Under Attack?

[Dante Bunny]

Are you guys aware that we're been under attack?

Are we near our ends?

Or I'm being paranoid?

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by G.I. D'oh!
Are you guys aware that we're been under attack?

Are we near our ends?

Or I'm being paranoid?

I think it safe to say that we all are aware of unfolding events.

yes, it's scary, esp. for the young

stay alert AND calm

[Danielle]

Originally posted by happyheathen


stay alert AND calm

It's pretty hard to stay calm, knowing that this could be the start of WWIII.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

We gotta stay calm as everyone else has said. Primarily, I hope this is not the start of a War but just a random terrorist attack. That's probably, aside from news of catching the idiots who did this, the best news we can get.

Check out the AniGen board for more news...

[Dante Bunny]

I don't like to point fingers and all but is the thunderhead who is behind all this is Saddam Husen?


I will check out AniGen for more news, thanks BB.

[Roman Legion]

I agree staying calm is a good thing, but I don't think it's an option for a lot of unfortunate people right now... Just so long as those in power keep their heads screwed on.

But I doubt this event can be called "random" in any way. Unfortunately, even if it is terrorist in nature (as I suspect), confirming the true source may not be easy.

Keep your prayers open for Harl's stepdad, folks. =/

--Romey

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Many say that Osama Bin Ladin is behind this, because he had the money and supplies to actually pull off this attack; many of your local terrorist jerks cannot have the smarts or money to get a plane. Also, Bin Ladin had been said to be planning something big....this was likely it.
Hussain, I suspect, is too busy defending his country to do something like this.

I pray this is not the precursor to something big as well. If it is, all I can do is say "Oh God..."

[Dante Bunny]

Harley's stepdad in the Trade Towers? Please let him be alright!

As for the dorks who blast the Trade Towers, burn in---I can't say that in this forum, sorry.

[DR. BELCH]

G.I. D'oh!
Harley's stepdad in the Trade Towers? Please let him be alright!
With any luck, the disaster happened before he arrived. Cold comfort to those who died or know someone who died in the tragedy, I suppose...and within days we'll hear brainless glurge about how God spared someone with car trouble or an unexpected journey to the lavatory that bought them a few extra minutes. Sometimes the worst things about a tragedy isn't its deaths but the vultures who profit from it with that sort of mindless, saccharine yammering.


As for the dorks who blasted the Trade Towers, burn in---I can't say that in this forum, sorry.
--The fires of Gehenna. I'll finish the line for you gladly.
Although Hussein may not be personally responsible, I wouldn't be surprised if he's in an Iraqi bunker watching news coverage on his TV and holding a wineglass aloft with joy. Maybe I'll post an anti-Saddam avatar up in the next couple of weeks.... >8D
What angered me even more than the initial news of the blast is that the Palestinians are dancing in the streets cheering "death to the Great Satan" and toasting to our misfortune....

[Singin' Stray Cat]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH

...What angered me even more than the initial news of the blast is that the Palestinians are dancing in the streets cheering "death to the Great Satan" and toasting to our misfortune....

:mad: Me too. The death of even one person, much less untold numbers of them (and innocent ones besides), is no cause to celebrate.

[Vin]

I live in NY, as well as other TZ staff members and I must say, this is truly horrible. I live on Long Island, so I wasn't directly effected, but I have a lot of family members working in the city. Two of which, my uncles, are fire fighters.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Hey, Palestine, why not get off your *** and go back to whining about Israel? Or are you tired of getting beat up by them and need to go cheer at us for a break? :rollseyes:

I am not racist like that normally, but that truly got me angry when I heard about that; Americans have feelings too on thier country. A action against the U.S. like that is still racist.

CRUD!! I forgot about all the media stories that'll come outta this like BELCH said! Remember the mother who profiteered from "SHE SAID YES"? (shudders)

Sorry for all the remarks, but I feel my anger welling up again...

EDIT: Okay, I said I was sorry before, but I'll say it again. I'm sorry, but considering that thousands have died and they are dancing in the streets about it, it blew a nerve...

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Vince
I live in NY, as well as other TZ staff members and I must say, this is truly horrible. I live on Long Island, so I wasn't directly effected, but I have a lot of family members working in the city. Two of which, my uncles, are fire fighters. I hope all your family is ok.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon
Hey, Palestine, why not get off your *** and go back to whining about Israel?

While my own sister is living there? Maybe they should just whine about their oral hygiene; they stink mentally and physically.



Or are you tired of getting beat up by them and need to go cheer at us for a break? :rollseyes:

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, I think it's that.




CRUD!! I forgot about all the media stories that'll come outta this like BELCH said! Remember the mother who profiteered from "SHE SAID YES"? (shudders)

No........I mean, yes.......I mean, well, she said yes, but I'm saying no, I don't remember. :confused:


Harley, I really hope your stepdad's okay. Do you, perchance, know his name & his mother's name?

[Danielle]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH

...and within days we'll hear brainless glurge about how God spared someone with car trouble or an unexpected journey to the lavatory that bought them a few extra minutes. Sometimes the worst things about a tragedy isn't its deaths but the vultures who profit from it with that sort of mindless, saccharine yammering.



Not all of them are really brainless glurge. A few miraculous ( & true) stories have been told that actually saved a person's life. There's that one story about the man who learned how to talk to birds......well, maybe that one's false. But there are many true stories about things that people didn't think worked out right actually saving their lives.

[happyheathen]

Why is the US considered 'the great satan'?

[Bird Boy]

yeah..staying calm is good..

the first thought that popped in my head though, was "WWIII"..but..I hope Bush is smart enough not to declare WW3...I think everyone can agree we don't want that.

Once again....I would like to say "Why can't we all just get along?" ...not everybody has to be stupid, pig-headed nitwits..I know we all have our own ideas...but..COME ON....this is pathetic.....as old as this planet it is, we're still fighting....that is truely the sad part..you'd think we'd be able to think of somthing more creative then running a plane into a building...

-BB

[Nftnat]

Whoa, so much negativity to which to reply, but considering today's events what do I expect. And the ramifications will drag on for years, so... Well, all the more reason to keep thinking good & happy & fun & funny thots. Same rationale behind keeping baseball & other sports going, even thru WWII. I'll confine my serious commentary to here, & then move on to the good stuff elsewhere.

Why can't we all just get along? Because there are those who will not have it. There are those who hate Americans for their very way of life. There are those who hate others for not believing everything they believe. And if you think it's all just a matter of social inequity which will go away if everyone is as well off as everyone else, may I remind you that Osama Bin Ladin is a multi-millionaire & Hussein has how many palaces?

As to certain Palestinian groups in particular, it's all about Israel. They refuse to accept Israel's right to exist. There are elements in numerous Muslim countries in agreement. Since the creation of the modern country of Israel in 1948, from the very first day, there have been periodic attempts of their neighbors to destroy it, wipe it off the face of the earth, drive it into the sea. There is pandemic, almost pathological, hatred of the Jews. Afaik Syria still shelters Nazi war criminal Alois Brunner. His first day there a government official told him, "You are welcome here. Enemies of the Jews are our friends." In 1948, in 1967, in 1973, Israel fought off its neighbors for its very existence. Why did Israel take the Golan, the West Bank, southern Lebanon, the Sinai? For protection. The Jews don't want to die, & they have taken whatever steps they consider necessary to protect themselves, & can we really blame them for that? And the other side doesn't respond to reason or even to concessions; as proof, what happened when Barak gave Arafat more than he asked for? To this day, read a Palestinian newspaper or schoolbook, try to pick up a radio or tv broadcast, listen to what they're saying to their own people. These people are being indoctrinated from the cradle to be satisfied with nothing less than the absolute cessation of Israel from existence.

So why attack US? Because the US is Israel's friend. And the US is the chief Christian nation, @ least in name if not in fact. They will continue to hate the US for kind of the same reason they continue to hate Israel. How to solve this problem? Well, the US could abandon its entire way of life, become a Muslim theocracy under command of the mullahs, & join them in Jihad; other than that I dunno. Or the US could find out who in particular did this & take care of them.

And I think our president will do that. Media caricatures to the contrary, he is not stupid. You don't go through or even get into law school or fly fighter planes by being stupid. And he's no kid either. Our current president was born before his opponent in the previous election & his predecessor. He's in his '50's. How a person in his '50's can be considered a kid... And he's surrounded himself with trusted, proven experts he can trust. No shame in that either. Even Henry Ford said he didn't need to know everything because he had experts @ his call; it was just a matter of knowing which button to push.

And as to any good stories that come out of this, I will welcome them. With so much bad news, in the words of the Anne Murray song, we sure could use a little good news today. I will regard them as diamonds among the dungheap. Why the people about whom we will hear survive when so many others don't I don't know, but they do, & I will be thankful for that. I'm reminded of the old story about the kid & starfish; y'all probably know what I mean.

I will continue to pray for Harl's stepdad & for everyone else about whom there's still any question whether they're alive or not. Harley, Brian, Craig, Vince, & all other New Yorkers, our thoughts are with you. See y'all, hopefully in better times. And may God help us. Amen.

