Does the unaltered "The Heckling Hare" exist!

[alstin]

Well, does it exist? Can anyone tell me where to get it? If anyone has it, I may be willing to work out a deal.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by alstin
Well, does it exist? Can anyone tell me where to get it? If anyone has it, I may be willing to work out a deal.

this is an easy one:

NO

[dendawg]

Originally posted by happyheathen


this is an easy one:

NO

Amen.:cool: Most internet rumors started are by people who have way too much time on my hands (not me! :p ) and a vivid imagination.

[alstin]

Did L. S. have it removed from the original copy? Was it destroyed?

[Jack]

It was removed from the original copy, no theatergoers from any era ever saw it. I don't think anyone knows if the missing footage was actually destroyed. It could very well still exist. I don't see why they would keep what would have been considered scrap, though.


Jack:D

[alstin]

I guess you're right. It's not politically incorect, so if they had it, they probably would have past it on T.V.

[The Dork Knight]

It's probably in WB's or The Avery Estates vaults.

[dendawg]

Originally posted by Gotlucky64
It's probably in WB's or The Avery Estates vaults.

If so, I find it hard to believe that it hasn't been pillaged yet.

[Patrick McCart]

There is a GOOD chance of the ending existing:

1. The cartoon was filmed on NITRATE film stock, so Leon didn't have it burned. Burn nitrate and you'll be VERY sorry. I mean DEAD sorry.

2. 3 negatives were made of the cartoon...so I HIGHLY doubt Leon would let it go to waste.

3. Avery was HIGHLY angered by Leon, so Avery's estate is the most likely place to look.

Whenever WB decides to restore their cartoons, they might find a film can labled "HECKLING HARE OUTTAKE DO NOT USE!" with the 3 strips.

Of course, there's a good chance of the ending being re-animated since the restored original negative could be blended easily with new animation.

[J Lee]

I don't think the original ending is around, because the ending as seen on TV for years (until the dubbed versions arrived) is such a poor edit. Someome had to go back in and put in a faux fade-out and the sound cut to the end title music is very choppy, as if they did it with the meat cleaver.

Also, since Leon owned the rights to the cartoon and suspended Tex after he walked out of the studio over the edited ending, odds are Avery never got close to the original negative, if there was one that survived. Clampett maybe, since he inherited Tex's crew and saved everything, but not Avery.

[Jack]

I'm undecided about wether or not it could still exist in some form or another. It could be possible that they saved edited film, but then again, throwing it in a can with no intention of ever using is isn't much different from throwing it in the trash. I do kind of have a feeling that it does still exist, though...

Who would have been film editor at the time? Perhaps he kept it.


Jack:D

[DR. BELCH]

--the original cartoon script? Would that be in the hands of Avery or Schlesinger decendants, if it wasn't thrown away or burned?
One must wonder what was so bad about it if it caused Avery to walk off the lot and Schlesinger to can him....

[dendawg]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
--the original cartoon script?

extremely unlikely, considering that they used storyboards instead.

[hippety hopper]

Its a shame that Tex got fired over such a small thing.
I'm sure him and Leon could have come to some sort of agreement about it!

p.s. I hope if we ever do get a DVD of this cartoon that a speacial feature would be the missing footage.

[Joe Tully]

One must wonder what was so bad about it if it caused Avery to walk off the lot and Schlesinger to can him....

I think that it was not that problem in and of itself...I think that it was just the last in a line of disagreements between the two, and that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But still, yes, it does seem like both sides overreacted.

[Jack]

It's possible that a script exists. My understanding it that they storyboarded everything, then typed up a rather descriptive script for the voice recording sessions. Looneytunes.com has a few old scripts. I don't know about trying to reanimate it, though. It still wouldn't the same because of the new music, voicework, animation, etc.

If they found the real ending, I'd love it if they put it on a DVD, not just as an extra, but actually back in at the end of the cartoon.


