The Forbidden Topic Noone Will Reply To

[Sora Takenouchi]

I said "One of these days, I'm gonna ask them" And today happens to be one of these days.

Anyone care to comment?

[JohnCrichton]

You're a pervert, Sora. ^_^

Anyway, which one means "two girls good, two guys bad?"

[Animation Otaku]

That would be Shojou-ai good, shonen-ai bad.
I personally like both of them in my doujinshi.

[Sora Takenouchi]

You're a pervert, Sora. ^_^

Am not! :o I just wanted to see the opinions of people here, that's all! ^_^;;;;;


Anyway, which one means "two girls good, two guys bad?"

Depends. Do you care about the relationship between the two girls or do you just wanna see HLA?:deedee: If the latter, choose the bottom-most option, please.

[JohnCrichton]

Done and done, Star Stealer.

^_^

[Ssedrey]

Sadly, there's simply too much anime that has this type of thing. Including some of my favorites (Battle Athletes Victory for one). So I just choose to ignore it for the most part and keep watching. Can't let something like that interfere with a series being a decent one.

[Zero Angel]

bah ssedrey, you just have a weak heart.

personally i love it when they develop a shoujo-ai relationship.

i love the Michiru + Haruka relationship from Sailor Moon and think that there needs to be more of those types of situations without going H. Battle Athletes Victory has some interesting stuff but it isnt very femenine. now on the reverse side there are things that sort of cross the line of H, but still has the developing relationship, read Chirilaty if you want to see what i mean.

even in Lain you see a little bit of a Shoujo-ai relationship develop between Lain and Alice.

[Rypkord]

I like shoujo-ai but i am not a HUGE fan of it. I think it is nice, and especially in today's society i meet so many girls that are at least bi, so i would expect that in anime's today there would be a few girls that choose that sort of lifestyle. However...shoujo-ai is sooooo hard to find. you have your anime shoujo-ai and your fanfics, but i have not yet seen a lot of anime's that base around a "female" relationship. Granted, i haven't looked into it much and i am sure if i did i could uncover some manga and some different anime's that base around this...but i am not that into it to actually go that deep.

Shonen-ai however...i am a HUGE fan. I like Shonen-ai, i have tons of manga read thousands of fanfics, and even have about 7 or 8 videos that revolve around Shonen-ai. I am a guy...and i am not gay O.o...i just have an open mind, and have always liked the relationships and the stories behind some of these shonen-ai titles. Maybe because american society looks down upon Gay men in general it makes the stories, and the way they are written and portrayed that much more interesting. Another thing about shonen-ai that i like is the fact of all the fans of shonen-ai and yaoi. Most of them are girls, and being a guy that likes it too its pretty cool ^_^. Everyone i have ever met that is into shonen-ai and yaoi are soo cool, and they are just like me O.o. They usually are very creative and they are usually a little perverted and i always have a good time when i hand out with them. the group associated with shonen-ai and yaoi is my type of people, and if it wasn't for them i don't think i would be into it as much, but because they are there it makes liking it an enjoyable experience and i just wish i had enough money to get the KnivesxVash Doujinshi on Ebay -.-

[Bakasama]

uh, what IS Shounen-ai?

[Zechs]

I don't mind shounen-ai I mean if guys can enjoy to females gettin it on why can't I look at two guys who are in love. I'm not a fan girl mind you. I don't go looking for but if it's in a story I like or is the man focus of the story, I'm not going to not watch it just because of that. Besides I love Yami no Matsuei but it's pretty tame to some of the shows I hear fan girls talking about or have seen reveiws of on the net. I dislike yaio and yuri they just have nothing to offer story wise most of the time.
( I'm a sucker for a good sotry)

Shounen-ai: Story of two males in love can have sex but is mild.

Shoujo-ai: Story of two girl in love can have sex but is mild.

Yuri: Girl on girl sex with very little storyline.

Yaio: Male on male sex with very llitle storyline.

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

I have no problems with either one, and I'll happily admit to being a shounen-ai fangirl. ^_^

[Ultra8]

I find it cute.
I've only seen the shoujo-ai though. It usually catches me with the "hey two chicks are going to do it" then it slips in the romance and I forget about the possible sex and hope they get together. It also works well for comedy like in Battle Atheletes Victory or Maze. The closest I've seen of shonen-ai is in Maze and Saber Marionette J Again,(but I find the guy from that just creepy).
I like the stories that they create and the expressions the characters undergo.

