What would make Batman 'give up' his war against crime?

[Rand]

SJJ and I have been argu-... excuse me, -discussing-... Batman's motives and rationale for having an 'army' at his fingertips. It's my belief that he didn't go out looking for it, nor does he -want- one, it just happened to come into his arms. SJJ's got a bit of a more cynical look on that.

See the thread here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68515

The main argument between us, it seems, is that SJJ believes that Batman could 'convince' people to stop their war against crime. Whereas I am of the belief that, just like Batman, these people are committed and 'born' to it. If nothing (or nearly nothing) can stop Batman in his crusade... how could he stop -them-?

I remember reading a story... I think it was <I>Batman: Son of the Demon</I>, where Batman actually considered giving up. He had married Talia, she'd gotten pregnant, and he realised that famliy was more important to him that some stupid war. Talia, dutiful daughter of the Demon that she is... when she realised that Batman changed because of her pregnancy, lied to him and said that she lost it.

So far, that's the only thing that I've seen (realistically) change Batman's opinion on his war. Sure, he's had his back broken, and he took some time off. Sure, his city was destroyed by a quake, and when Washington rejected his proposal, he (once again) took some time off. But he never quit. As he said in JLA... "I'll sleep when I'm dead."

Bearing this in mind, it seems that the only way to make his acolytes 'change' their opinions, would be to do something sneaky, manipulative, or underhanded. Perhaps have Huntress fall in love, get married. Nightwing finally tie the knot with Oracle, and get sent to an island where they couldn't get off. Chop Tim Drake's fingers off so that he can't type or fight.

I don't see Batman being able to 'stop' his acolytes from following his path, not without crossing his own moral/ethical codes. After all, if he could stop someone from taking the path... Alfred would have used it on him -ages- ago. Batman would have stopped his rogues gallery from going psycho. Etc, etc.

Anyways. This is just an idea for a debate that I'm pulling out of the Batman #612 Review. What do y'all think?

[Sharklady]

According to the pilot ep of 'Batman Beyond', what it would take is Batman developing a heart condition so disabling that he has to fall back on using firearms.

[Frank White]

The grave

[Anthonynotes]

What Sharklady said---some debilitating medical condition that even his bucks/world's ultra-high-technology can't fix would be what'd force him to retire IMO (I'd argue just growing too old for the role, but in a world where 80-year-old guys in wildcat costumes can keep beating up guys 50 years their junior, let along slug it it out *with* Batsy himself in some "ultimate fighting" thingamajig... (shrug)).

-B.

[Joe Tully]

I think that if he felt like his fight was completely pointless he'd quit. Granted, he knows that it's a never-ending fight now, but he's motivated by that rather than depressed by it. I think that if he were to do something like, say, spend a few years trying to take down a mob boss, and finally do it only to see him replaced by someone else, then something like that could become depressing. Anything like that which could give him the sense that he's not having any real effect. I think that villains like The Joker might have a chance at making him feel this way. There are certain villains such as Joker and Riddler who seem to exist solely to irritate Batman, raising the question of whether they would bother anyone if Batman wasn't around.

It would really take a lot of depression to get him to the point where he'd want to give up, but I think that it could happen.

Also, I think that if he felt that the only way to continue fighting crime would be to break his own moral code, he would quit. This is implied by Sharklady's post but it could happen in other ways as well. I think that guilt from breaking his code would, in a different way, cause the kind of depression that would make him give up. Old age or severe, permanent injury would also make him question his ability to accomplish any change in Gotham.

[James]

Originally posted by Rand
SJJ and I have been argu-... excuse me, -discussing-... Batman's motives and rationale for having an 'army' at his fingertips. It's my belief that he didn't go out looking for it, nor does he -want- one, it just happened to come into his arms. SJJ's got a bit of a more cynical look on that.


Oo! A debate! Yes, I am a little more cynical - perhaps it's the cold Brit in me. :) It's not a popular view, but I think that's because it's not a nice one. I can see it - although I can equally understand why others - like Rand here - see's otherwise. All interpretation.



