Fresh Question #51: Adult-Oriented Animation on American Television

[Mynd Hed]

Well, it's been quite a day since the WBC has had a Fresh Question a la the Entertainment Board, but I've decided to take it upon myself to try and restart the old jalopy. (-: We'll see how it goes. I figure I'll do a "test run" of three or four questions over the next few months and then see if anyone feels like it is something worth continuing.

By the way, I discussed the idea with some of your other Friendly Neighborhood Mods, and they said that one of the biggest hassles for the last few folks who've tried to keep a Fresh Question running on the WBC has been coming up with a new question every few weeks. With that in mind, if anyone has any great ideas for future Fresh Questions, please feel free to PM me. If I use your idea, I will be sure to give you credit.

That said, here's today's Fresh Question:

How should adult-oriented animation on American television be handled? How much censorship, warnings, etc. are warranted, and how much is too much? Is it justifiable to censor a series so that it can be shown at all, or is it better for another, tamer show to be aired and the more explicit one left completely unaired?

Let the discussion begin!

[Dee]

They should place it approperiately on TV. I'm talking decent time slots.

If they need to, they can move some stuff around and put it on later because parents still do send kids to bed by a particular time... and even more are too tired to stay up. I know kids are different these days opposed to what we were like 15 years ago... but it's a simple step to head in the right direction with adult oriented animation.

Censorship sucks but if they have to, Id rather see a tamer show than nothing at all unless the entire show is based upon being something for adults. Then its stupid and pointless. I guess it's a case by case thing.

Family Guy got to be REAL adult oriented and the censors took hold, even changing Stewie's singing lines in the opening and It bugged me. If they have a problem with that show, they can air it later at nite.

Warnings should also be aired. I like the full screen warnings because if a parent that takes measures to protect their kids IS watching, then they can see the notice and take warning of it.

an alternative which may be cool technology in the future... would play on some digital TV's ability to pause live shows. Maybe they can make something that has a "Censor button" where you activate it and the show airs, but censored with an optional small icon in the corner to indicate something had been censored. Adults alone could unactivate and get the unsensored version when their kids arent watching. Kinda nicer than that V Chip crap that totally prevents viewing. It would also give an option to animators so their show isnt totally lost on everyone.

[Beat]

Treat it like any normal TV show with Adult content. If "Cowboy Bebop" was live action, it would win Emmy's, get a great time spot, and be the subject of several morning talk shows. But it's animated, which makes it crap in the viewers eyes.

EDIT- This isn't a "bash everything" idea. Adult content on animated programs is incredibly restricted compared to live action. They should loosen those restrictions.

[Jeff Harris]

Originally posted by Mynd Hed
How should adult-oriented animation on American television be handled? How much censorship, warnings, etc. are warranted, and how much is too much? Is it justifiable to censor a series so that it can be shown at all, or is it better for another, tamer show to be aired and the more explicit one left completely unaired?
Adult-oriented animation on American television should be handled the same way as adult-oriented live-action on American television.

- Disclaimers before the episodes begin and before the show resumes after commercial breaks, ala The Shield.

- If airing in a Safe Harbor timeslot (between 10 PM and 6 AM), know your limitations. The FCC has basically given broadcasters a timeslot period that you can go all out, but not many outlets have taken advantage of that and will not take advantage of that for fear of boycotts. Cable networks also follow the Safe Harbor mandate and adhere to those rules in their own broadcasting practices.

Adult animation would definitely revolutionize the television industry in this country if it got off its "immature juvenille comedy" kick many prime-time animated shows fall victim to. That's why there's so much heat against adult-animation in this country, and why it's always so censored. I don't think censorship is acceptable, but I think they need know their limits.

If there was an American-made animated equivalent to Cowboy Bebop done properly (and not falling prey to pointless profanity and obligatory nudity like Spawn), then people wouldn't be so anti-adult animation in this country. We need a good, smart animated drama with great stories, well-done animation, and outstanding voice artists to make adult animation appreciated.

[Mynd Hed]

If there was an American-made animated equivalent to Cowboy Bebop done properly (and not falling prey to pointless profanity and obligatory nudity like Spawn), then people wouldn't be so anti-adult animation in this country. We need a good, smart animated drama with great stories, well-done animation, and outstanding voice artists to make adult animation appreciated.

I wouldn't call the profanity in Spawn "pointless." Spawn featured characters such as New York cops, gangsters, drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps... should we really expect such people to talk like Shirley Temple? The profanity did have a "point," which was verisimilitude.
However, as good a show as Spawn was, it can't match up to Cowboy Bebop either in dramatic quality or accessibility to the common man. Your average American, if you can convince him to sit down and watch Bebop, will probably enjoy it. You can't say the same about Spawn. So I agree with you that America could really use a high-quality serious adult-oriented animated drama. (America already has a high-quality adult-oriented animated comedy in the form of the Simpsons, and that did a lot of good for animation.)