[Batgirl_2005]

We're either not creative enough, or just too incompetent... or is that the same thing...
Keep everyone in your prayers and as said above stay calm.
I really don't think this is the star of WW3... But maybe I'm being naive. It's a scarry thought, one that I choose not to think about.
Peace is good... We SHOULD all get along. It's depressing that we don't.

*batchik*

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Nftnat
Whoa, so much negativity to which to reply, but considering today's events what do I expect. And the ramifications will drag on for years, so... Well, all the more reason to keep thinking good & happy & fun & funny thots. Same rationale behind keeping baseball & other sports going, even thru WWII. I'll confine my serious commentary to here, & then move on to the good stuff elsewhere.

Why can't we all just get along? Because there are those who will not have it. There are those who hate Americans for their very way of life. There are those who hate others for not believing everything they believe. And if you think it's all just a matter of social inequity which will go away if everyone is as well off as everyone else, may I remind you that Osama Bin Ladin is a multi-millionaire & Hussein has how many palaces?

As to certain Palestinian groups in particular, it's all about Israel. They refuse to accept Israel's right to exist. There are elements in numerous Muslim countries in agreement. Since the creation of the modern country of Israel in 1948, from the very first day, there have been periodic attempts of their neighbors to destroy it, wipe it off the face of the earth, drive it into the sea. There is pandemic, almost pathological, hatred of the Jews. Afaik Syria still shelters Nazi war criminal Alois Brunner. His first day there a government official told him, "You are welcome here. Enemies of the Jews are our friends." In 1948, in 1967, in 1973, Israel fought off its neighbors for its very existence. Why did Israel take the Golan, the West Bank, southern Lebanon, the Sinai? For protection. The Jews don't want to die, & they have taken whatever steps they consider necessary to protect themselves, & can we really blame them for that? And the other side doesn't respond to reason or even to concessions; as proof, what happened when Barak gave Arafat more than he asked for? To this day, read a Palestinian newspaper or schoolbook, try to pick up a radio or tv broadcast, listen to what they're saying to their own people. These people are being indoctrinated from the cradle to be satisfied with nothing less than the absolute cessation of Israel from existence.

So why attack US? Because the US is Israel's friend. And the US is the chief Christian nation, @ least in name if not in fact. They will continue to hate the US for kind of the same reason they continue to hate Israel. How to solve this problem? Well, the US could abandon its entire way of life, become a Muslim theocracy under command of the mullahs, & join them in Jihad; other than that I dunno. Or the US could find out who in particular did this & take care of them.

And I think our president will do that. Media caricatures to the contrary, he is not stupid. You don't go through or even get into law school or fly fighter planes by being stupid. And he's no kid either. Our current president was born before his opponent in the previous election & his predecessor. He's in his '50's. How a person in his '50's can be considered a kid... And he's surrounded himself with trusted, proven experts he can trust. No shame in that either. Even Henry Ford said he didn't need to know everything because he had experts @ his call; it was just a matter of knowing which button to push.

And as to any good stories that come out of this, I will welcome them. With so much bad news, in the words of the Anne Murray song, we sure could use a little good news today. I will regard them as diamonds among the dungheap. Why the people about whom we will hear survive when so many others don't I don't know, but they do, & I will be thankful for that. I'm reminded of the old story about the kid & starfish; y'all probably know what I mean.

I will continue to pray for Harl's stepdad & for everyone else about whom there's still any question whether they're alive or not. Harley, Brian, Craig, Vince, & all other New Yorkers, our thoughts are with you. See y'all, hopefully in better times. And may God help us. Amen.


I think you'd make a wonderful President, Nftnat.

[Craig Marinaro]

For once, the news people aren't exaggerating when they call this "the greatest tragedy in America's history." It's just the most incredible thing I've ever heard.

Can't really think of anything to say.

[Harley]

Wow. What's a person to say after a day like today? I'd be responding to a zillion e-mails, so I'll just post it right here.

I woke up in my fairly new apartment this morning and made my way to work, grumpily, as usual. Sat down at my desk, and all of a sudden I heard someone mention a plane crashing into one of the towers. I ran into one of the other offices. Jon, one of my co-workers said that the plane flew very close to us. We all ran into another company's office and stared out the window at this huge gash in one of the towers.

We were in shock. Another co-worker ran from there to his phone. Dozens of friends in the towers. I went back to my desk and sat down, just completely out of it. Radios went on all around the office.

A few minutes later, I heard someone yell that another plane went into the other tower. I leapt to my feet and ran back to the other company's space and stared. Both buildings with a great deal of smoke and flames. Someone yelled out, "That had to be deliberate!". Someone else, "I'm getting the f--- out of here now!"

I took that as my cue. I got my bag and my notebook. Left everything else and took my butt downstairs. Several co-workers and I went off in search of a phone.

After walking a few blocks, I realized that my stepfather was actually supposed to be in the office today. Back in January, he had a lung removed due to cancer. It didn't hit me because he hadn't started going back into work until last week. We had already been through so much, I couldn't bear to think... but I figured the best place to be, regardless, was with my family.

Half the phones I came across were down due to the chaos, but I came across a working one. I immediately called home and left a message asking if Michael, my stepdad, was supposed to be in the office or out in the field today. I called Brian and let him know I was making my way back towards the Bronx and possibly to Yonkers if I couldn't get a hold of my family.

I hopped a train to try and get as far north as possible. I knew they were going to shut them down eventually. When I got to 96th st., I called home again. Got my brother this time. I was relieved to get someone. We decided he should keep trying to get in touch with our mother. I hopped back on the train and got up to 168th St. before they finally shut all public transportation down. During that time, I just kinda sat in a corner and tried my damnedest to keep my composure. It was tough, I really just wanted to break down and cry.

Called home again to check in. Got my mother this time. Thank, god. We figured the best thing to do would be for me to walk over one of the bridges to the Bronx and she would meet me somewhere.

So I walked. A lot. When I got to the bridge at 155th St, it was closed. People were being turned away because a suitcase, which was thought to be a bomb, had been found. I saw another bridge further downtown and started walking. Really, the only thing that mattered to me at this point was making sure my family was okay. The idea of another 10-15 blocks bothered me very little at that point.

Once I got across the bridge, I made my way up to the nearest phones. That would be back up to 161st St., by Yankee Stadium. I called Brian and asked him to keep calling my mother, even though most phones were down at that point. And I waited. My mother and brother, even though they didn't know exactly where I was, logically deduced where I might be. Closest phone to the 155th St. Bridge was at Yankee Stadium. Who knew?

We went to the school where my mother taught and did some busy work. Closing up shop. Putting things away... and then decided the best place to be was home waiting for calls and calling people to make sure they were okay.

Flipped the t.v. and watched. I hadn't even known that the towers had collapsed till then. I heard tons of things along the way.... car bomb in the pentagon... plane hit the pentagon. My uncle's okay, check. Father's okay, check. Mother and brother... check. All that was left to do was wait and see if Michael would call. I was exhausted... mentally and physically. So I decided to take a nap in my mother's bed.

When I woke up, it was because I heard a yell. I thought I heard my mother yell, "Michael!" in my daze. I leapt to my feet, threw on my glasses and ran out of the bedroom. It was him! Never in my life have I been so damned glad to see the man. We all ran up and just hugged each other.

He missed being up on the 87th floor of the 2nd tower by five minutes. He left home a little late. He had forgotten to brush his teeth and in his usual anal manner, needed to make sure everything was okay in the household before he left. Thank, god. I'll never argue with the man for cleaning up as I'm preparing food again.

He had gotten about as far as the main lobby when the first plane hit and was turned away. He spent most of his day trying to make his way home and didn't get here till 4pm or so.

I am so relieved and so happy that we came through this. I didn't think my family would make it through without a loss on this one.

I consider this an act of war. What happened today was absolutely atrocious. The animals who did this need to be held accountable for their actions. In New York alone, the death tolls are expected to be in the thousands. 70,000 people worked and visited the towers on any given day.

But, everyone who doesn't have a family member or friend in today's tragedies needs to remain calm. There's nothing you can do right now but wait for whatever happens next. Just go up to the family member within your household right now and give them the biggest frickin' hug you can muster and thank your local deity for them still being alive. As long as you have your family, friends and loved ones, everything is okay. Let's stop this talk of blasting people at the moment and just be thankful for what we have.

So, I'll catch everyone when I've regained some of my sanity. It's been a rough day. I think that it's time for me to go curl into a ball and hide out for the rest of the night. I'll be at my mother's for the evening.

Vince, Craig, my prayers are with any family you had in the city today. Let me know if everything's okay.

Take care.

[Dee]

We all hurt... and even in a cartoon sense... we suffer because the trade center is such an important piece of EVERYTHING. Even we can say the MIB have suffered a blow to their home town.

[Danielle]

Pictures of the Catastrophe (http://home-news.excite.com/photo/ap/010911/13/news-trade-center-crash) from Excite.com.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Seeing the WTC blow up still scares the heck outta me.

