Artistic Merit in Video Games

[Artemis]

Came across another forum the other day. People there were still pissing and moaning about that censored scene in Xenosaga. Said Namco was doing a "travesty" by censoring that scene, messing with the creater's "artistic vision."

Well that catches my interest.


"Artistic vision" in a video game has come up in my mind a few times, but I usually dismiss it simply because of this: video games are made to make money. Art is not.


But how does that explain artistic merits in movies and books and whatnot? Thinking back to a few cutscenes in assorted video games I've played, a lot of them looked really damn good. And some storylines like MGS2 did make me think a little (shut up) even if some just used psuedo-philosophy just for the hell of it.

But really, can artistic value be placed in video games. Can an artist channel his artistic visions through video games if other mediums just don't work out.

Or should I just shut up and remember: THEY'RE VIDEO GAMES and move on with my life?

[ohmrbill]

I see no reason why artistic value couldn't be placed in video games. Of course, the real debatable question would be: has any existing game achieved that?

On the subject of Xenosaga; it is an oddity. The creator said that is dream was to create a game where the cut scenes could stand alone separate from the gameplay and tell a coherent story. But this may also raise the question: should Xenosaga therefore still be considered a video game, or simply a CGI anime with some video game elements mixed in? Considering there are cut scenes that apparently last longer than an hour, I wonder that myself.

[Conekiller]

go on over to the toonami board and try to use that logic on any of the Giant Robot Week threads. if you can wade thru all of them that is ;P

perhaps a final release of a game isn't the artist's complete vision (MGS2:Substance anyone) but it's not to say that what was finally put out was not what the people behind the game intended. By censoring a final release of a product you are taking someone elses work and altering it, no matter however slightly, it is now a different thing that shares MANY similarities with its original, but it is still different

and it doens't kill Toonami (sorry, just had to do that)

[Artemis]

Conekiller let's keep that Toonami warfare in the toonami forum. I'd like to be free of it in other forums. ;)

Originally posted by ohmrbill

On the subject of Xenosaga; it is an oddity. The creator said that is dream was to create a game where the cut scenes could stand alone separate from the gameplay and tell a coherent story. But this may also raise the question: should Xenosaga therefore still be considered a video game, or simply a CGI anime with some video game elements mixed in? Considering there are cut scenes that apparently last longer than an hour, I wonder that myself.

Extended Play will have their hands full with Xenosaga. They seem to HATE cutscenes. They might give it a 2 out of 5 simply because of that.

But do epic artistic stories have a place in video games? I mean, I love story in my video games just like you all, but the average gamer buys games to PLAY them not to be engulfed in some epic story. Shame to. wait, did I change the subject of this thread?

I think the biggest "offender" in being artistic is Xenogears/saga and the MGS series....and Shenmue...


Would you consider it a good or bad thing, though?

[Mynd Hed]

It all depends on what your definition of "art" is. I have one friend who maintains that a chair cannot be art, because it is created with a non-aesthetic function in mind; to be sat on. I have another friend-- an artist-- who says that if someone puts enough love and craftsmanship into making a chair, it should count as art.

Of course, there's one big difference between a video game and a chair-- unlike a chair, a video game can tell a story. And not only that, but a video game can have beautiful backgrounds and character designs. So yes, I'd say that video games CAN be art, but not too many are.

Also, I hate it when people argue that "video games (or anime, or whatever) can't be art because they're created to make money." You know, Michaelangelo WAS paid pretty well to paint the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel. Just because something makes money does not make it any less art.

[randomguy]

We had a decent debate a few months back about the nature of video games as art. Thus far, I've come to the conclusion that videogames are definitely a form of artistic expression. Game designers create living, breathing worlds... characters... music... dialogue... all of these things qualify as artistic in nature.

However, by and large, its the audiovisual and gameplay aspects of a videogame that I treat as artistic. Not the story. I have yet to encounter a videogame story that has contained deep social commentary or qualified as being something on the level of, let's say, Kubrick. Some games have tried (Metal Gear Solid, Shenmue, Xenosaga), but I see their attempts as being largely pretentious and melodramatic. I don't think a videogame, because of the inherent nature of the medium, will ever exist on the same artistic plane as a good movie, book, or painting. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I doubt it'll happen, and I'm not sure I'd really want to see a game of that nature anyway.

On the subject of Xenosaga; it is an oddity. The creator said that is dream was to create a game where the cut scenes could stand alone separate from the gameplay and tell a coherent story. But this may also raise the question: should Xenosaga therefore still be considered a video game, or simply a CGI anime with some video game elements mixed in? Considering there are cut scenes that apparently last longer than an hour, I wonder that myself.

I have a big problem with Xenosaga. The way I see it, if you want to do what it's creator has attempted, you shouldn't make a videogame. You should make an anime. Or a book. Don't try to make a book that's a videogame or a song that's a movie. Choose the medium which is most appropriate to your vision, instead of deforming an inappropriate medium just to see if it can be done.

I don't attach any weight to the Xenosaga debate anyway. I'm not buying the "artistic vision" stuff, because:

A) I think Xenosaga's story is dumb anyway

B) The scene in question involves sexually implicit conduct with a MINOR. Think about that, people. A MINOR. This censorship is not overreacting, it's being in accordance with US law and being tasteful. We have a reason for not inlvolving minors or depictions of minors with sexual imagery... because it's the right thing to do. Period.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by randomguy
B) The scene in question involves sexually implicit conduct with a MINOR. Think about that, people. A MINOR. This censorship is not overreacting, it's being in accordance with US law and being tasteful. We have a reason for not inlvolving minors or depictions of minors with sexual imagery... because it's the right thing to do. Period.

I personally don't care about the edit(s) of Xenosaga and believe most of the people whining about it are indeed greatly overreacting, but your logic here bothers me.

One: the edit was not to be in accordance with US law. Child porn is illegal because real children are victimized to create it. Not simply because it's sick. The point is moot, anyway, because the scene in question could not be described as child porn or anything close to that; no matter how you look at it.

Two: you seem to support the editing simply because you're offended by the scene in question. Why is that editing content that others are offended by (blood, nudity, etc.) it's wrong, but when YOU'RE the one being offended, it's a-okay? Is there some reason that you're value system should be regarded as solid truth, whereas that of others should not?

Also, I think it’s a bit strange that you say “We have a reason for not involving minors or depictions of minors with sexual imagery…” because I personally found certain scenes in Interview with the Vampire involving Kirsten Dunst and Brad Pitt to be far more disturbing than this.

Finally, how is the imagery in that scene any more morally corrupt than, oh say... imagery of car-jacking innocent people and chopping off their limbs with a chainsaw? And that's not even mentioning how one is used in the context of telling a serious story, while the other is just for "the fun of it." I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about here...

Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic here, so I'll get us b

I more or less agree with you about most (or all) attempts thus far failing at reaching the point of deep social commentary. I'm actually reluctant to call anything "art," mainly because the very nature of it sounds so pretentious to me. So while the "needlessly complex" and "melodramatic" stories of the likes of MGS2 and Xenogears thoroughly entertain me, I'm hesitant to call them any more than just that: entertainment.

But that also reminds me of a quote made by someone else here (I forget who): "Bad art is still art."

Another interesting subject for this topic would be .hack. Its story spans across anime, manga, and even a novel, but the main part of it is told in video game form. I haven't played any of the games yet, so I don't know how well it will end up working in the end, but it certainly shows that video games seem to be becoming more and more acceptable as a medium of story-telling (well, in Japan at least).