[Sandoz]

I don't mind it. I do support some same-sex anime couples (like Juri/Shiori or Subaru/Kamui :p ) but I'm not the "OMG! HEERO AND DUO ARE SO KAWAII!!1 XD XD XD" type of fangirl. :p ;)

[Conekiller]

I don't MIND it but when it dominates the story (looking your way Gravitation) it becomes an eyesore (I'm referrring to both)

but I like it when used for comedy like in PuniPuni Poemi (which is sick, twisted and WRONG!) or fan pranks like the fav Gundam W:

Duo: I wonder how long I get to see the moon like this
Heero: well if you want I can pull my pants up
Duo NAH! That's cool

a friend played that for me and I was in stitches.

don't get me started on fanfics tho

and on a slightly different not, some people advocate shounen-ai and shojo-ai in Invader ZIM, NOOOOOOOOO! that is justplain wrong

[Steve Jester]

*sigh* oh boy.

anyway based on my own sexuality (see this thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64016)) i have to say that I like both shoujo-ai and shouen-ai.

In my fanfiction though I write mainly straight and shoujo-ai.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Hot damn, SEXNESS! Just kidding.

I won't stop watching an anime just because it has a some characters that are a little too friendly towards their own sex, but I don't go searching for them either.

[Weatherman]

I don't mind shounen-ai too much. I'll watch it when it comes on, though I do have isues with the fact that it's ALWAYS the most bisounen males they throw into those situations, mainly due to the fact that I find bisounen kinda off putting, but that;s neither here nor there. Sadly, I have not seen an shoujo-ai yet. Closest I've come in some of the CLAMP kiddie work.

[RZetlin]

Since I'm a guy, I have to say that Shoujo-ai can be quite tasty and yummy! :D

Though tasting shounen-ai may be hard to go down. :yawn:

[Karl Olson]

I could care less. I'm much, much, much more likely to not a watch an anime because it's lstory stinks or it's poorly done than because of any shonen-ai or shojo-ai elements. I mean, I'm eagerly awaiting the Gravitation in the US, and it's well in the realm of Shonen-ai (I might even cosplay as Shuichi if I go sakura-con here in seattle). Conversely I'm also waiting the release of the Miyuki-Chan in Wonderland manga in the US, and it's got stuff that might almost be considered yuri in it.

As long as it has a plot or is hilarious, I'll usually enjoy it regardless of any relationship differences.

[Spike Mcdougal]

Well since i'm a guy I hate Shounen-ai and Yaoi but really pisses me off is that stuff is at least half of the Romance catagory at Fanfiction.net's Gundam Wing section, for every one decent fic between one of the guys and one of the girls there's at least five Yaoi fics!!!


As far as girls go I LIKE Amara and Michelle's relationship but every other pairing I can think of ends in HLA or Porn without plot.

EDIT:I cant believe I mispelled Yaoi

[Animation Otaku]

As opposed to porn with plot? If it has plot, it ain't porn.

[Elven Moon]

Shoujo-ai and shounen-ai are OK, I can like or even ignore it if I want. However, I do NOT like Yaoi and Yuri! That is a huge turnoff for me when it comes to a series.

[Bakasama]

Originally posted by Animation Otaku
As opposed to porn with plot? If it has plot, it ain't porn.

Wouldn't that raise it to the level of erotic thiller? Those aren't much better.

[hyprlynx]

If the anime or manga is good it won't stop me from watching/reading it. Best two examples are Sorcerer Hunters and Cardcaptor Sakura. I like the storylines in both and the sexual innunendo doesn't scare me away.

Of course I've never seen or read anything that was full blown but I still don't think that would deter me, just as long as it was done tastefully. :p

[Outside Angel]

I absolutely love shounen-ai...my favorite couples are mostly male/male. And, of course, yaoi is always good too. ;) Sometimes plot is overrated. Shoujo-ai, on the other hand, I have a hard time with. It's not like I think it's wrong or anything, but because of a certain very bad experience, it hurts to watch too much of.

