Mad Love

[BarryAlen]

I watched Mad Love recently and thought of something. Wouldn't It have been a cool twist if the Joker had actually told Harley the truth about his past (the circus) and batman was just manipulating her to get out of the situation.

[DianaGohan]

It would have been diffrent, but I'm not sure it would have been better, since that would have gone against the Joker's characters to actually play straight with a person when he can just play dirty and get the same basic results. If he had actually been part of the circus, that would kind of take away from the mystery of his past and ruin his character a bit as well. At least that's what I think.

[Digu Volz]

It certainly would have been interesting, if not confusing. But the Joker's farly predictable for a crazy guy. There's a method to his madness and whatnot.

[Barb Gordon]

I agree. It would have been an interesting twist, but not really fit the Joker. Some of what makes him great is that he does have somewhat of a method to his madness. Also, another fun part about the Joker is that his origin is hard to pin down. We've been given different versions, but none of them are the real truth..are they? that's the fun in it, wondering when or if he'll ever tell the truth of his past...and whether at this point he'd still know it himself!

~Barb

[TimTwoFace]

Thing is, we don't really know anything about the Joker's past. We know that he was a hitman as part of the Valestra mob, and then had a nice acid bath a few years later, but beyond that, he keeps his past a secret - or he doesn't even remember to begin with.

The floundering back and forth between different stories worked perfectly in MAD LOVE, because it showed just how manipulative the Joker is, especially with doormats like Harley. I personally wouldn't have WANTED to see Batman trick Harley by lying to her; he may be tough, but he doesn't fight dirty, especially with those with fragile mindsets like Harley had at that particular moment.

-Tim

[James]

Thing is, we don't really know anything about the Joker's past. We know that he was a hitman as part of the Valestra mob, and then had a nice acid bath a few years later, but beyond that, he keeps his past a secret - or he doesn't even remember to begin with.

The floundering back and forth between different stories worked perfectly in MAD LOVE, because it showed just how manipulative the Joker is, especially with doormats like Harley. I personally wouldn't have WANTED to see Batman trick Harley by lying to her; he may be tough, but he doesn't fight dirty, especially with those with fragile mindsets like Harley had at that particular moment.

-Tim

I agree with this guy *points vaguely at Tim*. I think leaving it open lets you decide or speculate how manipulative both the Joker and the Batman are. You never know which is the true manipulator here - all you do know is Harley is caught in the middle potentially being controlled by both factions. I would LIKE to have known, but I see why they left the detail out.

[Terminatah]

What circus?

-Terminatah

[Terminatah]

The Cirque du Soleil?

-Terminatah

[Maxie Zeus]

I'm not sure people know what you're asking. (I don't, at least.) The book/episode never revealed which circus the Joker was talking about.

Are you wondering what people are talking about when they talk about "the circus"? The Joker first started manipulating Harley (back when she was a psychiatrist) by telling her a bathetic story of the time his father took him to the circus, laughed at the clowns, and how he beat his son (the Joker) up when the kid tried imitating the circus clowns.

Or are you asking something else?

[Terminatah]

Are you wondering what people are talking about when they talk about "the circus"? The Joker first started manipulating Harley (back when she was a psychiatrist) by telling her a bathetic story of the time his father took him to the circus, laughed at the clowns, and how he beat his son (the Joker) up when the kid tried imitating the circus clowns.That's the one! I only saw this episode once, years ago. I think the best origins for the Joker are the most tragic ones. Because you know he's only laughing on the outside. His smile is just skin deep. If you could see inside, he's really crying. You might join him for a weep.

-Terminatah

[TimTwoFace]

Ya know, there's no proof that Joker's story was actual fact, and that's the whole reason for the discussion, here. He was, for all intents and purposes, just pulling stories out of his rear to get a certain reaction or result out of someone. Either that, or he just likes to tell stories - he does have an ego, after all, and without an audience, the Joker is nothing. He likes it when people listen to him.

-Tim

[Maxie Zeus]

That's the one!

Glad we got that cleared up for ya! :)

I've been thinking about the twist that BarryAlen suggested. It's an interesting suggestion, but it would be a major change to the story.

Mad Love is about how the Joker ruined Harley's life by seducing her. Now, either he seduced her by telling the truth, or he seduced her by telling her lies.

If he told her a lie, then we get the story as it was actually written: Harley is just the Joker's tool. He would say anything to get her under his thumb, knows exactly what button to push, and is tickled by the cruelty of getting her with the lie.

If he tells her the truth, then it suggests that he has been honest with someone for once in his life -- and further suggests that even he needs someone to confide in and support him. The fact remains that he is exploiting her, and that she is a fool for being exploited; but the tragedy is all the more horrible because the virtues of love and compassion would be there -- it wouldn't just be Harley loving and pitying the Joker, but the Joker loving her and acknowledging that he needs her, too.

As it is, though, Mad Love is told entirely from the perspective of Harley, and she can't know if what the Joker says is true or not. If you were going to have the Joker tell the truth to her, you would need to tell the story from his point of view, so that you would know that it is the truth and would know why he would have told her the truth. Also, you would need to see and appreciate the damage that Batman would do to this relationship by lying to Harley. It might be necessary for him to tell such a lie, but it will still damage (or even destroy) the one decent aspect of the Joker-Harley relationship.

So I don't think you could have simply tacked on the "surprise" twist ending of showing that Batman lied while the Joker told the truth -- that would be like tacking on the old "it was just a dream" ending, a twist for the sake of a twist. The story would have to be rethought from the ground up. Still, such a variant would have made for an interesting story, and would have made the Joker-Harley relationship even more interesting.

[DKstormyknight]

that would be like tacking on the old "it was just a dream" ending, a twist for the sake of a twist. The story would have to be rethought from the ground up. Still, such a variant would have made for an interesting story, and would have made the Joker-Harley relationship even more interesting.I agree with you on both points. I don't think it would have worked, because like you said it would be a "Twist for the sake of a twist" and that just isn't as good. Also it makes the "Good Guy" look bad and the "Bad Guy" look good. That I don't like. Although I do like Harley and Joker in BTAS so it would have been cool as far as there relationship is conserned.



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