And I was sick today....I got up around 9:30 A.M. to get something to eat, and turn on the computer for some laughs. I go to Toon Zone, see Silverkinght's thread, do as she said, and could not believe my eyes when I saw the video of the buildings collapse...

New York and America will never be the same. This could be our greatest test in a LONG time...
...hey, Nftnat, I'll vote for ya if you run for president! :)

Also, I applaud Bush for taking action so soon. That's a commendable act. Also, I am glad all the New York/D.C. Toon Zone members are safe.

[RockItShipper]

Well, I'm glad all of you didn't get hurt...

I didn't venture out much today as I had planned to, but even on the upper east side.... The whole city was tense. Many ppl talking on cell phones, worried looks, radios on in the street.... But the sky was bright blue, the 'war zone' completely out of view if you looked towards downtown...

I just saw what was on tv, starting with the 4 minutes before the second jet kamikaze'd into the Towers... (My dad saw it actually happen from his office near Penn Station)

Lots of worried phone calls (including from my 2nd youngest sis, Jojo at USC) got me out of my pajamas and into sweats to check on my littlest sis and the 'leaving early' rate at her school... I couldn't really tell, but my dad called me to pick her up while I was on the way...

Then, the two of us stocked up- the scene at the grocery store being similiar to the one I remember from the LA Riots... I had my doubts about taking her out of school or stocking up, but we needed milk anyway.. Or whatever... I was out of sorts and not particularly in the mood to take risks even if my little sister held a spot in line until the very end and then left, leaving us to wait in another long line... Dragged the groceries home, took 'em out of their NY-skyline-print bags...

Tried finding something to feed the little one without making the same thing she had the night before or attempting to cook... So "Muppet Christmas Carol" was put on pause and we headed up the street to a diner. All the way, seeing every retailer closed except for the bank and, thankfully, the diner. I checked up on the classes scheduled to start tonight, but no luck. SVA's closed for the next 2 days at least. My mom, still waiting to get back in Manhattan, called to fret about the administration at my little sister's school- real jerkoffs, that bunch...

Took the little one home after lunch, had her do all her non-reading homework... Then my dad came home while little sis was playing Harry Potter e-games... I then took her into the backyard and we played a bit, while Dad made phone calls to people who'd called earlier and ones he wanted to check up on... My little sis watched the rest of "Muppet Xmas Carol"... Dad heated up some soup he'd picked up on the way home, and started cooking chicken... And then, Mom came home... She'd finally gotten out of the towncar and made her way home through the subway in the Bronx. She was pretty cranky, especially seeing that Dad had started some projects in the kitchen but she calmed down fairly quick.

When "Muppets" finished, the news were put back on... saw Dubya's speech, and now I'm talking to all of you...

Looks as I have another week before I start class, but it's really not worth it.... Oh well, I know what to do tommorrow...

http://www.nybloodcenter.org/blood_window.htm

[Dante Bunny]

I glad that you're okay!!!!! I thought you were gone forever, I'm so glad! Thank you Lord!!!!:)

[Sharklady]

I caught the story early too- my Mom turned on the TV set around 9 AM to get the weather, and instead got a live shot of the first Tower in flames. The commentator was speculating that the plane may have made a navigational error. Then the second plane hit, and we all knew what that meant.

The TV set stayed on for most of the day, tho I tore myself away a few times; I was just getting too queasy, and angry. This is the Pearl Harbor Day of my lifetime- no question in my mind that this is an act of war, and the perpetrators deserve the most severe possible punishment (but I will *not* call them animals; that's more insult than the animals deserve.)

Right now, I'm just hoping the investigators will do their jobs properly and identify who's actually responsible, and that no hot-heads will jump the gun and start making relatiations on innocent people. We absolutely don't need *any* more of that.

[Dante Bunny]

At the gas station, I fill my mom's car to $13.00. I don't know why that everybody have to fill their gas tank. Is it have to do with the plane crash and all?

[Narfpinky]

I just want to give my best wishes to everyone who has family still missing.

[Roman Legion]

Really glad to hear you & your family are ok, Harl... I've been worrying myself sick about that all day. Whenever things calm down enough for you to call, le'me know. =/

Romey
--Still praying for those with family unaccounted for...

[Batgirl_2005]

This is all so scarry. i can't believe it's happening. This morning i was in denial. just sort of like, 'right... this isn't hapening... i'm still dreaming...' then this evening it really sunk in. It's like... dude. this is the beginning of the end.

another really scarry thing my older bro brought up is, i live right near a dam and powerplant which supply power to a lot of the southwest. My bro says that these persuns might try that soon. i almost ran and hid under my bed!!!
And I don't even know if it's true.

And in case you didn't kno, it's not just America that has airports and so forth shut down. Moscow is completely cut off, along with several other places. EVERYONE is affected by this. EVERYWHERE.

I feel so badly for you Harley and anyone else in NY right now. I can't even imagine what your life is like right now.

Love and Prayers to everyone, everywhere.

*batchik*

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm here. Sorry I missed you all yesterday (and posted in the anigen board instead) but... I was so tired I didn't even see the thread. I was so tired when I got back home a 8:30 (after working for 12 hours) that when my parents called, I answered the phone with my office courtesy message rather than "hello?"

I'm a journalist, and I was covering these absolutely unbelievable events all day. I gave an account over on the other board... I apologize for not pasting/linking them here, but I don't know how long I have to talk before I have to rush to work again.

After 10:00, I had to shut off all the details and just concentrate on getting my stories done. Like the rush on gas stations... that kind of move just seemed trivial, but it seemed like in the wake of such a disaster, people wanted to do something, ANYTHING. Maybe it was better to wait in line than to do nothing and wonder.

Anyway, I didn't get the full details of what's known today... and it was almost as big a shock for me today as yesterday. Maybe everyone's getting this second day shock... I know that, as much as we expect the worst, the nation is going to let out a collective, pained "Oh my God" when the death tolls are released.

I just hope no one panics... the minor scuffles at the gas stations were bad enough. I hope people don't jump to conclusions about who to blame, and I hope this doesn't lead into a new racism against Middle Eastern people. I hope we find out beyond a shadow of a doubt which group did this before we take action. And I hope our actions are strong yet contained, and neutralize those responsible without inadvertaintly striking those who are innocent.

It's going to be a long week...

[DR. BELCH]

This is what I've begun calling it since my sister-in-law pointed out the date yesterday--September 11. As in 9-1-1. It seems that number holds symbolism to these terrorists, as a lot of their attacks occur on that date...the Ben Ladens and the McVeighs and such have a deeply perverse sense of humor. Also, if my dates are right, 11 years ago we had the Persian Gulf War and the senior Bush in power, going face to face with that whacky Iraqui Saddam, who had just set Kuwait's oil wells to burning like Roman candles.
My brother Ben called me about 5 in the afternoon about the gas price increase (which to me seemed like a total non sequitur that accomplished nothing but punishing the American people). They came over about half past six, and all during dinner we watched CNN. The President spoke at half past seven. His speech lasted less than five minutes, and carried both anger at the terrorists and hope for the American masses. In it I heard shades of Reagan telling Mr. Gorbechev, "Tear down that wall." We all noted that unlike his predecessor he didn't ramble on for two hours and talk mostly about himself. Young Mr. Bush showed his detractors he had gravitas and at least as much presidential timber as his father...perhaps more.
I also noted that if not for the second plane, the damage and casualties would have been minimal...the top of the first tower was damaged, but the structure was fairly sound and would have been a relatively simple consruction job. But when the second tower was struck in the center, it fell...and the sound waves from the blast took out its neighbor like a cake falling in the oven when a door slams. It was as if the first crash was to get our hopes up, to make us say, "Well, it's bad, but reparable," and the second attack designed to rob us of that tiny hope.
My brother and I discussed the elevators in the Towers and what might have happened when the plane hit. He figures the passengers were killed instantly; I say if the elevator brakes worked and the people got out (either by the doors automatically opening or having to be pried) and they managed to reach the stairs in time, they might have lived. Still, it begs the question of whether a person could decend at least forty stories of steps in minutes before tons of plaster and glass fell down on them.
Delia is right. That line about the Towers in "The Neuralizer Syndrome" will ring sour from now on. If Cartoon Network buys the show they may even cut that exchange. :(

[robert]

I already posted my day on the H! Board, I found out of the events at 9:40 and was dismissed from school at 12, they canceled schools today which explains why I'm posting now. I am _so_ relieved that no one here suffered any losses yesterday, and I can't express how happy I am that Harley had one bright moment happen when he found out his Grandad was alive. As for the future....I think Bush has a grace period now because it'll be days before the offical death count is figured out, and when it is people will call for him to declare some sort of action, maybe not war but who knows. No one's ever going to remember anything he does in his Precidency except this, so he should make it good, he's off to a fine start.
At least this is the first time a story will be covered to no end that deserves to.

[Anthonynotes]

What Hatter and Robert said....though despite Hatter's comments, I'm fearing that this will turn into some mindless "bomb them back to the stone age, innocents included" demand from the general public and/or xenophobia/racism against Muslims and those of Arab descent living here, vs. merely working to bring to justice those who did this without harming any more innocents (via indiscriminate bombing).