[Ikwig]

Eh. . . whatever! If it's there, I'll watch it, and if it ain't, I don't care. As long as the story is interesting and well-written, the lack or presence of shounen-ai or shoujo-ai will make no difference to me and how I feel about the anime or manga.

[Zechs]

I've heard some porn has plot, but I'll never know beacuse I really don't want to. As for Yaoi and Yuri I try to stay away from it as much as I can. Pointless sex is a total turn off for me.

[Rypkord]

The only two Yaoi movies i have that have bad plots are Boko wa Sexualk Harrasment...that isn't even graphic but it does has noises. Its basically the younger guy to the company getting taken advantage of by all the older guys...my friends that are into yaoi love it...i find it disturbing.

The other one is Legend of the Blue Wolves...i think...and that was definetaly a pwp...maybe if either of them had subtitles maybe there is some plot but from what i have seen there is none...

All the other yaoi i have have really good and really good plots...like Kizuna, and Zetsuai will make you cry if you cry when you see sad thing O.o

[JohnCrichton]

You know, Sora hasn't answered the question on her own thread yet.....

[Disco Pete]

I'm still new at this, and haven't seen as much anime as many of the rest of you, but speaking from my opinions in the real world, I can predict what I'd prefer.

Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai: I don't think this would be a problem. I've know gay and lesbian people, both in and out of the closet, and their lifestyle doesn't offend me; Just as long as there's a good solid plot.

Yuri and Yaio: Hmmm... Doesn't sound too apealing. Male on male and Female on female relations can be nice when woven into a good plot, but I wouldn't be interested in gay or lesbian sex for it's own sake. That's just my opinion.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by RZetlin
Since I'm a guy, I have to say that Shoujo-ai can be quite tasty and yummy! :D

Though tasting shounen-ai may be hard to go down. :yawn:

Since I'm lazy, I'll just say I agree wit this opinion. Tomoyo's devotion to Sakura in Card Captor Sakura has got to be one of the sweetest things I've seen.

[Jade_GL]

I don't mind it. Heck, I don't even mind hentai. It's all in what the story is and if it is actually good.

I've seen plenty of doujinshi and fanfics. I think they're all just extensions of stories. It's people trying to be creative, and sex and relationships are a natural part of everyone's lives. I even don't mind sex for the sake of sex. There are people in the world who do things like that or don't have a moral objection to that, so I just look at it as a reflection of reality in some cases. I also believe that a lot of people who write like to act out the impossible or improbable in their stories and doujinshi, so again, it's just an extension of what people see, what people want to see, what people have experiences, etc.

Besides, I am very liberal when it comes to people and their own relationships and lives, so I don't pass judgment on something so harmless as an anime, manga, doujinshi, or fanfic. And I don't mind seeing it. I may not actively seek these things out, but I won't cower under the covers and be scared of it tainting my mind either.

:)

[ROBBOT]

It depends. I'm not interested in it in the case of sex for the sake of sex. The story must be convincing and have a good plot. Give me a well-told story and the rest isn't that important to me. :)

[Ben]

Originally posted by Jade_GL
I even don't mind sex for the sake of sex. There are people in the world who do things like that or don't have a moral objection to that, so I just look at it as a reflection of reality in some cases.

Well, if it intends to say something about reality, if it intends to say anything, then it's legally not obscene. I think something is obscene only if it is completely devoid of redeeming social, cultural, or scientific value. So sex for the sake of sex would be porn, but if it was commenting on lust or the nature of love or something then it might be pornographic, but it's not obscene porn.

I think that if anything is trying consciously to reflect reality then it can't help but have "redeeming social or cultural value." From the same token, a film called "ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYONE HAS SEX!" really has nothing to do with reality at all.

[RockItShipper]

I thought yaoi and yuri just referred to homosexual relationships (and not neccessarily sex unless ecchi or hentai was also mentioned), and shoujo/shouen ai the open-ended "Are they or aren't they?" thing to drag in some viewers while not offending others.

I'm not interested in seeing the sex stuff as much as I am in seeing some diversity in almost anything I watch/read and what not.

[Kaiser0120]

Originally posted by Spike Mcdougal
Well since i'm a guy I hate Shounen-ai and Taoi but really pisses me off is that stuff is at least half of the Romance catagory at Fanfiction.net's Gundam Wing section, for every one decent fic between one of the guys and one of the girls there's at least five Yaoi fics!!!


