Gene Deitch's comments on terrorist attacks

[J Lee]

This seems like some sort of bizarre melding of the distant animation past with the current horrors, but Jerry Beck posted Deitch's comments on the attacks and on President Bush on his website Wednesday, and added a reply from California animator Shawn Toshikian today.

Make your own decision on this if you haven't read it already, but I side with Toshikian.

Gene Deitch comments on New York, Washington terrorist attacks (http://www.cartoonresearch.com/comments.html)

[all41]

I'm glad that Jerry posted that reply/point by point rebuttal. The initial thoughts by Gene Deitch were outrageous and infuriating. I'll second the rebuttal by Shawn Toshikian.

Particularly outrageous was the initial suggestion that we must now "give the displaced people a lot more than we have been willing to give them... and soon.."

Millions for defense but not one dollar for tribute!!!

[Glenn]

This guy (Gene Deitch) is a MORON.
Enuff said, without getting any angrier

Glenn.

[Matt]

Particularly outrageous was the initial suggestion that we must now "give the displaced people a lot more than we have been willing to give them... and soon.."

It's is obvious from Gene's comments that he does not condone the violence of the terrorists, nor do I believe he advocates giving in to any demands (in any case none were made in the first place) as the rebuttal hinted. I believe Gene's point, and one well worth pondering no matter what part of the political spectrum subscibe to, is that in the last twenty years the United States has had a profound effect upon the Middle East, and the vast majority of the effects of U.S. foreign policy have been detrimental to Arab populations in the region. People are not angry at the United States because we are so good, and they are so evil. Many in the Middle East have very legitimate complaints (none of which, of course, justify the bombings; nothing possibly could).

When Israel obliterated the Palestinian state (where its inhabitants had been living for hundreds of years) and set up what is essentially an apartheid state (recognized by no less a personage than Nelson Mandela) where those of Arab descent are severely restricted in where they can go, how and where they can work, and who they can associate with, it has been the United States that has been Israel's staunchest ally (the occupation is illegal under the Geneva Convention and has been declared so by the World Court). Many complain about so-called "rogue" states but forget that it was U.S. funds and equipment that created leaders and regimes like Saddam Hussein and the Afghanistan Taliban. Similarly, our responses to acts of terror have often been devastating to local populations while achieving nothing of substance. The last time we tried to go after Osama bin Laden, for example, all we achieved was obliterating a Mosque and snuffing out many innocent lives. When we bombed a suspected chemical weapons factory in Sudan and later it turned out to be, exactly as the Sudanese claimed all along, a medical facility, the U.S. reacted by squelching Sudan's attempts to seek reparations in the U.N. according to international law. If you ask many in the Middle East who the real terrorists are, you might be surprised by the answer.

I hope someday we can all live in a world where differences are not settled by an endless cycle of violence. In the meantime I continue to grieve for victims of terror and mayhem everywhere.

Matt

[alstin]

I never liked his Tom & Jerry cartoons anyway! Too abstract! Give me H-B or Chuck Jones anyday! What an unpatriotic jerk!:mad:

[PorkyandDaffy]

His comments are almost as dumb as his T&J cartoon. ALMOST.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

What an idiot. Yes, Matt made a few good points, but I'm with everyone else-"Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute!"

'Course, I'm embarrased by the stuff we have to deal with when the U.S. was on its anti-communist run in the cold war...some of these dictatorships were just as bad as the communist systems we tried to fight of...

[all41]

Matt wrote:

Many in the Middle East have very legitimate complaints (none of which, of course, justify the bombings; nothing possibly could).

When Israel obliterated the Palestinian state (where its inhabitants..... blah blah blah

Matt, dude, you say that nothing could justify the bombings then go on a paragraph long rant that seems to try and justify them. Which is it? Whatever perceived "insults" we Americans have done should be dealt with diplomatically and not via violence. And which of those Arab Islamic countries is a democracy?

You can't have it both ways.

[Thad Komorowski]

What a jerk Gene is! Boy, I wonder what Pietro (a big Deitch cartoon fan) will say about this.....

-Thad:D

[angilbas]

Let's not continue to be hard on Gene. He has every right to be upset, and upset people are likely to do, say or write inappropriate things.

Because of Tuesday's horrors, we will lose some freedoms, at least for a while. But as long as we maintain the fundamentals of democracy, the terr's and tyrants cannot win.

Let us always have an environment in which the Gene Deitches can express themselves freely, then be followed up by the Shawn Toshikians.

-Tony

[happyheathen]

may i suggest...

that the 'we back israel no matter what' mantra is obsolete, and we deal with reality for a change?

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by happyheathen
may i suggest...

that the 'we back israel no matter what' mantra is obsolete, and we deal with reality for a change?

Dave and Matt~~

I don't know how to break the news to you but America has the largest Jewish population in the world. THAT is the reality, and as such WE are going to back Israel to the nth degree, no matter what. (This aside from it being morally right in most peoples eyes).