[Kaiser0120]

If I'm correct, Spawn is on Japan Toonami. Might be another Spawn cartoon though. I dunno. Were there ever 2 Spawn cartoons? I think I've heard of a second one.

I dunno. ^.^;

[Jeff Harris]

Originally posted by Mynd Hed
I wouldn't call the profanity in Spawn "pointless." Spawn featured characters such as New York cops, gangsters, drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps... should we really expect such people to talk like Shirley Temple? The profanity did have a "point," which was verisimilitude.Alright, I can except that, though the mobsters of The Sopranos don't curse as much as Tony Twist and the NYPD on Spawn.

Plus, in the comics, they didn't need excessive profanity to tell the story. The first season was chock full of profanity, but the last two season had much limited cursing in it and actually became more story-driven from the end of the first season to the end of the series. From what I read back when the show premiered in '97, the only reason why there was that much cursing in Spawn is because Todd simply wanted to say the queen mother of dirty words, the "eff" dash dash dash.

Oh, and Kaiser, the Spawn currently seen on Toonami in Japan IS the same series we saw on HBO.

[Kaiser0120]

O.O

Well, then, holy crap. Japanese Toonami is playing Spawn from HBO.

Heh...

[Space Cadet]

Originally posted by Delia97

Family Guy got to be REAL adult oriented and the censors took hold, even changing Stewie's singing lines in the opening and It bugged me. If they have a problem with that show, they can air it later at nite.



What did they change the lines to?

[Zechs]

If it's no regulay T.V where children might be able to see it then it should be censored. But if it's on a network you have to pay to get like showtime or HBO then it should be totaly uncut. I mean if they can show freaky porn late at night why not uncut anime.

[Sandro]

Adult-oriented animation on American television should be handled the same way as adult-oriented live-action on American television.

- Disclaimers before the episodes begin and before the show resumes after commercial breaks, ala The Shield.

- If airing in a Safe Harbor timeslot (between 10 PM and 6 AM), know your limitations. The FCC has basically given broadcasters a timeslot period that you can go all out, but not many outlets have taken advantage of that and will not take advantage of that for fear of boycotts. Cable networks also follow the Safe Harbor mandate and adhere to those rules in their own broadcasting practices.

I couldn't agree with this more. Night time belongs to the adult crowd. End of story.

[RayChuang]

I believe it is possible to have animation aimed at older viewers on American TV.

The way to do it is simple: put it on a premium service cable/DBS channel. With the proliferation of digital cable and DBS systems there is now room to actually implement such a channel.

In fact, if I were AOL Time Warner I'd start negotiating now with the various Japanese animation companies to get US broadcast rights then put most uncut Japanese anime on this channel (in both dubbed and subtitled forms). Of course, blatantly hentail (e.g., adult) animation is obvious out, but everything else can be shown on this premium channel.

Mind you, they'll have to compete against the anime channel project that ADV Films is working on now.

After all, HBO has shown AOLTW that you can have pretty much uncensored programming that does extremely well in terms of viewership.

[DarthNuriko]

Treat it like any normal TV show with Adult content.I agree. Shows too risque for the younger viewer should be pushed later, just like live-action shows. Just like when an ep of CSI deals with more graphic/ possibly offensive plot lines advise the viewer, so should any adult animated show.

[Patchwork]

Originally posted by Beatdigga
Treat it like any normal TV show with Adult content. If "Cowboy Bebop" was live action, it would win Emmy's, get a great time spot, and be the subject of several morning talk shows. But it's animated, which makes it crap in the viewers eyes.

I agree. Besides, putting warnings all over the place will just make younger viewers watch it even more.

[Anthonynotes]

I'd go along with treating it like a similar live-action adult comedy/drama, instead of segregating it...

Recall hearing that there's some adult-oriented cartoon that airs after "Queer as Folk" on Showtime called "Queer Duck" (with IIRC Maurice LaMarche doing a voice for it), about, well, what the title says. Which (along with HBO's Spawn) would be the only shows I can think of that're animated for adults and air on premium channels (with, I presume, the usual disclaimers)...


-B.

[Mynd Hed]

If it's no regulay T.V where children might be able to see it then it should be censored. But if it's on a network you have to pay to get like showtime or HBO then it should be totaly uncut. I mean if they can show freaky porn late at night why not uncut anime.