As far as girls go I LIKE Amara and Michelle's relationship but every other pairing I can think of ends in HLA or Porn without plot.

Hehehe! Gundam Romances are mostly Yaoi because the GW Boys are so Bishie.

[Kaiser0120]

My stance on Shounen-Ai/Shoujo-Ai?

I'mma Gay Boy, so I think it's obvious. I LOVE SHOUNEN-AI! ^.^ It's fun, romantic and usually has some great looking boys in there. Shoujo-ai is cool with me, only if it's part of a story like Haruka and Michieru.

Alot of people complain that there's half the Romance Selection for alot of Anime Fanfics (And alot of Anime and Manga) are Yaoi/Shounen-ai. Ya know why?

Because there's Heterosexuality and Homosexuality. ^.^ If you can't derive why from that...

[Lachesis]

I'm fine as long as things don't get too gratuitous and it's two sided, as opposed to creepy stalker-type situation.

'Shipper, it's my under standing that shojou/shonen-ai is the general term. Yaoi/yuri involve naughty stuff, and are both terms that are really, really misused.

[Sora Takenouchi]

Originally posted by JohnCrichton
You know, Sora hasn't answered the question on her own thread yet.....


I didn't answer right away, because I wanted to see other answers first, if it was answered at all. Now that it has been I can safely say I'm a bit of a shounen-ai fangirl. ^_^ I don't mind shoujo-ai, though.

[Jade_GL]

What I meant when I said "sex for the sake of sex" was not everyone getting down just because. I meant more in the progression of a story for lust, or other reasons. In the first part my post I did say that I wanted a good story. If this comes from a good story, why not?

See, I see nothing wrong with pornography, but that's just me. So I assume some people will jump on me for that. So what? But I obviously would prefer any acts with a story to back them up.

I don't mind any shounen-ai, shoujo-ai, yuri, yaoi, I really don't care. But like I said, I don't actively pursue it, but if I chance upon it, I won't act all indignant and pretend like it's automatically bad. I think some people just assume it must be bad, or must be hentai, just because it involves an adult relationship, or a sexual dimension in the relationship. I just have an open mind when it comes to that kind of stuff. I know some people don't like it, and that's fine. Such is life, right? :D

[Bakasama]

Originally posted by Sora Takenouchi
I didn't answer right away, because I wanted to see other answers first, if it was answered at all. Now that it has been I can safely say I'm a bit of a shounen-ai fangirl. ^_^ I don't mind shoujo-ai, though.

That's pretty clever. You just wanted to know if it was safe to ask this question in the first place.

[Zechs]

I have no proplem if you don't find anything wrong with porn. I myself don't like it because I see on point of having sex in as how just for the sake of having it in there. People shouldn't jump on you because it's your opinoin. Just beacuse you don't mind watching it dosen't mean you love it. Which I'm thinking your're think people will asume. (and some will unfourtnely)

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I would be interested in Shoujo-Ai if done well. Oh what the heck, I just want to see lesbian sex, so I'd watch it anyway! :D

[Zechs]

Jojo how could you think of the children!!!!!!!!!! * faints* :p :D

[Kaiser0120]

Well, as we're at it... Why not...

SHOTA-AI! *Runs like HELL*

[Rypkord]

Originally posted by Kaiser0120
Well, as we're at it... Why not...

SHOTA-AI! *Runs like HELL*

theres nothing really wrong with Shota-ai...i kind of get disturbed when i see graphic yaoi of shota though...lol...though some of them make me laugh a lot ^_^ I actually have about 5 shota Doujins...O.o...i didn't know they were shota though so don't yell at me ::runs like hell as well::

[Greek_Honeybee]

Originally posted by Kaiser0120
Well, as we're at it... Why not...

SHOTA-AI! *Runs like HELL* *blink*

Okay, I'll be the clueless one. Though I'm almost afraid to ask... What does Shota-ai refer to?

*looks up 'shota' in her Japenese-English dictionary*
Sex with the housekeeper?? :confused:

[c05m02k1]

I for one will watch almost anything. If it is worth it to sit through it great, if not I wipe it from my mind. . .

c05m0 - Pro Shoujo-ai, Shounen-ai

Whatever Floats Your Boat. . . :rolleyes:

[Chosen Raven]

Well, since I don't agree with the lifestyle I'm against it. Hentai however, I think is sick tastless crap and should be booted out of America not matter how "deep" the story is.