Jack:D

[Thad Komorowski]

I don't think Leon burnt it (he couldn't of), I always read that he cut it to ribbons. Also, does anyone find it funny that Adolf Hitler burnt EVERY copy of "Der Fuehrer's Face" he could find? LOL

-Thad:D

[The Dork Knight]

Originally posted by Thad Komorowski
Also, does anyone find it funny that Adolf Hitler burnt EVERY copy of "Der Fuehrer's Face" he could find? LOL

-Thad:D
Where did you hear that?

[PorkyandDaffy]

I haven't heard that myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hitler really did. I bet he also tried to burn RUSSIAN RHAPSODY's film copy if he ever saw it.

[Vdubdavid]

I read it in "The 50 Greatest Cartoons". On "The Heckling Hare", I read that Schlesinger wasn't the one who wanted the ending cut, it was Jack Warner himself! Obviously, Leon didn't want to argue. I just bet the ending is in a vault somewhere (that's where they found the original music sessions for "The Carl Stalling Project"!) Besides, the ending was forty feet long! Does anyone think someone had the patience to sit and cut up 3 forty foot pieces of film?

[Jack]

Hitler supposedly had a dislike for Disney, so anything Disney did might have garnered more attention from him. It has something to do with an old 1920s or 1930s Mickey Mouse cartoon in which Mickey fights peg-leg Pete, who is dressed like a german soldier, or something like that.

Hitler did like Disney's "The Three Little Pigs," though.


Jack:D

[Brandon Pierce]

How exactly did the original ending go? I know it has Bugs and Willobee fall off another cliff and Bugs says, "Hold on to your hats folks! Here we go again!" Is that it?!
-Brandon "Smile! You're on Candid Camera!" Pierce

[Nelson]

The Mickey Mouse cartoon that you're thinking of, is the 1929 cartoon short, "THE BARNYARD BATTLE".Where the enemy cats wear German battle helmets.

[Joe Tully]

Yup, Brandon, you're right. Supposedly, Leon had a problem with it since it left the possibility that Bugs would die. Bugs was a relatively new star and Leon didn't want him to "die". In a way, I guess this was a mixed blessing, since most think that Tex went on to do his best work at MGM.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
... Supposedly, Leon had a problem with it since it left the possibility that Bugs would die. Bugs was a relatively new star and Leon didn't want him to "die"...

there is also the theory that the line 'Hang on to...' was the punchline of an off-color/vulgar joke of the day.

If anyone knows the original joke (ask the geezers, discreetly), pls email.

[Pietro]

Originally posted by Jack
Hitler did like Disney's "The Three Little Pigs," though.

That's probably the reason Tex Avery made "Blitz Wolf."
I bet if Hitler ever saw that, he'd burn every copy as well.

-Pietro

[Rob]

Originally posted by happyheathen


there is also the theory that the line 'Hang on to...' was the punchline of an off-color/vulgar joke of the day.

If anyone knows the original joke (ask the geezers, discreetly), pls email.

Yes, I've also heard it was the punchline to a dirty joke, but one that was widespread and very popular. That being the case, you would think SOMEBODY out there would know the rest of the joke...even after all these years.

[Emmanuel Cruz]

Originally posted by Jack
Who would have been film editor at the time? Perhaps he kept it.

Jack

The film editor at that time was Treg Brown.

[PorkyandDaffy]

I also wonder what's so supposedly vulgar about "Hold on to your hats folks, here we go again". Daffy says something similar in DAFFY DUCK AND EGGHEAD, anyway.

[Emmanuel Cruz]

Daffy does say a variation of the phrase in " Daffy Duck and Egghead. " Just before he's about to sing " The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down ," he says, " Hold on to your seats, folks! Here we go again! "

What's vulgar with its variation in " The Heckling Hare? "

[Brandon Pierce]

I highy douby the unaltered ending is available in the Waner Bros. vaults. But, my sensers believe it is located in Tex Avery's vaults if he has one in his possession (bleah! i'm starting to talk like Jeri Ryan!).