As for "this has never happened before", though not on as massive a scale in terms of the death toll, there is the Oklaholma City tragedy, which I'd presume that (eventually) this will be compared to...

-B.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Brainatra

As for "this has never happened before", though not on as massive a scale in terms of the death toll, there is the Oklaholma City tragedy, which I'd presume that (eventually) this will be compared to...



It already has been compared to the Oklahoma City bombing. It was on a radio station, but I forget which. Oh well.

[Sharklady]

> That line about the Towers in "The Neuralizer Syndrome" will ring sour from now on. <

I will never find the 'Homer vs. New York City' ep funny again, either.

> Still, it begs the question of whether a person could decend at least forty stories of steps in minutes before tons of plaster and glass fell down on them. <

At least some people did make it out from as high as the 65th floor- Peter Jennings interviewed one of them. Apparently they made it to a staircase and ran all the way down. Unfortunately, it looks as though they were the exception.

I was worried about my cousin's husband for a while- he's a fireman in New Jersey. It turns out his unit was on Standby, but didn't actually get called in before the buildings collapsed, so he was nowhere nearby. And my frequent-flyer federal-employee brother-in-law Phil was in his Chicago office at the time- they evacuated his building as a precaution, and the subways were jammed getting home, but that was the worst he got. The same happened to my brother Steve.

The one member of my family who's being most directly affected is my aunt Karen, an ordained minister who was called in to attend the dying at a NYC hospital and hasn't been out since, they're so swamped. As she's very tender-hearted, I'm sure she must be having a particularly hard time. I may go pay her a visit when she finally gets home.

May God help out nation through this very traumatic period.

[Radar]

I think it's good the congress is thinking of putting it down on paper as a declaration of war when ever we find out who or whom is involved. this way there will be no question and all forces will be at bear when we go in it will have a final conclusion no vietnam, no sariavo etc no so called police action any country supports or enemy will be facing an act of war against us and the nato allience. i'm sure even if 3 or 4 countries are involved lets say afganistan, iran, possibly iraque or pakistian or syria it will be quick and decisive and they will loose their country. They must and will pay and most of the world agrees.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

I hope if we go to war it is quick. We do not need to turn hypocrites and kill many innocents....and that's why I hope we don't use weapons of MASS destruction like missles...

The Simpsons eppy may simply be edited. But I too will look at it oddly...and the joke with the towers has lost its allure...

...still, some people made it from that high, I hear one guy made it from story 109! And many helped others along the way too. I commend them.

[gfoyle]

Hey,
I haven't posted in awhile here, I visit regularly and read the news and posts practically everyday, but I rarely feel moved to post. I remembered that several of you are from New York and I wanted to drop by and check on you and offer my prayers to you and all the victims and thier families. As some of you know I live right outside of DC, where we also had an attack. It was not close to the magnitude of the NY disaster, but more innocent americans were lost. My brother was fortunate enough to be taking a work related class or he would have been at the Pentagon. Well, as I said, you have all my prayers and those of my family. I've kept my children close to me all day and I hope that you are all able to hold your love ones and friends too. If you have lost family, friends or aquantances, you have my condolences. God please give us strength and please watch over those souls that were lost today, and please let there be no more senseless terrorism.

Originally posted by Harley
Wow. What's a person to say after a day like today? I'd be responding to a zillion e-mails, so I'll just post it right here.

I woke up in my fairly new apartment this morning and made my way to work, grumpily, as usual. Sat down at my desk, and all of a sudden I heard someone mention a plane crashing into one of the towers. I ran into one of the other offices. Jon, one of my co-workers said that the plane flew very close to us. We all ran into another company's office and stared out the window at this huge gash in one of the towers.

We were in shock. Another co-worker ran from there to his phone. Dozens of friends in the towers. I went back to my desk and sat down, just completely out of it. Radios went on all around the office.

A few minutes later, I heard someone yell that another plane went into the other tower. I leapt to my feet and ran back to the other company's space and stared. Both buildings with a great deal of smoke and flames. Someone yelled out, "That had to be deliberate!". Someone else, "I'm getting the f--- out of here now!"

I took that as my cue. I got my bag and my notebook. Left everything else and took my butt downstairs. Several co-workers and I went off in search of a phone.

After walking a few blocks, I realized that my stepfather was actually supposed to be in the office today. Back in January, he had a lung removed due to cancer. It didn't hit me because he hadn't started going back into work until last week. We had already been through so much, I couldn't bear to think... but I figured the best place to be, regardless, was with my family.

Half the phones I came across were down due to the chaos, but I came across a working one. I immediately called home and left a message asking if Michael, my stepdad, was supposed to be in the office or out in the field today. I called Brian and let him know I was making my way back towards the Bronx and possibly to Yonkers if I couldn't get a hold of my family.

I hopped a train to try and get as far north as possible. I knew they were going to shut them down eventually. When I got to 96th st., I called home again. Got my brother this time. I was relieved to get someone. We decided he should keep trying to get in touch with our mother. I hopped back on the train and got up to 168th St. before they finally shut all public transportation down. During that time, I just kinda sat in a corner and tried my damnedest to keep my composure. It was tough, I really just wanted to break down and cry.

Called home again to check in. Got my mother this time. Thank, god. We figured the best thing to do would be for me to walk over one of the bridges to the Bronx and she would meet me somewhere.

So I walked. A lot. When I got to the bridge at 155th St, it was closed. People were being turned away because a suitcase, which was thought to be a bomb, had been found. I saw another bridge further downtown and started walking. Really, the only thing that mattered to me at this point was making sure my family was okay. The idea of another 10-15 blocks bothered me very little at that point.

Once I got across the bridge, I made my way up to the nearest phones. That would be back up to 161st St., by Yankee Stadium. I called Brian and asked him to keep calling my mother, even though most phones were down at that point. And I waited. My mother and brother, even though they didn't know exactly where I was, logically deduced where I might be. Closest phone to the 155th St. Bridge was at Yankee Stadium. Who knew?

We went to the school where my mother taught and did some busy work. Closing up shop. Putting things away... and then decided the best place to be was home waiting for calls and calling people to make sure they were okay.

Flipped the t.v. and watched. I hadn't even known that the towers had collapsed till then. I heard tons of things along the way.... car bomb in the pentagon... plane hit the pentagon. My uncle's okay, check. Father's okay, check. Mother and brother... check. All that was left to do was wait and see if Michael would call. I was exhausted... mentally and physically. So I decided to take a nap in my mother's bed.

When I woke up, it was because I heard a yell. I thought I heard my mother yell, "Michael!" in my daze. I leapt to my feet, threw on my glasses and ran out of the bedroom. It was him! Never in my life have I been so damned glad to see the man. We all ran up and just hugged each other.

He missed being up on the 87th floor of the 2nd tower by five minutes. He left home a little late. He had forgotten to brush his teeth and in his usual anal manner, needed to make sure everything was okay in the household before he left. Thank, god. I'll never argue with the man for cleaning up as I'm preparing food again.

He had gotten about as far as the main lobby when the first plane hit and was turned away. He spent most of his day trying to make his way home and didn't get here till 4pm or so.

I am so relieved and so happy that we came through this. I didn't think my family would make it through without a loss on this one.

I consider this an act of war. What happened today was absolutely atrocious. The animals who did this need to be held accountable for their actions. In New York alone, the death tolls are expected to be in the thousands. 70,000 people worked and visited the towers on any given day.

But, everyone who doesn't have a family member or friend in today's tragedies needs to remain calm. There's nothing you can do right now but wait for whatever happens next. Just go up to the family member within your household right now and give them the biggest frickin' hug you can muster and thank your local deity for them still being alive. As long as you have your family, friends and loved ones, everything is okay. Let's stop this talk of blasting people at the moment and just be thankful for what we have.

So, I'll catch everyone when I've regained some of my sanity. It's been a rough day. I think that it's time for me to go curl into a ball and hide out for the rest of the night. I'll be at my mother's for the evening.

Vince, Craig, my prayers are with any family you had in the city today. Let me know if everything's okay.

Take care.

[Anthonynotes]

Re: "The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson": I never liked the episode much to begin with (despite kind of identifying with Homer's fears about big city life). Though to nitpick the episode, there's no way his car would've been merely given a ticket since the episode was made after the first WTC bombing several years ago. Still, I'd expect that the individual stations' syndicated Simpsons episode rotations won't be airing this episode outright permanently/for quite some time (whether Fox permanently opts to pull it from the syndicated episodes package, I have no idea...it'd lose too much air time/plot if all the WTC scenes were cut). Though I kind of wonder how many fannish types would demand (for reasons unbeknowest to me, as it wasn't that great an ep to begin with) to see this episode again someday (not caring what happened in New York yesterday)....