*Turns an looks at Jade_GL* Every time I turn around 3 times in a row you have a new avatar. It's an atractive comic gal though so no complaints here :).

[Zechs]

Yeah I hate hentai too. It's just animated porn and I already hate regular porn. I my self think either of the two should never have been made. To me it wortless crap that degrades the image of woman and man.

[Outside Angel]

Hentai however, I think is sick tastless crap and should be booted out of America not matter how "deep" the story is.

I'll counter this statement, since I happen to *gasp* enjoy a hentai flick every now and again. Yeah, it's gratuitous sex, without any real point or plot or story line...so? It's entertaining.

Shota-ai...isn't that underaged sex? I think so...can't really object, as long as both parties are consenting and all. Not my thing, but hey, whatever does it for you. I figure, people should enjoy whatever they're into.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Porn may not be the most stimulating (mentally, at least) form of entertainment out there, but to look down on it as if it were criminal is unfair, I think. Sure, there are hentai and porn which cover a variety of different types of sexual behaviour--good and bad, but a good, fun hentai portraying sex between consenting parties is not bad in and of itself. Maybe it's not to one's taste in entertainment, but it's hardly something one should be ashamed of liking.

[Rick Hunter]

As a heterosexual male, I say I muchly enjoy shoujo-ai and yuri. I'll also occassionally read/watch shonen-ai and yaoi just for kicks, but at the end of the day, I'd return to shoujo-ai and yuri. I also like regular hentai, woo.

However, I think Shota-ai is something a little too disturbing for me. I guess when it's on a manga page, it's slightly less troublesome..but the concept itself is just something I don't think should be promoted at all.

Ah well.

~Rick Hunter

[Lachesis]

I have no trouble with most porn, erotica, or material of an adult nature. As long as you don't obsess over the stuff, I don't see why a little now and then is really such a big deal. Sexual repression isn't healthy, physically or mentally as far as I'm concerned.

Now, shotacon and lolicon are definitely troubling to me. Anything where kids are involved just gets way too morally questionable, since by legal definitions kids can't really give consent in the first place.

[ROBBOT]

good, fun hentai portraying sex between consenting parties is not bad in and of itself.
I aggree. Let porn be what it is, porn. It is adult entertainment and I personally enjoy some of it. The only thing that I find degrading is when minors are forced to do it.

by legal definitions kids can't really give consent in the first place. I aggree.

When telling a story, you can use sex to spice it up, yeah, but it must be a good story in the first place. To make it short I'm into well-done porn and good stories. Sometimes the two genres mix well, sometimes they don't. :)

[Mynd Hed]

Hentai however, I think is sick tastless crap and should be booted out of America not matter how "deep" the story is.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion of hentai, but if you don't like it, why don't you try this little thing called NOT WATCHING IT rather than calling for it to be forcibly removed from your country of origin? We have this little thing in America called "freedom of speech," and that means even things that you personally may find distasteful.

[Solitude1]

I like both actually... and yes I am a guy. I just don't see anything wrong with falling in love with the same sex. My girlfriend even agrees with me. It's especially interesting to see these kind of relationships in an Anime. :cool:


ALSO... can anyone name any good anime with a yaoi relationship? THankxxz

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

Originally posted by Solitude1
ALSO... can anyone name any good anime with a yaoi relationship? THankxxz

Manga's better than the anime, but Gravitation's not bad....Then there's X, what with the Kamui/Fuuma trainwreck.....Tokyo Babylon's pretty good....

[BrendaBat]

Origionally posted by Choses Raven
Well, since I don't agree with the lifestyle I'm against it. Hentai however, I think is sick tastless crap and should be booted out of America not matter how "deep" the story is.
You're right! And, while we're at it, we should ban all movies that contain sexual scenes and nudity! That way, we can prevent those perverted foreigners from violating our children with their smut! Now, lets begin by doing away with that pesky 'First Amendment' thing
Sorry if I sounded harsh, but darn it, I just couldn't resist :D

And about not agreeing with "the lifestyle" (ie homosexuals), JUST DON'T WATCH YAOI/YURI stuff!! Your views against homosexuality should not prevent me from watching Sailor Moon or any of my countless bishonen yaoi fests!