[DR. BELCH]

--most of us are saying the same thing: there's a paper trail somewhere. The query is, how to follow it after over 50 years.
As to the "hold on to your hats, folks" dirty joke...there is a style of hat, a derby, which is also a slang term for a particular portion of the female anatomy. Interestingly enough, a similar double entendre occurs in Citizen Kane, as "Rosebud" wasn't only the name of the sled, but the nickname William Hearst (the newspaper mogul on which the titular character was based) gave to that area of his mistress Marion Davies' body. :p
The true story behind the Schlesinger-Avery split may never be fully understood...but I always get the feeling watching his Warner work that Leon blunted his creativity somewhat, and Tex must have resented that badly. Also, he was working on outside projects such as Speaking of Animals (Paramount), which was a direct and probably done-in-spite contract violation. Avery left Warners in 1941 or 1942 and went to MGM, where he was less hamstrung creatively.
Avery wasn't the only director who thought Schlesinger was a horse's butt; I don't believe Jones cared for him either, and liked his replacement, Ed Selzer, even less.
Useless fact: Avery was blind in his left eye.

[Thad Komorowski]

I always heard that Bob Clampett resigned at Warners because Ed Selzer took Leon's place, because he LIKED Leon...

-Thad:D

[Emmanuel Cruz]

Originally posted by Thad Komorowski
I always heard that Bob Clampett resigned at Warners because Ed Selzer took Leon's place, because he LIKED Leon...

-Thad:D ]

WHY?! WHY DID BOB CLAMPETT LEAVE?!

Okay, I'm an idiot. BTW, my three favorite directors didn't say long at WB.

1-Clampett
2-Avery
3-Tashlin

Yes they are my favorite directors. But it's a shame that these 3 talented men didn't stay longer.

[Brandon Pierce]

Speaking of Frank Tashlin, what DID he do after he left Warner Bros.?

[DR. BELCH]

He actually left more than once. After Schlesinger demanded a cut of his "Van Boring" strip revenue, he left in 1933, and returned three years later--with a promotion from animator to director (at only 23).
He left again two years later (a surprised Jones, only about ten years older than Tash himself, was promoted to director), worked for a while as a story editor at Disney, then in 1941 was the head of Screen Gems at Columbia (home of the Three Stooges). Tash left Columbia the following year after creative differences with Harry "White Fang" Cohn and the suits and returned to Warners in 1943. In those two years he produced such memorable shorts as "Puss 'n' Booty" "Scrap Happy Daffy", "Porky Pig's Feat", and "Plan Daffy".
When the war ended Tash left Warners yet again and pursued a career in live action film (his unit was placed his the hands of McKimson). He directed such greats as Jerry Lewis, Bob Hope, and Jayne Mansfield.
He also wrote the children's book The Bear That Wasn't, which was made into a very touching animated short by Jones in 1967.
Avery noted in an interview Tash's habit of watching films and scribbling copious notes, which was considered an eccentricity by the other writers....

[Randy Watts]

In his book on the making and restoration of the 1954 Warner Bros. film "A Star Is Born," Ronald Haver notes longtime Warner Bros. employees as explaining that it was the studio's habit "in those days" to keep deleted or unused material for six months, and then destroy it. That would make it unlikely, I would think, that Avery's original ending for "The Heckling Hare" would still be in the studio's vaults.

Had the film actually been released with the full ending, even had it been withdrawn and cut later, there might be a greater chance of it surviving, via a print tucked away in an archive somewhere.

I have no idea if Avery had prints of his films, but had Schlesinger given them to him, I would expect they would have been final release prints. It seems unlikely that the studio would have run off a single print of "Heckling Hare" for Avery, and then encurred the expense of going back and recutting the film to remove the ending so they could strike release prints.