As for what happened, I would like to see that the perpetuators are brought to justice in a way that ensures that more innocent bystanders aren't killed...however, comments about "retaliation/revenge" and other factors (those in charge, human nature, etc.) lead me to cynically think/fear that some place is going to get bombed indiscriminately by the U.S. I also fear for a rise in anti-Arab/anti-Muslim sentiment in our country as a result of all this (at work tonight, I heard one customer complaining to someone about "camel jockeys"...).

I admit I don't know anyone in or even near NYC (not counting those on this/other Internet forums), so there's no personal stake (re: others I know) for me. Not being religious, I'm afraid I also don't have any prayers/theological offerings to give. Still, I do empathize with the victims (and their families), and hope they find solice through whatever positive means they choose...

-B.

[Nftnat]

Amen. Believe it or not, I agree with Brainatra & Hatter on this. I wish for us to bring to justice those who did this without harming the innocent. I wish we lived in a world where such a concept was a possibility. I wish it was possible to tell the innocent from the guilty. I wish there was no cause to question based on what people say about us, what they believe. I wish those people didn't hate us. I wish they felt compunctions about using their own children for terrorist ends. I wish people weren't indoctrinated with hate from birth. I wish these things hadn't happened. I wish there was such a thing in this world as absolute justice. I wish there was no ill will or resentment against us for simply being who & what we are. I wish there were no such things as hatred or war or murder. I wish.

[gfoyle]

You are very observant Nftnat, we all wish for the things you do. I just hope that all of those that have lived with a utopian vision of the world and an idealic view of politics will begin to accept the reality of the world we live in. Everyone wishes for a perfect justice and perfect solution to our many problems, but in such an inperfect world these wishes are nice fantasies, but unworkable and dangerous. Most real solutions to messy problems, are messy. No matter which choices leaders make, people are hurt. The idea is to make a choice that will benefit the most and hurt the least while accomplishing what needs to be done. This is for every issue, be it domestic, econimic, military...ect. To protect the liberaties of the majority of Americans, some liberaties will need to be infringed. To save many from suffering, some will be left behind. Out of good intentions, we've tried to save everyone in every instance. Stupid legislation, frivilious lawsuits and appeasement given to radical special interest groups have created a mish mash of hurdles that prevents us from servicing the majority of Americans fairly. We're like a doctor who worries so much about curing a patients hangnails, the patient dies from his gunshot wounds. By allowing ourselves and our liberaties to be slowly drained away, and by denigrating our goverment agencies we've allowed this terrible tragedy to occur and I ask God and these victims for forgiveness for my inaction. No matter how powerless I feel to stop the stupidity that runs rampant in our society, I will no longer sit by and watch it silently. Casting my vote and raising my kids right will no longer be my only action. I will speak up loudly against buearocrats and politicians who take a stand against military strength and who attack each other and goverment agencies for personal gain or ignorance. Who think that every problem in the world can be solve by talking and espouse the lie that "Violence never solved anything" Violence has played a major part in solving or deciding most major disagreements in world history. I love freedom and I love America, I don't want to see it stolen away because we raise our children to be "non competive" and to "talk or walk away" when confronted by a bully. There are things in this world worth fighting for and things worth dieing for. Peace is what we all want, but not at the price of freedom or our childrens future. Not at the price of cowering when Americans are killed because we don't want to be inconvienced. Nothing in life is free, money can buy many things, some things are so valuable they can not be bought by money, they cost blood. Freedom is one of these, we may have forgotten this, or some of us have been raised to believe that Freedom is our right, but it's not. It was bought with blood and we've had to maintain it with blood. And as long as we want it we will have to make periodic payment.

Originally posted by Nftnat
Amen. Believe it or not, I agree with Brainatra & Hatter on this. I wish for us to bring to justice those who did this without harming the innocent. I wish we lived in a world where such a concept was a possibility. I wish it was possible to tell the innocent from the guilty. I wish there was no cause to question based on what people say about us, what they believe. I wish those people didn't hate us. I wish they felt compunctions about using their own children for terrorist ends. I wish people weren't indoctrinated with hate from birth. I wish these things hadn't happened. I wish there was such a thing in this world as absolute justice. I wish there was no ill will or resentment against us for simply being who & what we are. I wish there were no such things as hatred or war or murder. I wish.

[Psycho Fox]

In responce to what posted by gfoyle said.

Amen.

Freedom is not given to us an a silver plate it has to be protected.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Amen.

Nftnat and Gfolye have given beautiful speeches. I need say no more other than I hope for the same things they wish for. May this wake up our government, citizens, and the world to what people will have to suffer through.

We must fight this evil to prevent it from happening again. We must not let Liberty slip through our fingers...

[Craig Marinaro]

Brainatra:

As for what happened, I would like to see that the perpetuators are brought to justice in a way that ensures that more innocent bystanders aren't killed...however, comments about "retaliation/revenge" and other factors (those in charge, human nature, etc.) lead me to cynically think/fear that some place is going to get bombed indiscriminately by the U.S.

Agreed entirely. I've heard tons of people throughout the course of the day, as the emotions of shock and sadness harden into bloodlust, ranting how they want a war simply for vengeance reasons. The coldest of all was someone who had seen the children in whichever Middle Eastern country it was on television dancing in the streets over this, and they said, "I just want to go over there, and take every one of those kids, and rip them apart in the cruelest, most agonizing way possible, one by one."

An attack is necessary. Maybe a war is necessary--this is a problem that we've been ignoring for far too long. And if nuking countries and destroying human lives is the only way to maintain "peace" in the world...well, it's pretty sick if it's come to that, but I guess we'll do what we have to.

But the terrorists who took the lives of all those innocent people did so in the name of a cause--an idea. They didn't do it because we were any risk to their existence, but because they wanted revenge on America as a whole, because they believe we're the scum of the Earth. If we succumb to that desire for vengeance--if we go into a country and start ripping lives apart just for the sheer hell of it--that's when we become as bad as them. As cliche as it is.

-C

[Harley]

Having had a couple of days to deal with this, here's a few thoughts going through my head.

I almost lost someone very dear to me the other day, who even if he wasn't in the blast, wouldn't have made it because he couldn't have walked down all those stairs with only one functioning lung. I have one co-worker who probably lost his girlfriend, one who might've lost his brother-in-law and another that lost several close friends because they were simply working on the floors that were hit.

I walked for two miles, through Harlem, to get back to the Bronx. I fought back tears the entire way. The thought of losing my stepfather after having to go through what we did in January? Not getting to say goodbye? The doctors gave an outlook of maybe five or six years at best due to the lung. To think of him dying in such a horrible, wretched, pointless manner... To die without your family around you?

A co-worker and I had a brief discussion about this shortly after the first plane hit. "Eileen, can you imagine it? We're typing away away on our computers. 'Hey, Eileen. Look, it's a plane. It's flying awful close. Holy...' We wouldn't even have a chance. Can you imagine?" All I could do was laugh nervously. Can you imagine?

I believe that whatever parties are behind this, and the parties sponsered them must be held accountable. There must be some retribution for all the pointless death and carnage that occurred the other day. They have shown a basic disregard for human life. We're not talking a couple of people. We're not even talking a couple of hundred people. We're talking at least 800 in the Pentagon blast and numbers in the thousands for the WTC. Thousands of people who didn't go home to their families that night.

There will hopefully be a war. There needs to be once the enemy is determined. They hit many of us right where it hurts and that was their intention. If the U.S. doesn't seek retribution for it's dead, then it will be perceived as a weak nation... ripe for the picking and open to more attacks just like this. As a nation, we've been many things, but not weak. And called me a pig-headed American, but I'd like to continuing walking to work with my head held high. I won't be able to do that if we just sit back and let such things happen.

I did want to explain some of the thought behind the, "socially acceptable racism". I don't agree with it, but I can understand it's purpose in times of war. Or at least how it's been used in times of war. It creates a common enemy. Something to rally against.

It's not easy to kill a person, but it's easy to kill a thing. It de-humanizes your enemy. You take away the thought of a soul. You throw them into a group and take away their individuality.

Suddenly the idea of a bullet piercing through them doesn't become quite as difficult to swallow if it's just a thing that embodies all you hate. Chances are, they already did the same for you as soon as you became that thing at the other end of their gun.

I can almost guarantee that those people that were sent careening into the Towers and the Pentagon weren't people to the terrorists. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the psychological aspect behind it.

Beyond the idea of a war, there are ideas that have to be extinguished. Socially acceptable racism isn't just an American thing. People are being taught to hate others from birth. They believe that the other person's ideas are fundamentally wrong simply because they don't share the same ones. It's not as simple as just blasting the hell out of some random group out there. As a nation and as a world, we need to seek out a new path.

Well, that's what's on my mind at the moment. I think I've done enough venting for the day. I'm going to go either play with the kitty, draw or go buy a baking sheet. I'm not sure which yet. New apartment, too much to do. I did want to say thanks to all those who did send their wishes. It means a lot.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Harley
There will hopefully be a war. There needs to be once the enemy is determined. They hit many of us right where it hurts and that was their intention. If the U.S. doesn't seek retribution for it's dead, then it will be perceived as a weak nation... ripe for the picking and open to more attacks just like this. As a nation, we've been many things, but not weak. And called me a pig-headed American, but I'd like to continuing walking to work with my head held high. I won't be able to do that if we just sit back and let such things happen. Yes, This is inhuman and goes aginst everything GOD and freedom stands for. A message must be sent out that people THIS SICK will be punished. I'm sure not just US but every country that can and is civilized will strike back.