[Chosen Raven]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion of hentai, but if you don't like it, why don't you try this little thing called NOT WATCHING IT rather than calling for it to be forcibly removed from your country of origin?

That's like saying something like "If you don't like abortion then don't do it". If I think something is sick, twisted, and utterly wrong I'm going to do my best to get rid of it whether you like it or not. You seem to forget the fact that basically every person who has been convicted of a sexual crime was in possesion of some form of pornagraphy. I'm not saying that anyone who looks at porn will become a sexual deviant, but I am saying that porn breeds things like that. It's bad for society as a whole.


We have this little thing in America called "freedom of speech," and that means even things that you personally may find distasteful.

Last time I checked, the people who made up the First Amendment didn't mean for it to protect every sick thing under the sun. That's what you think it is and not what it was meant to be.


You're right! And, while we're at it, we should ban all movies that contain sexual scenes and nudity! That way, we can prevent those perverted foreigners from violating our children with their smut! Now, lets begin by doing away with that pesky 'First Amendment' thing

Oh joy. Another person who thinks the First Amendment was meant to protect their precious porn, but blows up when somebody disagrees with them.


And about not agreeing with "the lifestyle" (ie homosexuals), JUST DON'T WATCH YAOI/YURI stuff!! Your views against homosexuality should not prevent me from watching Sailor Moon or any of my countless bishonen yaoi fests!

Maybe you should read my post again, BrendaBat. Because if you had actually paid attention to it you would see that I was only talking about porn(for the record, I like Sailor Moon too despite the lesbian relationship of 2 of the characters). So you can continue to watch your little shoujo/shounen-ai stuff as much as you want. I'm not going to write to congress about it. Geez. Just so you know, I don't watch yaoi/yuri stuff. What, you think I should be okay with it just because I don't watch it? And I really wish you guys would DISPENSE WITH THE FREAK'IN DON'T WATCH IT CRAP! When ever anyone thinks something you guys like is wrong you say "well then don't do this, don't do that". You never come up with a resonable argument you just use that same trite expression over and over.

I normaly don't talk like this when debating with people, but right now I'm just plain mad(after all, you guys started with the whole talking down, sarcasm bit). I say a quick little something on my belief on the subject( in case you forgot, that was the reason of this thread) and get jumped all over. At least one thing is clear to me now, the only freedom of speech you guys give a rip about is your own. [SARCASM] If you don't like what I said, then don't read it[SARCASM] :rolleyes:.

[MachSabre]

Sigh... Calm it down kids. Everyone's entitled to thier own opinions, even if you don't agree to them.

[Disco Pete]

A voice of reason.

[Zechs]

Let's not get this thread closed dow. Some people hate porn some people love it. So let's move on .

[Mynd Hed]

You seem to forget the fact that basically every person who has been convicted of a sexual crime was in possesion of some form of pornagraphy. I'm not saying that anyone who looks at porn will become a sexual deviant, but I am saying that porn breeds things like that. It's bad for society as a whole.

Every person who has been convicted of a sexual crime in this country probably had breakfast cereal in their pantry, too. Should we outlaw breakfast cereal? That's a fallacious argument because it doesn't show a causal relationship between erotica and sexual deviance. There has never been any evidence that erotic material contributes in any quantifiable way to sexual deviance-- and for that matter, you haven't defined what you consider "sexual deviance" to be, making this argument meaningless.


Last time I checked, the people who made up the First Amendment didn't mean for it to protect every sick thing under the sun. That's what you think it is and not what it was meant to be.

Last time I checked, the Constitution doesn't say that the public has a right to free speech unless they offend someone with it. It says free speech. Period. And regardless of what the founders of this particular country in which I happen to have been born intended with that statement, I agree with the principles of free speech because I believe it's morally correct. Do I agree with depicting the violent rape of children? No. But I don't believe that I am wise enough to decide what is unfit for other people to view. I only know what is unfit for ME to view, and so I choose not to view it. That's a personal decision I make for myself, and I respect the rights of other people to make their own decisions about what they feel is unfit for them to view.
The alternative to that is for everyone to have someone ELSE to decide what they can and cannot see-- their government, their church, whoever. Someone else who's just as human and therefore just as fallible in their decision-making as anybody else, but even LESS qualified to make that decision than the person they're making the decision for, because they are not that person, and therefore they are less informed about what is appropriate for that person to view than that person is. That seems to be what you are advocating.



