think the people there just do a pretty good job of policing themselves.

Thanks again to all of you!

Thats good to hear. I myself was/am a member of Joequesada's boards but haven't been there in awhile and I was a member here first. Look forward to more topics from you, you've managed to bring some discussion to the comic boards and thats something I always welcome. Speaking of welcome's. Welcome to the boards! :)

[Doug Smith]

Thats good to hear. I myself was/am a member of Joequesada's boards but haven't been there in awhile and I was a member here first. Look forward to more topics from you, you've managed to bring some discussion to the comic boards and thats something I always welcome. Speaking of welcome's. Welcome to the boards! :)

Thank you!

Oh, and to echo a point made above: don't take my dislike of the Ultimates as a reason not to buy the book. If you have any interest in it, check it out and form your own opinion. If you have no interest in it...well then of course spend your money as you choose! :p

I'm just a guy on the internet with an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...they're just like @ssholes - everybody has one, and everybody else's stinks!

[wonderfly]

Read STARMAN.

I'd "sold" the tale to emeraldarcher, Reed Richards, TheCondimentKing and others. Ask any one of them. :) If you're looking for a sense of grandeur and magnificence, STARMAN is it. Contact me via AIM for more info.

Oh, I know all about Starman. :) I was there when that book first came out. I admit, it's been a few years since I picked up that title.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when i pick up a book, I want to feel the depth...larger than life...just like the superhero's. That's why I'm not much into Vertigo style stories, or just plain...Adult comics, (for lack of a better word). And from description, The Ultimates is starting to sound pretty Adult in nature. :cool:

[PeterFries]

Doug, you expressed your subjective take on The Ultimates pretty well, but I personally can't identify at all. I love the book, but probably the difference between us is that I was never a fan of The Avengers. Millar made these characters interesting, modern and relevant to me, and the stories actually have some meat to them, delving into much greyer areas than the black and white mainstream world of superheroics and/or supervillainy. To me, that somehow makes the preposterous, repetitive stories we've seen over and over since 1940 seem that much more "real".

The Ultimates is a harsh look at the ethics of national defense, warfare, hero worship, jingoist patriotic fervor and a number of other topics that resonate especially with current events, with people trying to spin an invasion on a national mass media stage for public relations purposes. The "heroes" seem to manage to commit acts of heroism to occasionally justify their power and prestige almost in spite of their status.

[Tad Ghostall]

I don't read the Ultimates because it tries to utilize characters who ran out of steem 30 years ago.

[Doug Smith]

Doug, you expressed your subjective take on The Ultimates pretty well, but I personally can't identify at all. I love the book, but probably the difference between us is that I was never a fan of The Avengers. Millar made these characters interesting, modern and relevant to me, and the stories actually have some meat to them, delving into much greyer areas than the black and white mainstream world of superheroics and/or supervillainy. To me, that somehow makes the preposterous, repetitive stories we've seen over and over since 1940 seem that much more "real".

The Ultimates is a harsh look at the ethics of national defense, warfare, hero worship, jingoist patriotic fervor and a number of other topics that resonate especially with current events, with people trying to spin an invasion on a national mass media stage for public relations purposes. The "heroes" seem to manage to commit acts of heroism to occasionally justify their power and prestige almost in spite of their status.

One of the things that I noticed during the debate that ensued over at the JQ boards on this subject is that, number 1, I don't necessarily dislike the story that Millar is telling. I get his point, and I don't think he's doing a bad job of writing. Number 2, I disagree with his choice of characters, but if I approached it as an "Elseworlds" or "What If?" type book, I wouldn't have as much argument about it.

But, one of the things that I thought the Ultimate Line was going to be, was an updated version of Marvel's classic characters, in an effort to pull in readers who are put off by 40 years of history (like Barry Allen up there). With that mindset, I approached the book as being "The Avengers - but bigger and better". Joe Quesada has said words to the effect of "when people think of Marvel Comics, this is what we want them to think of".

So, it shouldn't have been an "alternate" take on the Avengers, at least not to me. It's being too heavily marketed and pushed - this is an A-list book on Marvel's agenda that is trying to reach the general public, not a mini-series for the hardcore fans. It should have been a new start, but stay true to the core values of the concept (as "Ultimate Spider-Man" does so well). And that's where I really believe Marvel dropped the ball on this one, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I just don't think this is how Marvel should present their finest heroes to the people who don't currently buy Marvel Comics.

But, that's just me... :)

[MattL.]

Frankly, I could not agree with this review more. Ultimates is a festering stinking brew of everything thats currently wrong with the genre. Jeez Mark if you want to write the Authority with every project you do then just go back to the Authority or create another team of scumbag *******s posing as heroes and use those as mouthpeices for your personal political commentary.