[Sharklady]

> There will hopefully be a war. <

Personally, I'm hoping there won't be. I definitely want the monsters who did this to pay for it (or at least, come as close to it as we can manage on this earth), but it would be far preferable to achieve it without a declaration of war. Wars have a nasty tendency to drag you into things you didn't anticipate- I have seen this for myself, being old enough to remember the Vietnam War.

Let Justice be done.

And, equally importaint, let there be Healing.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Sharklady
> There will hopefully be a war. <

Personally, I'm hoping there won't be. I definitely want the monsters who did this to pay for it (or at least, come as close to it as we can manage on this earth), but it would be far preferable to achieve it without a declaration of war. Wars have a nasty tendency to drag you into things you didn't anticipate- I have seen this for myself, being old enough to remember the Vietnam War.

Let Justice be done.

And, equally importaint, let there be Healing.

For those too young...

See 'Tonkin Gulf' - this was the root of congressional authorization for Viet Nam (allegedly, N. Vietnamese patrol boats had fired on a US warship in the Gulf of Tonkin - several 100,000's of lives later, it was established that there was no such incident)

at least this time congress has declined to give such a blank check to the administration...

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Sharklady
> There will hopefully be a war. <

Personally, I'm hoping there won't be. I definitely want the monsters who did this to pay for it (or at least, come as close to it as we can manage on this earth), but it would be far preferable to achieve it without a declaration of war. Wars have a nasty tendency to drag you into things you didn't anticipate- I have seen this for myself, being old enough to remember the Vietnam War.

There has to be we were attacked in the a very inhuman way plus it is not just the US alot of other nations also want pay back. This will not be like a Vietnam since we pulled punches then this would be with our gloves taken off.

[Harley]

It would be great if we could solve things without war, but that's just not our world at this point. They sent us a message and they wrote it in blood. This isn't about walking away and showing that we're the better person or simply slapping them on the wrists.

These are obviously not people who prefer the word over the sword. They don't much seem to care to hear what we have to say. And if they won't listen to our words, what other recourse is there?

What level of justice do you see as fitting for a group that plowed two planes into buildings that contained up to 70,000 people on any given day? Costing the lives of the flight crew, the passengers, thousands in the buildings and the police and firemen still unaccounted for.

If we just sit back and lick our wounds, we will be perceived as a weak nation. If we let these guys get away with it, what's to stop others? And perhaps I'm being narrowminded, but I cannot see any form of retribution fitting enough other than physical action taken against the perpetrators. It's unfortunate, but that's all a great deal of people understand, brute force.

All I know is that on Monday, I have to go back into work and look into the eyes of those who lost friends and family. And even those who managed to come away with their relatives in tact will only be able to experience an uneasy happiness at best. They'll have lost any sense of security they have ever known. Grown men and women who will have fear in their eyes and their hearts. What kind of justice is suitable retribution for that?

SL, there was an interview with a highschooler who witnessed it all. I cannot post it on the boards. It's a little too graphic. But it's been ringing around in my head for the last few days, and it's part of the reasoning behind my views on this. I'll either e-mail or PM you with it.

[Psycho Fox]

I totaly agree with you Harl. In my eyes these people are just as sick and inhuman as Hitler was and they gave up every right they had legal and the ones in the Bible when they did this. And there are still tring to kill us, they would succeed again if we didn't have this high level of security right now. I hope we wipe every single soulless monster that planed, helped or even supported the inhuman actions of tuesday.

PM me the interview too. I won't be able to read it anytime soon couse I don't think I would be able to take it but send it to me anyway.

[DR. BELCH]

--that whatever we must do must be carefully thought-out. We must not behave in a manner that makes us little better than our enemies. We must not send our boys into a war without some notion of who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. We must not let jingoist thinking cloud our judgement. I'm hearing talk of bringing back internment camps and dropping the bomb on these enemy nations. First of all the Japanese camps were a measure of security then and by no means were they as horrible in their methods or in their intent as the Nazi camps; they were an indignity, yes, but we weren't gassing the Japanese and starving them in droves, and afterwards we apologized and returned their property to them. Secondly, the bomb was a last-ditch measure and not a move taken rashly and in anger. I'm not willing to crush an entire nation over the deeds of a group of madmen like Bin Laden or the Taliban.
I don't want to fight, but if we must let's at least do so with honor. Being strong doesn't mean being brutal.

[happyheathen]

of course there will be war - there has to be.

just go in knowing it may get difficult to know when its over...

[Craig Marinaro]

It's fairly obvious that retaliation is necessary. What I object to isn't the possibility of war. It's the fact that people are happy (or at least enthusiastic) about it. It's not a healthy state of mind to be going into this with.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Craig
It's fairly obvious that retaliation is necessary. What I object to isn't the possibility of war. It's the fact that people are happy (or at least enthusiastic) about it. It's not a healthy state of mind to be going into this with.

Pathetic, isn't it?

I fear we've raised a generation who thinks war is a video game.

they will get the idea pretty quick - especially if the media does its job (which it did not do during the 'desert storm' farce).

This one smells like another 'Nam - can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, kill indiscriminately, and have no exit strategy.

I was raised on 'turn on the 6:00 news and see Johnny get his head shot off' - looks like another generation gets that thrill...

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen


Pathetic, isn't it?

I fear we've raised a generation who thinks war is a video game.

they will get the idea pretty quick - especially if the media does its job (which it did not do during the 'desert storm' farce).

This one smells like another 'Nam - can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, kill indiscriminately, and have no exit strategy.

I was raised on 'turn on the 6:00 news and see Johnny get his head shot off' - looks like another generation gets that thrill... Look I know this could very well be a long war and possbile ugly war (most wars are) but do you want your childern and you children's children living in a nation where terrorist can brutally attack us on our own native soil? The allies are behind the idea of a no holds bar war meaning blitzkrieg tactics. If we can caputre the country Marshal Law could be used to help us get the terroirist I'm talkin search every hut, person ect just like how Pierre Trudeau got the terrorist in Monreal just go in and treat everyone like a suspect.

[Harley]

HH, you make a blanket statement that does not apply to the individuals involved in this discussion. This is more real to me than you could possibly know.

I'm not talking about war for the sake of war. I'm also not talking about bombing indiscriminately. But once the enemy is identified, there must be retribution for our dead, for the families who will never see them again and for those who just barely escaped.

While I know some folks have screamed for the indiscriminate bombing of whomever. I'm not. I want the perpetrators to be identified and then to pay for what they have cost us.

And just for the record, HH, I am a contributing member of society. I work very, very hard every day. I help my family out. I help my friends out. I wake up every morning with the hopes of being a good human being. I do not wake up in the morning hoping to see people shot or cause any carnage myself. I abhor senseless violence. I am neither five, nor an idiot. But I don't expect you to understand. You didn't see it happen.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Harley
HH, you make a blanket statement that does not apply to the individuals involved in this discussion. This is more real to me than you could possibly know.

I'm not talking about war for the sake of war. I'm also not talking about bombing indiscriminately. But once the enemy is identified, there must be retribution for our dead, for the families who will never see them again and for those who just barely escaped.



Harley -

My post was about those who seem to think the coming war is cause for joy. You, and most (if not all) on this thread, obviously, were not in that population.

You have my sincerest sympathy and respect.

Those who think that we will have an easy/clean time of it just don't understand.

and, for the record, the term is 'martial law', and there are 1000's of square miles just in the mid-east...

[Nftnat]

I'm reminded of something FDR said: I have seen war & I hate war. I believe he did, yet he led us into WWII because it had to be done. It is written that there will be wars & rumors of wars as long as this world shall last, & I have seen nothing to cause me to doubt that. It's been said that people these days think war is a game. That has been the case before; spectators went to the first Battle of Manassas (First Bull Run), with picnic baskets, yet! Then there are those who are still willing to sacrifice for peace. That also has been the case before; there was a huge peace movement in the late '30's, early '40's. FDR would've eviscerated the American military if MacArthur hadn't literally lost his lunch over it (hey, that's what happened, right there in the White House). The concept of "peace @ any price" is nothing new; it was a considered plank in the 1864 Democratic Convention. Maybe, I dunno, I mean, maybe we need to find out for ourselves the horror of war to know what the rest of the world is going through, to take steps to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. What should we do, just roll over? Get out of the Middle East? Abandon Israel? Should we abdicate our position as world leader, withdraw within our borders? Become resigned to accept whatever attacks happen in the future because we're not gonna do anything about it? I think it was Jefferson who said that the sword of liberty must be periodically cleansed in blood. Maybe that time has come. I can't say that I have seen war, as the Vietnam whatever-it-was ended in 1973, the year I was born. Nevertheless, I too hate war, & I dread the thought of what awaits us if we go into one. It has not escaped my thoughts that I might well be drafted, sent oversees, perhaps killed in action before this is over. But the thought of what awaits us if we don't... I dunno, I just dunno. Are we saying that there is nothing worth fighting for, that this isn't worth fighting for? Is there anything worth killing for, worth dying for? As to whether this'll be another Nam, I doubt it. We have something we didn't have in Nam; we have Nam from which to learn. We need a clearly defined objective, we need to know who we're fighting, we need to know when we've achieved our goal, & we need a clear exit strategy. I think we'll have all of these things. Maybe I'll be proven wrong; I dunno. I'd go on, but I've depressed myself enough. I'll check back on this thread, but for now I'll concentrate on happier things. Cy'all.