Where do you draw the line? Where, EXACTLY, does something stop being harmless risque entertainment and start being smut? The answer is always the same: when I, personally, am offended by something, it's smut. When I am not offended, it is okay, even if it's a little risque. Such judgments are always highly subjective. Trying to apply such narrow judgments to a diverse society of billions of people from hundreds of different cultural backgrounds-- it can't be done. Simple as that.



Anyway, Machina is right, let us not allow this to get out of hand. I think we're having a good debate, but let's all make sure to keep it cool and logical and not lose sight of the issue.

[Chosen Raven]

Every person who has been convicted of a sexual crime in this country probably had breakfast cereal in their pantry, too. Should we outlaw breakfast cereal? That's a fallacious argument because it doesn't show a causal relationship between erotica and sexual deviance.

This doesn't make sense. Cereal is in no way tied with anything sexual. Porn however, is purely sexual in nature. Many who have committed sexual crimes say porn was their starting point. It's simple to reason that something that weakens a persons reluctance as far as sex is concerned would also weaken their reluctance to commit sex related crimes. When hormones are working over board sometimes sanity goes out the window. Again, I'm not saying every one who looks at porn will become a rapist, but I am saying that it is a starting point for such a thing.


There has never been any evidence that erotic material contributes in any quantifiable way to sexual deviance-- and for that matter, you haven't defined what you consider "sexual deviance" to be, making this argument meaningless.



I don't know where you got that from. Numerous studies have been done on the subject and many of the people who have committed sex crimes have said porn is what got them into it. I just tried to find the studies on the Xupiter search engine but all I got was a bunch of porn listings. It's been so many years sense the studies were taken everyone has probably forgoten about them(if only I could remember the names).

Sexual devience=rape, pedophilia, harassment ect. Anything it's against the law to do.


Last time I checked, the Constitution doesn't say that the public has a right to free speech unless they offend someone with it. It says free speech. Period. And regardless of what the founders of this particular country in which I happen to have been born intended with that statement, I agree with the principles of free speech because I believe it's morally correct.

Porn is in no way, shape or form speech. It is meant to apeal directly to a persons hormones and nothing more. It's destructive and degrading. That's all it will ever be. I believe the principles of free speach to be morally correct as well. If a diehard Marxist/Socialist/Satanist wants to promote his views, I'd die for his right to do so. But once again, porn is not speech.


Do I agree with depicting the violent rape of children? No. But I don't believe that I am wise enough to decide what is unfit for other people to view. I only know what is unfit for ME to view, and so I choose not to view it. That's a personal decision I make for myself, and I respect the rights of other people to make their own decisions about what they feel is unfit for them to view.

You're saying that it's all right for people to view something like the violent rape of children as long as they think it's okay? I have to have twisted this around some how, you can't have meant that. When peoples decisions cause harm to others they should not be tolerated in the least.


The alternative to that is for everyone to have someone ELSE to decide what they can and cannot see-- their government, their church, whoever. Someone else who's just as human and therefore just as fallible in their decision-making as anybody else, but even LESS qualified to make that decision than the person they're making the decision for, because they are not that person, and therefore they are less informed about what is appropriate for that person to view than that person is. That seems to be what you are advocating.

If a person relies on himself to make every decision, his decision will be tainted by his own wants. If a person wants to do something they'll do whatever they can to convince themselves that it's alright. I'm not saying the government or church should decide what is moral for everyone(God is another matter, but there's really no point in getting into that now). The fact remains though, that the goverment and the people who elected officials to office have decided that certain things are wrong. It's called the law. Murder, vandalism, rape ect. are all things that the majority of people think are wrong and so they have made laws against them. These are all things that affect others and those around them. Just like porn.


Where do you draw the line? Where, EXACTLY, does something stop being harmless risque entertainment and start being smut? The answer is always the same: when I, personally, am offended by something, it's smut. When I am not offended, it is okay, even if it's a little risque. Such judgments are always highly subjective. Trying to apply such narrow judgments to a diverse society of billions of people from hundreds of different cultural backgrounds-- it can't be done. Simple as that.