The main argument between us, it seems, is that SJJ believes that Batman could 'convince' people to stop their war against crime. Whereas I am of the belief that, just like Batman, these people are committed and 'born' to it. If nothing (or nearly nothing) can stop Batman in his crusade... how could he stop -them-?


Great point. I'm not sure I'm convinced that these people were destined to go on the crusade as he. Say, for instance, he can't stop them, as you suggest. That with all his resources, influence and power, he can't bring them off the treadmill - should he have involved them in the first place? Why did he involve them? Because it was the only path they could take other than crime? I don't buy that.

People suffer death and tragedy everyday and deal with their anger. They don't suffer the need to vent via a cape and cowl. I don't believe that these people just so happened to be special cases that go against this rule.

They joined his quest because he wanted them to. He let them. Their blood is on his hands. He can justify it, but in the end he was not the only route. He needed them. They did not need the route as a vigilante to vent their pain.



I remember reading a story... I think it was <I>Batman: Son of the Demon</I>, where Batman actually considered giving up. He had married Talia, she'd gotten pregnant, and he realised that famliy was more important to him that some stupid war. Talia, dutiful daughter of the Demon that she is... when she realised that Batman changed because of her pregnancy, lied to him and said that she lost it.


Great story - I remember reading it when it came out. :)




Bearing this in mind, it seems that the only way to make his acolytes 'change' their opinions, would be to do something sneaky, manipulative, or underhanded. Perhaps have Huntress fall in love, get married. Nightwing finally tie the knot with Oracle, and get sent to an island where they couldn't get off. Chop Tim Drake's fingers off so that he can't type or fight.


These are ways, lol. But I don't think he'd need to. I could see him using manipulation, light blackmail. He's the world's greatest detective - I really don't believe he would be devoid of finding a way to force his crew to stop the battle.



I don't see Batman being able to 'stop' his acolytes from following his path, not without crossing his own moral/ethical codes. After all, if he could stop someone from taking the path... Alfred would have used it on him -ages- ago. Batman would have stopped his rogues gallery from going psycho. Etc, etc.


As I've been saying in this post, I think Bats is a different case to the others. A very different one, with a different head on his shoulders. The leader of a cause is always far harder to break than the followers.

Fascinating!

EDIT: Some awful typos - my apologies!!

[Barb Gordon]

Either the grave, serious illness, possibly true love, or a lowered crime rate would be the end for the need of a Batman. He's there as long as Gotham needs him, and it always seems to need him. Crime would have to go down drastically for him to even consider stopping. True love could possible do it too, because unlike in his earlier years, he's got an "army" of his own to follow in his stead. He never has to worry about there not being someone to protect Gotham, just whether it's the right one or not. But he's got Oracle, Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin, Spoiler, Azrael, even Huntress, to look over things - and he's used them time and again when things got really busy for him. But he wouldn't give it up willingly unless something important came up. Crime is never going to stop, it's just a part of life. Crime created him, but I don't think crime is something that can be completely eliminated,and thus the need for him will never be entirely eliminated.

~Barb

[Cyber E.]

As others have said before, the only possible thing that could ever stop Batman from breaking the promise he made to his parents the night of their death would be one thing and that thing only. His Death. Earthly bounds (as seen in Batman Beyond) or even true love wouldn't stop him, and that is one opinion I am not going to change.

-aJb

[Bird Boy]

As many have said, there's a couple things that could make him quit.

1) He resorts to guns to finish the fight
2) He falls in love, has kids

Or, my thought

3) Those he loves, dies. Although that might drive him even closer to the edge, if something happened where all of the bat-squad died, then I'd imagine he'd hang it up, as he wouldn't want anymore people to die because of him.

-BB

[Nightwing1221]

Having a heart condition in B.B. never made
him give up being Batman, that made him design the new suit.