Leave the genuine articles alone.

[Hatter]

Well, I don't really have the time to read this entire thread, so I'll just pop in with my opinion...


The way I see it, if you can stand to read The Avengers, then The Ultimates isn't for you.

See, I've never been a fan of superhero team-ups... the JLA, JSA, Avengers, Defenders... they have absolutely no coherence. They don't look like a team, just a bunch of people posing for a picture. And I never really bought how they all just easily take time off from their regular duties to hang out with the team.

The Ultimates, on the other hand, are exactly what you'd get if our modern government tried to set up a superhuman defense group. The immense, costly facility, thousands of vehicles, support troops and staff... it's all what you'd expect. Who mops the floor of the Avengers' mansion?

Maybe I'm biased... I've read very few Avengers issues in my life.
And now that I'm so used to these new Ultimate personalities, I can't see myself ever picking up an issue of Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man, or Thor. I'm just in love with these new, fresh updates.


And one other thing I need to add: why, why, WHY do the characters have to be likeable and upstanding for you to enjoy the book? Why is it such a CRIME to add some flaws to these characters whose personalities have, more or less, remained static for the last few decades?

Everywhere, I'm always reading "I just couldn't get into this comic/movie/novel because the characters were so unlikable/I couldn't relate to anyone".
WHY is this necessary? Is it hard for you to simply observe?
Or is everyone so used to the shining example of the pure, heroic Super Hero that they can't stand any deviance from it?

[PeterFries]

I just don't think this is how Marvel should present their finest heroes to the people who don't currently buy Marvel Comics.

But, that's just me... :)

I always thought the idea of the Ultimate comics was to present more stripped-down versions of the heroes in a modern way to make them accessible in the same way that a movie version of the characters would. To me, the Ultimates is a decent look at what a filmed version of the Avengers might be like, showing that it could actually be clever and witty and have some meat to it.

I have to admit that I haven't really ever picked up any of the other Ultimate titles, though, and when Millar leaves the series I won't be buying it any more. I never picked up his Ultimate X-Men because it seemed kind of superfluous with Morrison already doing a sort of Ultimate, movie franchise-like take on the characters.

[The Xenos]

Well, just read the article. I'd say I got the same complants. At the same time, these screwed up versions of characters we love can also be fun. This is Miller's 'What If' or 'Jut Imagine...'. If you would be interested in reading mostly unlikable and quite flawed versions of these characers, then it can be interesting. He takes these iconic figures and turns them into flawed heros. Maybe untimatelly (no pun inteneded) these jerks will work out their problems.

Heck, even Miller's Authority was more likeable than these jerks. At least they felt like a family or at least a team to some extent. Even the fact that they're all jerks doesn't bug me. People putting this book on a pedestal and even those who are crazy enough to say it's as good and could replace the regualr Avengers. HELL NO! I think without the contrast of the heros we know, the exsiting goodness, this "funhouse mirror version" would not hold water.

At the same time, the story is solid and they are well written characers. They're pretty pathertic characters and damn psycho, but it is interesting. Now not everyone wants their heros to be almost villians and they should not be held up as your typical comic book heros, but I can't help but enjoy the book in it's twisted way.

Plus, yes, the artwork is damn good.

-Xenos

[Jade_GL]

Ok, I really liked the article. It was well written and I think all of your points were just spot on.

As a person who had no experience with the Avengers, I find this book boring, slow, and the characters are unlikable and dull. I had no preconcieved notions about the title when it came out. In fact, I was completely looking forward to it after reading and enjoying Ultimate Spider-man and Ultimate X-Men. Somethings about it just leave a horrible taste in my mouth, and I think that you articulated all of them perfectly.

Not only that, but I feel that I've read this before after reading things like Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen. To tell you the truth, I like those types of comics, but I feel that something has fallen short in Ultimates. Something just doesn't click on the same level as those other comics do. It doesn't work, it just is a trial to get through each issue.

Not only that, but the stories are drawn out and issues are late. This just compounds the problems I have with it.

Anyway, I also have to comment on the new storyline with the aliens. I hate it. I feel like I am getting a rehash of the White Martian storylines from JLA. I know it's different, but it just completely lacks authenticity for me in the universe they are trying to create. If you want your comic to be gritty, why bring in aliens? It just confuses me with what direction the book wants to go in.

Anyway, the article hit all of the points perfectly. Great job. :D

[Conekiller]

Very well writted article with some valid points and arguments. I can't really chime in cause I haven't read any of Ultimates save for the covers.

The only problem I had with the article was finding it on the front "NEWS" page. If I'm not mistaken that was an "opinion" article not a news article.