--Randy

[Sogturtle]

You know as fascinating as the notion of Tex maintaining any such thing as his own personal archives is, the known facts would SEEM to contradict it. Tex and Mike Maltese made reference to Clampett as "the trade rat who kept everything". In his published interviews with Joe Adamson, NO mention is ever made of a surviving unexpurgated version of "The Heckling Hare" or of the cut footage. On the other hand AN original uncut print must have been viewed by Leon and Jack Warner in order for Schlesinger to have ordered the scissoring. Did this lone original print survive??? Heaven only knows... With the anger between Tex and Leon it is extremely unlikely that Tex would have gotten a print of it at all. Did some of the animators fetch their artwork back and sneak it out for posterity?? Possible but unlikely. The survival of the cut Technicolor negative footage (or the lone original print) can be viewed as an animation equivalent of the Holy Grail...

Actually Tex Avery would appear to have been one of two directors who got along really well with Leon Schlesinger (the other being Friz). Tex went so far as to describe Leon as "THE BEST BOSS I EVER WORKED FOR". And he confirmed that he did have complete creative freedom at Schlesinger/Warners. And that contrary to popular opinion he did not have that same creative freedom at MGM but instead had to fight and battle (and even trick) Fred Quimby nearly every inch of the way.

During his stay at "the house of Leon" Tex had a small handful of differences with Schlesinger... These didn't start until in 1940. The first was over the naming of a certain new gray rabbit star whom Tex had created. Tex insisted on "Jack Rabbit" in opposition to Schlesinger's secretary Rose Joseph Horsley's picking up on "Bugs' Bunny". The second would APPEAR to have centered on Tex's "ticked-off-looking" Bugs Bunny in new specially animated titles (this discussed by J. Lee and me in an earlier thread). Leon was so unhappy that the animated Bugs title would disappear immediately and not return till after Schlesinger sold out. The third was Tex's creation of the "Speaking Of Animals" idea and Leon's refusal to be party to it and his then suspending Tex. The first three "Speaking of..." were definitely directed by Tex while still on Leon's payroll (suspended or not he was in clear violation of contract). Which of course brings us to the issue of the truncating of "The Heckling Hare" with its resultant final explosion between Avery and Schlesinger. But that Tex did start and or complete several more cartoons after "Heckling...". It should be noted that THREE of the four problem points between the two men were over one thing... BUGS BUNNY!

On Tashlin... He (with Chuck) seems to be the source most intent on making Schlesinger out as the worst kind of vermin to ever slither on the crust of the earth. Whenever we follow this lead and condemn Leon we need to stop and realize this salient point... Without Leon Schlesinger there would never ever have been a Harman-Ising contract to make cartoons for Warners!! And without H-I there first, then there would have been NO directing career for Friz Freleng, Tex Avery, Bob Clampett, Bob McKimson, Chuck Jones or Mr. Frank Tashlin. (Ditto for NO Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Porky Pig, or even Sniffles or Buddy). Tashlin never got over his antipathy of bosses (Van Buren, Schlesinger etc.) but could never forget for one minute that Leon had sought a piece of HIS income from his comic strip (the clause about everything belonging to Schlesinger while in his employment was quite real). It would be this ongoing anger that Tashlin would use to poison Shamus Culhane's mind against Schlesinger ("don't trust *!^%#!!") and ultimately cause Culhane to quit rather than listen to Schlesinger attempt to address a problem between them.