I agree with you that premium channels like Showtime and HBO are great places for uncensored animation, and indeed HBO used to show the Spawn animated series (which was very explicit in terms of violence, sexuality, and language and very mature in the themes involved) with some success.
However, I'm not sure if I agree with your logic that animation shown where children "might" be able to see it should be censored. First, if a household subscribes to a premium channel, the children in that household will be able to watch it unless they are supervised by their parents, just like a "normal" television channel. So it doesn't seem logical to me that premium channels should be treated differently than basic cable and broadcast channels.
Second, if we're going to censor everything that children "might" see, then should we start censoring the entire Internet? Should news services on the Internet and televsion be unable to portray events that people might not want children to see, because children "might" see it?
I think that a warning, similar to what Cartoon Network has before their Adult Swim programming, is the way to go. (Of course, I think that most of the programming in Adult Swim is fine for children and doesn't warrant the strength of their warning, but that's another topic.) I don't think censorship is the answer. I think that it's better to inform the viewer as to what sort of content they're about to watch and then leave it up to them (or, in the case of children, their parents) to make an informed decision as to whether or not that content is appropriate for them to view. That puts the burden of decision on the viewers and the parents, instead of the network or the BS&P deciding FOR the viewer what is and is not appropriate.

[Antiyonder]

Originally posted by Mynd Hed
I think that a warning, similar to what Cartoon Network has before their Adult Swim programming, is the way to go.
Probably wouldn't do much good.
Two situations I read should tell you what I mean:

1. A mom bought her kids the DVD Batman Beyond Return Of The Joker Uncut. She posted a negative review stating that it was wrong for the writers to subject a child to the contents in the film. Hello, it's PG-13 and was labeled The Original Uncut Version.

2. Another mom bought her girl an R Rated movie without checking the rating. She made (I think) a petiton to ban it. I don't prefer R rated movies that much either, but I wouldn't blow it for everyone else.

[Mynd Hed]

Probably wouldn't do much good.
Two situations I read should tell you what I mean:

1. A mom bought her kids the DVD Batman Beyond Return Of The Joker Uncut. She posted a negative review stating that it was wrong for the writers to subject a child to the contents in the film. Hello, it's PG-13 and was labeled The Original Uncut Version.

2. Another mom bought her girl an R Rated movie without checking the rating. She made (I think) a petiton to ban it. I don't prefer R rated movies that much either, but I wouldn't blow it for everyone else.

Those are isolated incidents that don't reflect the general state of things. Those people are ignorant and lazy and deserve everything they get; in a perfect world, all companies would ignore these people instead of catering to them. (And in reality, to a large extent most of them do.)
The fact of the matter is, some people are going to be displeased no matter what you do for them, but that's no reason to ruin everything for the vast majority of people who are intelligent and rational.
If you have an idea for how to handle adult material that would please both the sorts of people in the example above AND would also please the legions of fans who bought and enjoyed the RotJ Uncut DVD and who watch and enjoy various R-rated movies, I'd love to hear it. But if we have to choose which of those two groups to please (the people described above or the fans), I think you know which group I would choose. (-:

[Kaiser0120]

The problem with mature entertainment/productions is that Parents use Television, DVDs, VHS and so on as a babysitter for their children. In a world where everything has become confusing and busy parents become irresponisble with their most important duty: Parent their children. Some parents don't allow their children to watch mature programs, play mature videogames, read mature magazines. Good for them, IF they're smart and understanding about it.

But parents have now become dependent on Television to teach their children the basics, to entertain them, keep their children out of trouble. When you place a medium such as Television as the babysitter of your children you HAVE to keep tighter tabs on things, no go blaming the media for not taking YOUR responisbility. It's digusting to see these idiots go on the news and say something along the lines of, 'I was appalled at what I saw. I can't believe they expose such things to children.' THEY exposed Television to their OWN children. It was THEIR fault for not making sure their children couldn't get into things that weren't appropriate for them. Most shows now have ratings in the upper left hand corner of the screen to warn parents what the show is rated, or labels of ratings on movies and so on. If they ignore these things it is THEIR fault, not the network, or the distributor.

I have alot mor to say, but I'm sure no one really wants me anymore on my soap box.

[Mynd Hed]

I have alot mor to say, but I'm sure no one really wants me anymore on my soap box.

Not at all, that's all that topics like this are for, is a soap box. I agree with most of the points you made. But now that we've identified the problem, what's the solution?

I think voluntary ratings systems and warnings such as are in place now are a good place to start, as they inform the viewer of the sort of content they're going to be viewing so that they can decide whether they wish to view it or not, WITHOUT censoring anyone's artistic vision. Of course, I think that the ratings system as it exists right now is a little skewed, especially with the way it deals with sexuality (Horrible violence is okay, but two happily married people having consensual sex isn't? What?) but that's a minor nitpick, not an inherent problem in the system per se.