Here is where we get into the touchy subject of moral absolutes. I believe there is a moral right and wrong for everyone on the face of the planet. But, even though we don't agree on that we do agree that if something a person does is detrimental to others it is wrong, right? Porn does this. Porn has broken up families(you'd be suprised how many) and it has contributed to the rape of women and children. Porn is one of the greatest diseases that has affected America today and we're the worse for it.


Anyway, Machina is right, let us not allow this to get out of hand. I think we're having a good debate, but let's all make sure to keep it cool and logical and not lose sight of the issue.

Personaly, I didn't want this to get into a debate in the first place. I said a tiny little something of my view on the subject, and suddenly you and BrendaBat come after me like I committed the cardinal sin of the liberal left(saying something against the First Amendment,which I didn't do).

Anyway, I said my peice. I'm oughta here. Debates have become pointless to me as of late, since in every one Iv'e seen on this board no one on either side has ever changed their opinions. Just once I'd like to see it happen, even if it happened to someone on my side of an argument. Reply if you want, I won't reply back.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Chosen Raven
Personaly, I didn't want this to get into a debate in the first place. I said a tiny little something of my view on the subject, and suddenly you and BrendaBat come after me like I committed the cardinal sin of the liberal left(saying something against the First Amendment,which I didn't do).



Actually, friend, you replied to a couple of people in a somewhat rude manner and basically subtly slapped the people here who said they thought porn was okay.

It's okay to not like porn, or agree with it as entertainment, but when you pretty much insinuate that any of us who watch porn from time to time is liable to "go deviant" at any time, it is construed as somewhat of an insult. It doesn't matter if you say, "Now, I'm not saying this is true, it's just that statistics show, etc, etc,." So basically you're saying, "I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but I am saying this is true." Which means that you're trying to protect yourself from criticism while at the same time stating a remark that so obviously invites criticism. The "chuck and duck" method, what they call it.

[Chosen Raven]

Actually, friend, you replied to a couple of people in a somewhat rude manner and basically subtly slapped the people here who said they thought porn was okay.

Did you even read my first post? Here it is:


Well, since I don't agree with the lifestyle I'm against it. Hentai however, I think is sick tastless crap and should be booted out of America no matter how "deep" the story is.

I did not insult anyone. I just stated my belief on the subject. Mynd Hed and BrendaBat then proceeded to be sarcastic and rude. So I followed up with some of the same. Look at the first post of people before you say who started what.


It's okay to not like porn, or agree with it as entertainment, but when you pretty much insinuate that any of us who watch porn from time to time is liable to "go deviant" at any time, it is construed as somewhat of an insult. It doesn't matter if you say, "Now, I'm not saying this is true, it's just that statistics show, etc, etc,." So basically you're saying, "I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but I am saying this is true." Which means that you're trying to protect yourself from criticism while at the same time stating a remark that so obviously invites criticism. The "chuck and duck" method, what they call it.

No statistic says that things happen 100% of the time, so I'm not going to say that they do. You can misconstrue it into my trying to protect myself all you want, but it'll continue to be untrue.

[MachSabre]

Heated conversations about the deviancy/non-deviacy of pornographic material does not belong on the Anime Forum. People have the right to fight and believe in any practice or social theory that they wish to...

...But this discussion has nothing to do with anime anymore, outside of Hentai... And according to the rules, hentai discussions are not allowed on this forum for obvious reasons. So, once again... I get to close a thread, despite my warning. Yay. :/

But before I do, I would like to point out that I do not appreciate someone coming to this forum and start preaching thier socio-political beliefs. I do not care if it is Antiporn, Proporn, Republican, Democrat, Pro Iraqi War, Anti Iraqi War, or whatever the hell. None of these subject has anything to do with Anime, much less the topic at hand. That's why we got that forum called Cafe' Toon Zone and our Private Messenger systems. If anyone feels that this subject is so important to discuss, then I recommend taking this conversation over the Cafe' Toon Zone and entertain the mods there. (I just know Nightflower is gonna kill me for this.)

*racks shotgun and points it to the back of the thread's head.*

BOOM!

Thread's dead.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking to everyone here. There's no good reason this topic should ever have come up on the Anime forum.