IFFFFFF you want to talk about the "refugee" (Palestinian) problem then you should consider this... The Moslem Arab states created and have maintained the problem (with great success I might add). What do I mean?? Simple. Before declaring its statehood Israel had freely agreed to accept the U.N.'s 1947 wild piecemeal partition of the land into Jewish and "Arab" sections. BUT as Israel declared its statehood, the Moslem Arab states did something that is never mentioned now... THEY broadcast into the Palestinian areas announcements urging/ordering the "Arabs" to flee across the borders, and that the Arab states would immediately destroy Israel. When the Jewish state was destroyed then the "Arabs" (Palestinians) would return and have ALL the land. The Palestinians obeyed the broadcasts. History did not of course turn out that way, the Israelis won and viewed the Palestinians as turncoats. Thus the Moslem Arab states truly CREATED the whole problem. They (with the U.N.) then created those 'Palestinian Reservations' the "refugee camps" (a nice word for a permanent dumpy ghetto to keep the Palestinians from merging with the "Arabs" of the surrounding Moslem states). Thus they have maintained the separation (read: "Arab" apartheid!) of the Palestinians as a means to continue breeding undying resentment and hatred. They may talk about "Arab" brotherhood but when it comes to merging the Palestinians into their nations then "brotherhood" goes by the wayside.

IFFFFF you are wondering why I put quotes around the word Arabs it is for this reason... The people of the Arabian peninsula ARE indeed Arabs (with some scattered about elsewhere). While the folks of Iraq are the descendants of the ancient Babylonians. The Jordanians AND Palestinians are the direct descendants of the ancient Ammonites and Moabites (the Jordanians have a fair contingency of Bedouin Arabs migrating about). The Syrians are just that (Syrians). All of these people are Semites (brothers and cousins of the Jewish people) but only a few are really and truly Arabs. The Egyptians are (you guessed it) really the offspring of the Egyptians of old. The only things that's Arab about all these guys is the Islamic religion and the Arabic language (which they were forced to learn). The Iranians (and partly the Afghans) are the descendants of the Persians, but managed to keep their own Indo-European languages rather than have Arabic forced on them.

It is an interesting anomaly that the handful of bonafide Arab states (with the Moslem/Muslim holy sites contained therein) are the most peaceful and friendly towards the West... The fact that they are monarchies may or may not have a part in this Western tilt.

Lastly... Something that virtually NO westerner knows... The Moslem mindset comes from Islam considering itself to be a (or the) victorious religion. There is no room in their hardcore world for secular nations (anywhere), non-Moslem nations, Jewish nations, or Christian nations or pagan nations. ALL have to ultimately be in submission to Islam. Mohammed ordered ALL people to be converted to Islam except Jews or Christians who could pay a hefty annual tax. No tax payment?? Then conversion was forced... Keep in mind the very words "Islam" and "Moslem" mean submission

Thus any peace with them, they can NOT take seriously ever... In their minds the thought is "victory is ours" even if it takes years more to accomplish. This is all sad but true.

In America Gene Deitch has a right (the freedom of speech) to express his views, no matter how wrong and distasteful they may be. It will be to our grave detriment to lose ANY of our God-given freedoms...

(Sorry if anybody considers this a rant, or inappropriate. Twas important to add to the ongoing thread).

[Matt]

Tim,

You are, of course, largely correct about the founding of Israel. I did not mean to suggest that there is an easy solution in the region, and none of the participants are totally blameless in the current mess that is ongoing in Israel. This does not alter the fact, however, that in 1967 Israel illegally obliterated the Palestinian state, or that non-Jewish populations in Israel are legally treated as fourth-class citizens. Terrorism is a response of people who have been pushed so far to despair, they no longer feel they have anything to lose. My initial point, aside from defending Gene's comments, was to highlight the fact that many in the Middle East have very legitimate grievances against the United States and that many of the problems we are fighting in the region are largely self-created. This is quite different from defending terrorists, as someone else suggested. There is a huge anti-American contingent in the Middle East, but I suspect the vast majority does not condone the actions in New York and Washington. Iran, for example, has been quite sympathetic, with many spontaneous displays of support from among the people.

There are, sadly, no easy solutions to the Palestinian question. It does not seem fair to create a Palestinian state surrounded and totally dependent on Israel, encompassing less than twenty percent of its former size. Nor does it seem fair to eliminate Israel altogether. Obviously there will have to be more compromise than either side is willing to provide at the moment. Ironically, compared to the atrocities committed against Jewish populations in Europe (particularly against Ashkenazic Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia), the Muslim world has had a fairly decent record of tolerance towards large and vibrant Jewish minorities in places like North Africa and the Yemen before the creation of the Jewish homeland in Israel. Maybe someday the two groups can learn to live together again.

Matt