I also think that airing adult-oriented programming later at night makes plenty of sense, not only from the standpoint of keeping it away from kids but also from the standpoint of smart marketing. However, I do feel that airing adult-oriented programming later at night should be a voluntary action on the part of the network, NOT enforced by an outside agency such as the FCC or the BS&P.

Any other thoughts? Not only about how to deal with adult-oriented programming, but also on the matter of how to get people to USE the TV ratings system and monitor what their kids watch. After all, things like the ratings system and the V chip don't work if people don't use them, and even then they're no substitute for plain old common sense and good parenting.

[Stokesmon]

I think that depending on the type of anime or whatever is shown on tv. As you can see with the Adult Swim and some of the other animated shows like South Park, there are people watching shows like these but in the long run, it all comes down to the government!

[Drachentöter]

I see censorship as unnecessary in the following situations:

1) The show is airing on a premium channel like HBO

2) The show is airing after primetime or if you really want to push it, midnight

Overall, I think it's pretty stupid how some parents just can't face facts and overreact when their children are "forced" to sit through programs "overflowing with" profanity, violence, and sexuallity. These people are lazy hypocrites who don't bother to look at a rating or spend time with their child before they plop them in front of a TV.

TV shows didn't come up with the idea of violence and they don't cause nearly as much as some people claim. TV shows didn't just create sexuallity, it was already there. Television has to remain current and contemporary in order to draw in viewers. It's not going to revert to 60's censorship when the consumer wants shows to be realistic. Producers of live-action shows figured it out and producers of animated shows are just starting to.

It's not that TV Y7 cartoons are bad. It's just that they don't apply to our real world. We want to see real-life or familiar situations portrayed in animation. If the characters in Cowboy Bebop or other Adult Swim cartoons began talking like the fighters in Dragonball Z or He-Man, the quality of the shows would plummet. Maturity is a good thing in animation.

So what can be done to shield it from those who aren't ready for it? As long as animation appeals primarily to kids, the situation will be tough. Many adults are quick to judge and many children are easily fooled into thinking a program is for them. But, really, is the latter such a bad thing? No one is asking for shock-value shows like South Park or any anime hentai to air earlier. But shows that are a bit more subtle in their approach and rich in plot do deserve to be placed at better hours. South Park airs at 10pm, why can't Inuyasha?

My point is, kids are too shielded. Which leads for a craving of "naughty things" like extreme violence, strong sexual content, and blunt profanity. Kids just love it. Which leads to wrestling shows and South Park. I'm not saying South Park, or shows like it (Family Guy), are bad overall, they're just bad for kids. The point of them is to amaze the impressionable with just what they'll get away with. I think they're funny, but the soccer mom doesn't. This leads to a bad reputation for any cartoon with a rating over TVPG.

Anyway, before I get any more off-topic, I say:

Start more mature shows at 10pm for basic cable channels like Cartoon Network. Put a warning before each show, but customize it for the program, not the whole block. For example, the Adult Swim warnings make it seem like all the shows are chock-full of guts, porn, and potty-mouths. A more detailed, specific warning would better inform the viewer.

If a parent doesn't want their kid watching it, I suggest they find a way to block the channel at certain times and start engaging with the kid in an activity they'll both enjoy. And don't make such a huge fuss about it, as that only makes the show more appealing. Just say, "that's a stupid show to watch" and turn it off.

[Mynd Hed]

see censorship as unnecessary in the following situations:

1) The show is airing on a premium channel like HBO

2) The show is airing after primetime or if you really want to push it, midnight

Why does airing on a premium channel make a difference to you? This has always puzzled me. If a household subscribes to a premium channel, children in that household can access that channel just as easily as any other, so why should there be two different standards for premium channels and basic cable? Now, pay-per-view I can see as being different, or similar new on-demand systems like the new Anime Channel will be airing on where you actually have to request individual programs.

[Drachentöter]

Originally posted by Mynd Hed
Why does airing on a premium channel make a difference to you? This has always puzzled me. If a household subscribes to a premium channel, children in that household can access that channel just as easily as any other, so why should there be two different standards for premium channels and basic cable? Now, pay-per-view I can see as being different, or similar new on-demand systems like the new Anime Channel will be airing on where you actually have to request individual programs.

Because the person ordering the channel should know what he/she is ordering and should be aware of the content of the programs on the channel. My family didn't order cable channels, we ordered cable packages which means we have no control over what channels are in the packages. Or at least we haven't asked to block them.

When you pay for a channel, that channel can put just about anything it wants on since it doesn't rely on sponsors for its monetary support. People pay for a channel for the programs. With all the raves going on for Sex and the City and the Sopranos on HBO, I doubt viewers aren't aware of the type of content on the Home Box Office. And even if they were shocked, they could always cancel their subscription.