Just watched Batman Returns again...

[DR.MID-NITE]

I have not watched either of the first 2 Batman movies in a few years. The other day, Batman Returns came on. So I watched it. The first 2 movies were so much better than the 3rd and 4th movies. Their was no neon to be found. And althought, their was humor, it wasn't campy. I can only hope that if they do make the rumored Batman/Superman movie. They keep Schumaker away. And do it the right way.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by DR.MID-NITE
The first 2 movies were so much better than the 3rd and 4th movies. Their was no neon to be found. And althought, their was humor, it wasn't campy. I can only hope that if they do make the rumored Batman/Superman movie. They keep Schumaker away. And do it the right way.

I honestly don't feel Batman Forever is all that bad. Certainly it's not great, but there actually was a lot that was done well. A lot of criticisms that have been made are well-founded, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the good aspects, of which there were many. Now Batman and Robin....I understand the harsh attacks made on it, as there seemed to be no redeeming qualities.

[Bird Boy]

the first two are definetly the best. While a thing or two in BR doesn't go well with me, I still like it. While Batman Forever definitely wasn't near the quality of Batman or BatmanReturns, it was still good.

I refuse to even put "batman and robin" in my top batman movies

-BB

[Winkwink]

I like Batman Returns ALOT, better than the first...It's so...cozy in a way the first on isn't...better villains...I love that flick...one of my all time faves I must admit..

[Tim Drake]

Batman Forever was still REAL bad. Come on. Harvey Dent was Black in the first movie now's he white!! And I lost so much respect for Tommy Lee Jones. He's great in most of his movies. He can do semi-serious comic book movie fiction like Men in Black. Why did he have to be such a lousy Two-Face??!?? As for Jim Carrey I expected as much and wasn't as much upset.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Tim Drake
And I lost so much respect for Tommy Lee Jones. He's great in most of his movies. He can do semi-serious comic book movie fiction like Men in Black. Why did he have to be such a lousy Two-Face??!?? As for Jim Carrey I expected as much and wasn't as much upset.

I don't think that's fair. Would a serious interpretation of Two-Face have fit in with the rest of the movie? Of course not. Schumacher and whoever the writer was were obviously not interested in telling a serious, depth-filled story. You can't blame Jones for that. He was having fun with the role which was really all he could do given the lack of seriousness that surrounded the project. And Dent being black in the first one and white in the third has nothing to do with the story itself, but with casting.

As for Batman Forever being "REAL bad", c'mon. Again, I think you're completely overlooking all that was good with the movie. It goes both ways. There's good and bad. You can't focus only on the bad and use that as reasoning to call the movie bad. As I've admitted, there are negative aspects to BF. But nobody points out the good parts, which I'm going to try to do now.

** Batman's disappearing act when talking to Chase early in the film. That's classic Batman. Maybe a minor point, but enjoyable to see

** Batman using the hearing aid to escape the vault. Batman's always been a detective and it was good to see reference to his thinking ability. No brute force or explosives from the utility belt, but rather a thinking Batman.

** Continued reference to the number 2 in scenes with Two-Face. The performance might have been Joker-like, but we saw the two references throughout the film.

** Seeing the brief tv-footage of Dent getting splashed with the acid in the court room. I thought that was pretty cool.

** That underground transport Bruce used to get from WayneTech to the Batcave. It was very reminscent of a similar transport that the Voltron force used to get to their Lions. Perhaps not very "Batmany" but I liked it. Visually it was very nice.

** Humor. A lot of people have criticised the humor, but it was understated. What I liked was the straightfaced, deadpan manner in which Batman delivered several lines: "The Batsignal is not a beeper" or "I'll get drive through." I liked them. I also thought the Alfred-Bruce exchange about the Batmobile being taken by Dick was done well. "He boosted the jag?" "No, sir, the other car."

** Fear. This wasn't at all a dark movie, but there was one scene that did an excellent job of showing the fear Batman creates without resorting to needless violence. Dick finds himself facing, seemingly, hundreds of gang members after rescuing the girl. Then they all notice Batman high above, spreading his cape. The odds are overwhelmingly against Batman, but what do the gang members do? They run. Great moment.

** Shortly after the above scene, a furious Dick attacks Batman, in a rage because Bruce didn't give himself up to Two-Face at the circus. Batman's response: "If Bruce Wayne could have given his life for your parents, he would have." He didn't say "If I could have.." he said "If Bruce Wayne could have.." I loved seeing that distinction between Batman and Bruce. When the mask comes on, he's Batman, not Bruce. Another great moment.

** In the Batcave later, Dick insists on joining Batman. He wants to kill Two-Face. Bruce says something to this effect: "Then it will go like this. You'll kill Two-Face, but the pain won't go away. You need another face, and then another. Soon you realize your whole life is about revenge." When Bruce said this, you could feel the passion. The great thing is that this actually ties back to the first film. Bruce has been where Dick wants be. Bruce discovered Joker killed his parents and wanted him dead. And he did just that, kill Joker. But it didn't change a thing. There not just words, because Bruce has experienced them. This was one of the highlights for me.

** Batman's fluid movements. The batsuit seemed very stiff in the first two movies. Not here, which greatly benefitted the fight scenes and other movements. Particularly nice was the moment when Batman leapt off the building after Two-Face. The way the camera followed his descent, and the opening of Batman's cape was perfect.

** The reference to Bruce's constant nightmares was great also. The scene when Bruce was in Chase's office, holding some strange artifact and asking what it was. She said something about them being for those with nightmares or some kind of haunting fear. When she asked if he needed one, his quick response: "No, of course not. Why would I?" But the expression on Bruce's face was perfect.