Picking up that gun and being ready to use it did. to him at that pointed he became the man that killed his parents.

That would be the one thing that would make him stop. No matter what he does or how he does it he has never become that guy. When he comes to the point that he is, that is when Batman dies.

As far as him allowing Dick and the rest to fight with him, he couldn't stop them. No matter what that need is in them. He could have however harbored them or at least not nurtured them in it.

Like I said in another thread Bruce Wayne needs a Robin because of his parent's death. He also needs a family, but Batman can't have a normal family so they have become his. He could say no he could blackmail or manipulate them into giving up but then he would be without a famiy, and he needs that.

[Rand]

Originally posted by Bird Boy
3) Those he loves, dies. Although that might drive him even closer to the edge, if something happened where all of the bat-squad died, then I'd imagine he'd hang it up, as he wouldn't want anymore people to die because of him.

-BB

I -like- this idea. Hm. He didn't give up (only got more darker) when Jason Todd died, but that was only one person. If his entire 'family' died as well... that would be an interesting twist. Has something happened in a dream sequence with him? I think I remember Scarecrow pulling -something- like that on him before, but I can't remember.

Thing is, I don't really buy the whole Batman Beyond thing. "My" Batman would never use a gun (one of the reasons why the Murderer/Fugitive storyline was so hokey). "My" Batman would pass the mantle to Grayson first, then Drake (as proved in the Prodigal Son arc). "My" Batman might fall in love, which would -lessen- his need for a war on crime, though it may simply become a lesser priority to him (Son of the Demon). Not that he'd completely sit out on it. Perhaps be more of a consultant, or a puppet master... bit like Dark Knight Returns.

Batman is such a ... tragic figure, you know? I remember reading an issue where he was hanging with Nightwing, and he was saying... he sees his city, one day, glittering, shining, completely crime-free... but him not in it. In fact... *goes to dig up the issue* Ah, here it is. Detective Comics #725.

"When my parents died I looked at the years ahead. And all I could see was this city.

"Brighter and cleaner than I'd ever known it. And I wanted to make it that place. I wanted to sacrifice my future -- my life to make it a city -- where what happened to my parents would be ... unimaginable.

"And when I looked at that shining city -- I never saw myself in it. As if I'd be long gone when it became that perfect place.

"Now Gotham is gone. And I'm still here."

AHA! And this is where it comes up again.

Grayson: Do you think you'll ever give it up?

Wayne: I'll be too old someday. If I'm lucky. And you?

Grayson: Not me. I've found my place in the world.

Wayne: Bludhaven?

G: Not just that. I was a leader for years and it nearly tore me apart.

W: You like operating alone.

G: Yeah. I don't know how you've stood the strain of responsibility. Me. And Time. And...

W: You can say his name.

I should have never made the offer to Jason. I ignored the warning signs. I was arrogant to think I could turn him into you. I'll never make that mistake again.

G: Where does Jean Paul fit in with that? You thought you could turn him into you.

W: He was driven. I didn't know it was by madness.

G: Didn't you think I was good enough to be you?

W: You're better than me, Dick.

G: What did you say? (I sort of echoed that here too when reading. Heh.)

W: It's like you said. Half of your life isn't a masquerade. I let this mask take over my identity. I am Batman. I always will be. I've left myself nothing else. Robin became an extension of who you are. Nightwing even more so. For me the mantle of the Bat has become a hiding place.

So, SJJ... *nudge nudge wink wink* I believe I have conclusively ended our debate. NYAH NYAH! ;)

Grayson was born to it. If Wayne didn't teach him, Grayson would have been doing the Catman (JSA) thing. Barbara Gordon... given her background, can you expect her NOT to take up the role, eventually? Drake... well, he might have become like the Beetle. Jason Todd is debatable. Azrael... he, again, was brought into the system as a child. Couldn't run from it. Same with Cassandra. Huntress might have patterned her behaviour after Batman, but she, too, would have eventually taken that path.