[Craig Marinaro]

This is not 'Nam, nor is it the Gulf "War." Those were the result of our rather egotistical view that we're the Guardian Angel of the Earth, and it's our obligation to sacrifice thousands of our own people to help some country halfway 'round the world solve whatever petty disputes they're having.

As they're fond of saying in the movies, This time it's personal. This is Pearl Harbor times a hundred. And as much as I hate to say it (being the peace-loving hippie that I am), Harl's absolutely right: blood and destruction is about the only language these people understand.

But even if we absolutely *HAVE* to go to war, I wish people would at least *pretend* to be a bit grim about it. War isn't a clash between good and evil, nor is it a stage for people to parade their patriotism, contrary to the typical Hollywood portrayal. It's a struggle for survival, primal and simple. I've never been in the trenches, obviously, but anyone I've ever spoken to or read about has said the same basic thing.

It was probably put best by William Tecumseh Sherman, who should know better than anyone: he notoriously won the Civil War for the Union, by leading a passionate march through the South, annihilating absolutely everyone and everything that was in his path. Years later, he was as sickened by his own actions as everyone else was by them, and gave the famous quote: "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have never fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Nftnat
I'm reminded of something FDR said: I have seen war & I hate war. I believe he did, yet he led us into WWII because it had to be done. It is written that there will be wars & rumors of wars as long as this world shall last, & I have seen nothing to cause me to doubt that. It's been said that people these days think war is a game. That has been the case before; spectators went to the first Battle of Manassas (First Bull Run), with picnic baskets, yet! Then there are those who are still willing to sacrifice for peace. That also has been the case before; there was a huge peace movement in the late '30's, early '40's. FDR would've eviscerated the American military if MacArthur hadn't literally lost his lunch over it (hey, that's what happened, right there in the White House). The concept of "peace @ any price" is nothing new; it was a considered plank in the 1864 Democratic Convention. Maybe, I dunno, I mean, maybe we need to find out for ourselves the horror of war to know what the rest of the world is going through, to take steps to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. What should we do, just roll over? Get out of the Middle East? Abandon Israel? Should we abdicate our position as world leader, withdraw within our borders? Become resigned to accept whatever attacks happen in the future because we're not gonna do anything about it? I think it was Jefferson who said that the sword of liberty must be periodically cleansed in blood. Maybe that time has come. I can't say that I have seen war, as the Vietnam whatever-it-was ended in 1973, the year I was born. Nevertheless, I too hate war, & I dread the thought of what awaits us if we go into one. It has not escaped my thoughts that I might well be drafted, sent oversees, perhaps killed in action before this is over. But the thought of what awaits us if we don't... I dunno, I just dunno. Are we saying that there is nothing worth fighting for, that this isn't worth fighting for? Is there anything worth killing for, worth dying for? As to whether this'll be another Nam, I doubt it. We have something we didn't have in Nam; we have Nam from which to learn. We need a clearly defined objective, we need to know who we're fighting, we need to know when we've achieved our goal, & we need a clear exit strategy. I think we'll have all of these things. Maybe I'll be proven wrong; I dunno. I'd go on, but I've depressed myself enough. I'll check back on this thread, but for now I'll concentrate on happier things. Cy'all.

that pretty much sums it up...

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen


and, for the record, the term is 'martial law', and there are 1000's of square miles just in the mid-east... My bad and so what we did it to Germany

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Craig
This is not 'Nam, nor is it the Gulf "War." Those were the result of our rather egotistical view that we're the Guardian Angel of the Earth...


the best-sounding explanation I've heard for our involvement in 'Nam is 3-fold:

1. Ho Chi Minh (our buddy in WWII) was about to be elected (1956) president of (the then-unified) Vietnam. He was a commie. 1950's US was insanely anti-commie (another ugly chapter in US history). This got the politicians interested.

2. Vietnam was believed to be rich in oil, tin, and rubber - this got the Money interested.

3. The military had a whole new set of 'toys' (the F-4 Phantom was the world's first production supersonic fighter) and wanted a place to test them out. This got the military interested.

no one ever believed it would be a long, nasty, expensive undertaking.

let's hope...

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
My bad and so what we did it to Germany

run the numbers - and include all the Islamic nations.

(that includes, among others, Malaysia)

(and we never got all the nazis, either)

[Harley]

Originally posted by happyheathen


Harley -

My post was about those who seem to think the coming war is cause for joy. You, and most (if not all) on this thread, obviously, were not in that population.

You have my sincerest sympathy and respect.

Those who think that we will have an easy/clean time of it just don't understand.

and, for the record, the term is 'martial law', and there are 1000's of square miles just in the mid-east...

HH,

I have seen some extreme posts made by folks on the boards. Most of those who are making such posts are of the younger variety,as you said, and probably haven't experienced the death of a loved one, even by natural causes, yet. They're just angry and shocked. And being that they've never had to go through anything remotely like this before, don't know how to react. So they react instinctively. We can't expect youth to be able to temper their anger and passion with wisdom. Wisdom is just something not generally acquired by that age. They just don't know any better.

That said, they're still wrong to scream out such things. If everyone feels that it would make a difference towards the general mood of the boards, I'll ask the mods to keep a watch out for such posts and delete them. We should all be going about this in an intelligent and civilized manner, and that doesn't exclude our younger members.

[Dante Bunny]

Remain calm, they will not doing any drafting yet. The people from the U.S. Military Service and the U.S. Navy will fight for us and for everybody in the U.S. of A!!!!!



WIN America!!!!!!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen


run the numbers - and include all the Islamic nations.

(that includes, among others, Malaysia)

(and we never got all the nazis, either) The Allies as in US,Canada,UK,Germany,Russia,and this list goes on and on could hold that much territory long enough for us to get at the terrorist.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
The Allies as in US,Canada,UK,Germany,Russia,and this list goes on and on could hold that much territory long enough for us to get at the terrorist.


Uhhh...

yeah.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen



Uhhh...

yeah. I really don't know if you are agreeing with me or not but anyway run the # of troops you have if you combine all these nations together.

[Sharklady]

The Afghan government has been sheltering Bin Laudin for years now, so if, as seems likely, he's the guilty party, then the Afghan rulers bear a lot of the blame for what happened Tuesday. If declaring war on Afghanistan is what it takes to bring Bin Laudin to justice, then I'd say we're justified.

But I am still hoping - *hoping* - that it won't come to that, because with War, it's an absolute certainty that more innocent people will die- both American soldiers, and ordinary Afghan civilians who never wanted anything to do with terrorists. And I, for one, have had enough of that.

And if it is to be War, let us go into it with our eyes open. All too probably, this will not be quick and neat. All kinds of people will be killed and maimed, our soldiers may end up doing things that'll give them a lifetime of guilt feelings, our country may end up looking much worse coming out then we did going in.

At this point, I'm offering up prayers that the Afghan government will, for once, decide to do the right and sensible thing, and hand Bin Lauden over without a fight.

But I can't say I'm counting on it.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Sharklady
The Afghan government has been sheltering Bin Laudin for years now, so if, as seems likely, he's the guilty party, then the Afghan rulers bear a lot of the blame for what happened Tuesday. If declaring war on Afghanistan is what it takes to bring Bin Laudin to justice, then I'd say we're justified.

But I am still hoping - *hoping* - that it won't come to that, because with War, it's an absolute certainty that more innocent people will die- both American soldiers, and ordinary Afghan civilians who never wanted anything to do with terrorists. And I, for one, have had enough of that.

And if it is to be War, let us go into it with our eyes open. All too probably, this will not be quick and neat. All kinds of people will be killed and maimed, our soldiers may end up doing things that'll give them a lifetime of guilt feelings, our country may end up looking much worse coming out then we did going in.Look right now the Canadain armforces kinda realize this could be WWIII not becouse it is the apocalypse but becouse they have a good feeling they can get China and Russia as well as the rest of the developed world to join in. Thus this will be like ganging out on the bully. And sorry to say some nations probably will go into Afthanistan (if they are to blame) if US goes in or not they were just as much attacked as the US was. I think US would be pretty embarrassed if they were the only ones that didn't go in.


At this point, I'm offering up prayers that the Afghan government will, for once, decide to do the right and sensible thing, and hand Bin Lauden over without a fight.

But I can't say I'm counting on it.
Even if they did that is not enoughm if it is Bin Lauden then the Afghan goverment helped and they must be punished just as much as Bin Lauden.