** Bruce solving the riddles and Alfred noting that Bruce "really is quite keen." Another nice reference to Wayne's deductive abilities.

** At the beginning when Batman smashes the helicopter window, trying to get to Face. He reaches out his hand, saying "Harvey, you need help." I liked that a lot. It's a very, very brief reference to the friendship between Bruce and Dent, but it's there and I liked it. Face isn't just another villain. He's Harvey Dent, Bruce's friend and someone that does need help.

** Dick Grayson using his acrobatic skills and athleticism to reach the Batcave entrance. Proof of Grayson physically being up to the challenge of working with Batman (unlike the ridiculous notion of Barbara joining them in B&R. No basis whatsoever for her to be up to it.)

And there are others. I'm not trying to speak for everybody. I know many will disagree with several of the points I've mentioned. But I would hope others would make some sense or at least that I've demonstrated that there are good points to pick out. Overall, I just found Batman Forever enjoyable to watch with many points that were true to Batman. It's not the epic, depth-filled work we had all hoped for, but it did have some good. Am I completely wrong about that?

[Bird Boy]

I agree with everythign you said DarkAngel. I loved all of those points in the movie. Batman Forever was not a bad movie. Batman and Robin was just aweful. The script and the director both must've thought the "humor" they put in BF were great, and they wanted to do it again, and they did it too much, making it the worst film to ever grace the Bat-Cave.

Though, Batman & Robin gave the only reference to Superman thus far in a Batman movie.

-BB

[Russkafin]

Batman Forever did have an indirect reference to Superman, when Bruce comments that the circus must be "halfway to Metropolis by now." I thought that was neat, especially when Lois and Clark, which was on TV at this time, responded with a reference to Gotham City in the third season opening episode.

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by Russkafin
Batman Forever did have an indirect reference to Superman, when Bruce comments that the circus must be "halfway to Metropolis by now." I thought that was neat, especially when Lois and Clark, which was on TV at this time, responded with a reference to Gotham City in the third season opening episode.

Oh yeah! I didn't see that Lois and Clark episode...but I do remember that reference in BF....I stand corrected..thank you Russkafin! :)

-BB

[NewMaxFranklin]

It's eerie how close DarkAngels points were to what I said in an arguement to a freind. Great points.

I didn't like Jones' portrayal of Two/Face either. I thought we should have seen more of a Darth Vader style "inner conflict." But the performances can only be as good as the script. Here's where it think the Director's incompetence is glairing. If you've read the original "Forever" script, you know that it's quite good at times.

In the early scene where we're introduced to Two/Face we can clearly see two personalities at work. And the suspence of what Two/Face's ugly half of the face looks like is built up well.

Face is not sure weather to kill the security guard or not. He flips the coin. It's good heads up. He becomes the most caring criminal in the world. A complete humanitarian. He makes the hostige comfortable offers him some food and drink. Then he asks him about his family. Soon, he realizes he's probably been traumatized by all this and offer him a share of the loot.

One of his men speaks up; "Face, you're not gonna pay him!?" Face is "Big Bad Harv" in the next instant, holding his insubordiante lacky up against the wall. "THIS MAN HAS A FAMILY TO SUPPORT!!! Etc." Great stuff.

The Riddler was handeled Ok in the finished film. Carrey's portrayel of Nigma as a socially banrupt, introverted, genius who used The Riddler persona much like Stanley uses "the Mask" was fitting. As was his later "Wayne-like" Nigma.

I've written about why Kilmer's Batman is my favorite and how Forever is my favorite batman film before, so I won't get into that again.

[Shriek]

I can honestly watch the first 3 Batman movies with no problem at all. It all works out good for me.

[DisneyBoy]

I LOVED Batman Returns! Michelle Pfiffer made the purrfect Catwoman and though some of the lines were funny, the film focused on entense emotions, passion, hatred and darkness. I was watching it a few weeks ago and I noticed a great line when Bruce and Selina are dancing. He asks her "No hard feelings" and she whispers "Semi-Hard":D Can I write that here???:D

[Failure]

Does anybody think Jim Carrey would've made a better Joker, than a Riddler? His outlandishness is more up Joker's alley, while I always thought of Riddler as more of a composed, calm, "higher-classed" type.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I dunno...I thought Batman Returns was rather...ponderous. Without the detective aspect in the forefront, as a film, it just kinda meandered. It's definitely a Burton movie, though, as it has that quasi-beautiful ghoulish visual style which is one of his best trademarks. Other than that, and Pfeiffer at her peak, I couldn't get into it.

[D-Mono]

Personally, I like all 4 Bat-Movies (shock horror! ;)), but I do think some roles were a tad misplaced. While I loved Carrey's performance, I feel he would have made a better Creeper, or maybe even a Joker (I'm not that big a fan of Nicholson's). The Riddler is meant to be a cold, cunning and aloof character - not an over-the-top, campy-type. Actually, Alex from A Clockwork Orange reminds me a bit of the Riddler (and the TNBA design is surely based upon his appearance).
As far as the fourth film is concerned, I think Ivy was played well by Thurman, but Arnie was too big to be Freeze, and Bane was reduced to being a moronic plant-man. While Batman is great all dark and gothic, I did love the light-hearted approach to the latter films. If Gotham City was all that dark, with no light in it at all, I think the people would move out.
Hey, did anyone else hear the rumours a few years ago that John Travolta was to play the Scarecrow and Madonna was to play Harley Quinn? That would have been, um, interesting.
D-Mono.