If we go to enumerate Tash's career then we need to add these points... After his storming out of Schlesinger's in 1933 he immediately bounced to Ub Iwerks joint and animated there till that studio's brief shutdown in 1935-36. Whether he did anything there besides animate is a point one can contemplate endlessly. He returned to Schlesinger's to direct in April 1936 indeed at age 23. When Tash "chucked" it to head for the greener pastures of Disney in 1938, his replacement Chuck Jones was himself only 24... Tashlin effectively wasted two years of his life at Disney, ostensibly as a director, but not one of his cartoons ever got made (Frank and Walt tended to disagree, NOT a good thing). As "story editor" he did contribute story ideas and character ideas to some Disney features released much, much later, BUT he went wholly uncredited. He joined Columbia Screen Gems as a STORYMAN in spring 1941 and then was made producer in Sept. '41. Frank only directed one and half cartoons for Columbia (one by his count). As producer he was largely responsible for the firing/quitting of VERY talented long-term director-writers like Art Davis, Sid Marcus and Lou Lilly, and responded by hiring less talented folks off of the Disney picket line (plus a handful from Schlesinger and MGM). "What goes around comes around" caught Tashlin after only a few months as Columbia producer... Thus back at Schlesinger in Sept. '42 (with old Iwerks pal animator Shamus Culhane) but this time Frank was only a storyman/story editor. Tashlin remarked that he hated coming back each time as he had to work his way up again. As soon as Norm McCabe was inducted Tash had another chance at the brass ring. He availed himself of this opportunity again for only two years (he actually quit in 1944).

What virtually NOBODY knows today is that Frank Tashlin went and directed a couple of stop-motion puppet films in 1944!!! Immediately after this he began being successful at selling gags for live-action features (the Marx Brothers "A Night In Casablanca" and "Love Happy" benefited thusly). He then got to write some whole films and then was entrusted with directing live action. Tashlin also wrote SEVERAL books along the way, "The Bear That Wasn't" amongst them. Chuck's animated version was Frank's last excusion (of any sort) into the realm of animation.

[J Lee]

Tim --

Tex's fights with Leon in 1940-41 and his subesquent feelings that he was "the best boss I ever had," can probably be put down to the result of experience -- after dealing with Fred Quimby and all those know-nothing advertasing executives ("Wonder if Avery knows how to draw Bugs Bunny?" was what Tex said one Kool Aid ad exec asked) over the next 35 years, what seemed important enough to quit a job over in July of 1941 was something that Avery looked back on more in regret by the time he was interviewed by Joe Adamson in the early 1970s. Avery did some great work at MGM, but when you're dealing with a producer who wants to tone down your very first cartoon "The Blitz Wolf" because, "we don't know who's going to win the war," you're not dealing with inspired leadership here (and if you look at each studio's roster of WWII theatrical cartoons, MGM did the least for the war effort than any other studio).

Everyone interviewed about Leon -- Avery, Freleng, Clampett, Jones, etc. -- says he didn't know diddley-squat about cartoons, but when you look at the staff he assembled, one thing he, or Katz, or Binder, did seem to recognize, even better than Disney, was how to hire people with creative talent in coming up with stories and a vision behind them. Walt wanted artists in the most litteral sense -- people with the drawing talent to turn out the visions he approved of. It was only when he became so detatched from the animated shorts that Jack Kinney and Jack Hannah were able to sneak stuff that was actually funny instead of just cute into them.

Even with Tashlin's dislike of Leon, he admitted his two years with Walt didn't amount to much more than working up story ideas for what would evetually become "Lady and the Tramp," 15 years later! Schlesinger's detachment, combined with his ability to pick out talent (he could have just as easily dumped the Jones unit as the Hardaway and Dalton group when Friz returned to the studio in late '39) meant that Tashlin's ideas at Warner's show up pretty much without front office interference nine months later, not 180 months after the fact.

The same thing to a lesser extent goes with J.L -- he didn't know cartoons, but he knew what he liked, and God knows, the man knew that "Buddy's Day Out" was a piece of crap, which was an opinion that changed the course of animation history and one we should all be thankful for.

Odds are we'll never know exactly why Warner objected so much to the ending of "The Heckling Hare" since when he was alive cartoons still weren't a big enough part of film history for anyone to have asked him about it, but in retrospect, Tex would have been better off keeping his temper and staying with the studio, since I'm sure Clampett felt the same way about having to modify the end of his Bugs Bunny cartoon "Hare Ribbin" 2 1/2 years later. If Bob had quit then, almost all of his greatest cartoons at WB never would have been made, and that would have been a shame. Too bad we'll never know what Tex would have done with Bugs and Daffy if he had hung around the Sunset studio a little while longer.