[Harley]

Well, I really only have two other things to say, then I think I'll push myself back and just read anything more that goes on with the thread. I'm not here to change anyone's personal moral codes, just to state my POV.

I know this is simplifying it, but let's say you go to school and every day a bully goes and punches you in the nose. You're sitting there with a bloody nose and he's standing above you laughing because he knows you're going to go home and do nothing. One day, you finally get together the courage to stand up to him. You look him straight in the eyes and plant one right back on his nose. Chances are that the bully's not going to bother you again. You might not have gained his respect, but you've at least instilled enough fear in him that he'd rather not get clocked in the face again.

In an ideal world, where freedom comes at no cost, peace would be wonderful. But we live in a world where have to fight for both.

[Craig Marinaro]

Harl: I can't really agree with that analogy, because it ignores the biggest point that Sharklady's been emphasizing this whole thread: If we're going to go to war, it's not going to be us going in there and popping whoever's bullying us in the schnozz. We're going to have to risk (and lose) a lot to come out on top.

A better example might be if the kid knows it's going to take a hell of a fight to overcome the bully, but if he can come out on top he won't have to deal with it again. So he takes his swing at the bully, and the bully hits him back, and a huge brawl ensues.....

And hopefully the kid wins the thing, but he comes out with a bloody nose, a broken arm, partial hearing loss, and a mild concussion. But it's all over now. Was it worth it? I guess it's up to the kid to decide that.

I think I've said my piece on this too. I'm not guranteeing I'm not gonna say anything more on the subject ('cause you guys know what a tough time I have keeping my yap shut), but I will try to take my cue from Harl and pull back a bit.

[Harley]

Craig,
This is the last thing on my part. But being that the basic idea behind the analogy was misunderstood, I needed to say something.

Through our continued existance as a species, I'm sure there will be more incidents like this. Groups of people trying to make points with the lives of many.

The idea is that if we do not take action, it will happen again and again and in a much shorter span of time. I'm not arguing that it might not happen again regardless. But by taking action we might be able to stop it for happening again in our lifetimes and, god-willing, perhaps even our childrens'. And mayhaps I'm wrong and it's a pipe dream.

But perhaps, they'll be frightened enough of what we might do to police their own and discourage them from carrying out plans such as these. Because if it isn't being discouraged, it's being allowed. If it's being allowed without repercussions, then it's considered an acceptable form of action. If the parties in question are simply handed over and nothing is done past that, others will rise to take their place without fear of harsh action against them.

If you cannot respect or love me, or even allow me to live my own life unimpeded because I bear no ill will towards you.. then fear me... for it is the only option that has been left.

And that I suppose, exposes my true nature. When I was talking about not being able to change a person's belief structure, I wasn't necessarily talking about SL. I'm a scrapper. I've always been a scrapper and I'll probably always be one. If my back's against a wall, as I feel it is now, I will fight. Fear and survival are powerful motivators.

[Psycho Fox]

As I keep saing I totaly agree with you Harl. Imagine what would have happened if US just did nothing after Pear Harbour becouse we feared we might lose troops.

Never again must this be allowed to happen

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

SAID BY HARLEY: Because if it isn't being discouraged, it's being allowed. If it's being allowed without repercussions, then it's considered an acceptable form of action.

Eeyah....now that statement's enough to be a powerful advocate of war...but in any event, it's not gonna be easy as Craig had pointed out. Bullies aren't going to go down without a fight, and the problem is the 'bully' we're facing isn't a big, strong one as in the anlogy...it's a wimpy one that could make for another Vietnam by dodging and bopping us as it runs around.
The Taliban is gonna drag this thing out as long as it can with us if we go to war, and sadly enough have the albility to do that.

Also, killing this group of terrorists may be a huge detterent, yes, but it doens't squelch the all of the terrorists out there. And they may try another big attack, even in a short amount of time from this one. I am for retaliation, but this is a situation all the war-wanters have to think about, and I thought we could go through a war relativley quick until I read more posts here describing Afghanistan. I still want a quick retaliation, but this may be another Vietnam, which is what I'm afraid of if we go fight...

That's part of the sucky scenes that are being drawn out here...

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon


Eeyah....now that statement's enough to be a powerful advocate of war...but in any event, it's not gonna be easy as Craig had pointed out. Bullies aren't going to go down without a fight, and the problem is the 'bully' we're facing isn't a big, strong one as in the anlogy...it's a wimpy one that could make for another Vietnam by dodging and bopping us as it runs around.
The Taliban is gonna drag this thing out as long as it can with us if we go to war, and sadly enough have the albility to do that.

Also, killing this group of terrorists may be a huge detterent, yes, but it doens't squelch the all of the terrorists out there. And they may try another big attack, even in a short amount of time from this one. I am for retaliation, but this is a situation all the war-wanters have to think about, and I thought we could go through a war relativley quick until I read more posts here describing Afghanistan. I still want a quick retaliation, but this may be another Vietnam, which is what I'm afraid of if we go fight...

That's part of the sucky scenes that are being drawn out here... Our allies are ready and able to help us kick the **** out of anyone and remeber they have a weekness and that is money. Blood Dimonds is their life blood we boycott them they will starve.

[Colin]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Our allies are ready and able to help us kick the **** out of anyone and remeber they have a weekness and that is money. Blood Dimonds is their life blood we boycott them they will starve.

Are they? I saw on the news that countries like Russia and some of the European Nations don't want to go to war... they'd support the cause, but would not send in troops... doesn't sound like they are (as you put it) "ready and able to help us kick the [expletive deleted] out of anyone" I know countries like England and to an extent Canada and maybe France are willing to help...but how far will that land us?

It's one thing to have our allies fighting with us... it's another thing to have them standing on the sidelines saying "Go Team!"


The news is a powerful informative medium... perhaps if you watched the news more carefully you might have caught this statement, as it has been said often...

[Psycho Fox]

They don't want to but odds are they will go in anyway from reports from the RCMP these guys hate the whole developed world and will be willing attack China and Russia just like they did us so they really have no choice their security is at stake.

[Psycho Fox]

Oh yes and Russia has offered Intelegence and use of its bases, land and airways and the only reason why it does not offer millitary support is it is a bankrupt natation. But then again if War can get them out of their mess then I think Russia would jump on board fully.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

That's very good to hear...but then again, I wonder if they were jumping in for economic reasons they remember it could break as well as re-make thier economy as well. Russia, if it joins, is gonna be the middleman between the troops if war breaks out. I wonder if they realize that....


SAID BY PSYCHO FOX: But then again if War can get them out of their mess then I think Russia would jump on board fully.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon
That's very good to hear...but then again, I wonder if they were jumping in for economic reasons they remember it could break as well as re-make thier economy as well. Russia, if it joins, is gonna be the middleman between the troops if war breaks out. I wonder if they realize that....Well yhea but they are already bankrupt so what do they have to lose? And I would like to point out I was shocked when none of the US channels carried the live feed from the UN a few days ago. Anyway from what I saw then there was alot of talk about forming a Alliance to fight this terrorism including tring to sign on nations like Cuba,China and North Korea

[Harley]

Will,
Just so you're aware, I appreciate the support, but I don't want to be pro-war. I'm not gung-ho about this. It's just a sad realization I've come to. We've reached the last course of action. I believe it has to be done.

The entire region is mostly mountainous. The Soviet Union tried for ten years, unsuccessfully, to overtake it and were forced to withdraw. No matter how many allies we have, there will be a good deal of death. Should it come to pass, it will be difficult and bloody at the least. I am by no means rejoicing.

There is no glory or honor in this, just survival.

[Harley]

On a lighter note, Fluffy, the Killer Cat of Death and Destruction and Master of all She Surveys II, says, "Hi!". She's currently sitting on my lap and I had to stop her from typing this herself. Oh, she was distracted by a shiny thing. Ooh, shiny.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Harley
Will,
Just so you're aware, I appreciate the support, but I don't want to be pro-war. I'm not gung-ho about this. It's just a sad realization I've come to. We've reached the last course of action. I believe it has to be done. I know your are don't want to be pro-war hell till tuesday I would have been the perfect hippie. But I have come to realization that we are already at war it is like someone throwen the first punch then wondering if you should fight when really you aready are fighting.


The entire region is mostly mountainous. The Soviet Union tried for ten years, unsuccessfully, to overtake it and were forced to withdraw. No matter how many allies we have, there will be a good deal of death. Should it come to pass, it will be difficult and bloody at the least. I am by no means rejoicing.True but Canadain armforces have already thought up a trick to make their stinger missiles useless which could take them by supprise plus they say they have thought up a cunning plan to divide up their forces. While us Canadains are soft most of the time when it comes to fighting we hold our own and then some. We were the Northen flank during D-Day and saw very heavy action.

Oh and say hi to Fluffy, the Killer Cat of Death and Destruction and Master of all She Surveys II for me

[Sharklady]

In regard to all predictions about how a war with Afghanistan would go, I feel compelled to drop a quote from Dwight Eisenhower:

"Every war will astonish you."