Batman doesn't "understand" happiness. You know that when you see him try and deal with Babs and Grayson hooking up. He's happy for them, but he can't... express it. Not even his approval. Something like that isn't something he can manufacture. He's a creature of darkness, not of the light.

The argument that he shouldn't have involved them... well, in half of those cases, they already WERE involved. Huntress. Cassandra. Azrael.

Batman -is- a different case. He's the 'first.' He's the 'best' even. He's the one they all aspire to, the one they seek approval from. But the leader doesn't have the power to say who will or won't follow his path. He can only limit the people who enter his club. That's about it.

[Theking]

Well I tell ya, I would have said that nothing would make him give up the fight but Calico has ruined me on that. I think if he fell in love like this (This love story) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28656) then maybe yes he would give it all up.

But he is very involved in crime fighting witch would make it very hard to give up.

So I guess I would say that the only way he gives it up is true love. (it is the strongest bond ya know :p )

TheKing

[Sharklady]

> Thing is, I don't really buy the whole Batman Beyond thing. "My" Batman would never use a gun... <

In fairness, it should be mentioned that he didn't *plan* on using a gun. His heart condition felled him at a very inopportune moment; snatching up the revolver was the only defense available to him.

[Nightwing1221]

Batman never used the gun, but he thought about it. At that moment he became weak and the man who murdered his parents.

Love, would be more motivation for Batman. He would want Gotham to be safer for his family.

So I think his efforts would increase, if not than he would be more of an Oracle type giving orders and information from the Batcave to his "Knights" have them fight with him behind the scenes, but never really giving up.

The same thing would happen if he got too old or too ill to actually fight. So his fight would not end, he would just fight it differently.

But the question was....

What would make Batman "give up" his war against crime?

I still feel that would be him becoming the man that created him. Nothing else but death would do that.

[James]

Originally posted by Rand

So, SJJ... *nudge nudge wink wink* I believe I have conclusively ended our debate. NYAH NYAH! ;)


Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what you've won. You are the one who brought up the hypothesis that Batman couldn't give up the war as the basis to the previous argument that he couldn't stop his companion's fight.

I said that his struggle to his companion's is entirely different and certainly never implied that he could give up - that was you who said that. So all you've done - in my eyes - is found an excellent quote which backs up your opinion. I don't think I've really offered any points one way or the other on possibities when he would give up the mantle...



Grayson was born to it. If Wayne didn't teach him, Grayson would have been doing the Catman (JSA) thing. Barbara Gordon... given her background, can you expect her NOT to take up the role, eventually? Drake... well, he might have become like the Beetle. Jason Todd is debatable. Azrael... he, again, was brought into the system as a child. Couldn't run from it. Same with Cassandra. Huntress might have patterned her behaviour after Batman, but she, too, would have eventually taken that path.


From quoting we are in conjecture. I don't think any of this is definite. He did not save them he either enlisted or inspired them.



Batman doesn't "understand" happiness. You know that when you see him try and deal with Babs and Grayson hooking up. He's happy for them, but he can't... express it. Not even his approval. Something like that isn't something he can manufacture. He's a creature of darkness, not of the light.


A good point, not sure where it leads except I think that's the point that he makes about Supes in Hush. He sees Supes as the good man as he's kept that open compassion - a trait that Bruce either buried or lost. Bruce is just and he cares too. But he is not a compassionate soul - I think Loeb was trying to say that this is Bruce's tragic path and sometimes he envies Clark for the compassion he shares. With Selena very much in Bruce's mind, these comparisons feel all the more damning to Bruce.


The argument that he shouldn't have involved them... well, in half of those cases, they already WERE involved. Huntress. Cassandra. Azrael.

Batman -is- a different case. He's the 'first.' He's the 'best' even. He's the one they all aspire to, the one they seek approval from. But the leader doesn't have the power to say who will or won't follow his path. He can only limit the people who enter his club. That's about it. [/B][/QUOTE]