When will Paramount wake up(re:all Trek)?...

[DR.MID-NITE]

With Enterprise losing 40% of its viewers from last year and Nemesis getting negative reviews. You have to wonder when Paramount will wake up and get rid of Berman & Braga? They seem to be doing something that I thought would never happen...They are getting the serious Trek fans apathetic about both the show and the movies. Maybe, it is time to bring in someone new to run the franchise before it is beyond repair.

[Jedigreedo]

Yes, Berman and Braga need to be retired. For one they definitely need to get some Trek people in there like Leonard Nimoy and Jonathon Frakes along with the better people who worked with Gene, and of course Majel. I'm not sure how much she's done on the shows but considering the difference between TOS, TNG and DS9 to VOY and ENT, there's definitely something there that was lost.

If Berman and Braga remain in control, then Star Trek will definitely warp down the drain.

[Marc]

Well if we're to believe any of the rumors, there may be some changes post-Nemesis, once we find out exactly what's going to happen to the Next Gen crew (more movies/new TV series?). I seem to remember Berman stated that he'd like to see some "new blood" take over on Enterprise. Ron Moore's busy with his BattleStar Galactica remake, but I'd like to see him do some more Trek stories. And absolutley try to get Frakes to write/direct a few episodes.

But to honest, I think Paramount should consider giving Star Trek a rest for a few years. The franchise has been popular for almost four decades, but I think some time off would allow for new ideas to take shape, and then a new series can appear.

- Cap

[James]

Originally posted by Jedigreedo
Yes, Berman and Braga need to be retired. For one they definitely need to get some Trek people in there like Leonard Nimoy and Jonathon Frakes along with the better people who worked with Gene, and of course Majel. I'm not sure how much she's done on the shows but considering the difference between TOS, TNG and DS9 to VOY and ENT, there's definitely something there that was lost.

If Berman and Braga remain in control, then Star Trek will definitely warp down the drain.

I couldn't agree more, I think the recent success in Trek is more to do with the name rather than the efforts of Berman and Braga who like their temporal rift stories just seem to be stuck in the same characters, same stories and same mistakes - simply treadmilling. The franchise needs to take risks and grow again in a way I don't think it really has since TNG. Even DS9, darker as it was, felt as if it could have done so much more if the 'leash' was slackened.

New blood. Definately.

[zarius]

Absoultly correct, the Trek Franchise is suffering from a strong case of over-exposure, it needs a rest or risk being put down.

look at what happened to Dr. Who after the BBC forced it to take a break through cancelation

IT IS HUGE NOW, Audio sotries, books, magazines, all of which are really iinovating and are in no danger of growing stale

Trek books have become boring, unproductive, and lazy, which Trek book has been worth a DECENT look latly?

I have found Power Rnagers far more entertaining than Enterprise

I have found Mutant X far more entertaining than Enterprise

I have found HHH far more entertaining than Enterprise

And fron what you've siad , I'll find the UK release of Hey Arnold: The Movie more satisfying than the end of Nemesis .

Which would you pick for a better sequence

Data's "Wrath of Khan rip-off Death Scene"?

or Arnold and Helga necking?

COme on, don't be shy... :D

[JohnCrichton]

Starfleet Academy

Simple math here.... do Starfleet Academy with some of teh TNG characters as teachers and headmasters.

That'll get fans back and generate new ones.

Enterprise is just so.... retro. Move forward, not backward to prequels. Otherwise we already know what's going to happen.

Why won't they listen to me.. :(

[Joker85]

Berman and Braga have long overstayed their welcome. Enterprise is seriously starting to suck...I'm pissed that they cut over an hour out of Nemesis for the theatrical release. The story, despite what they say...is not original in any shape or form. And I agree, Trek needs about a five year break. Or maybe just new leaders. I like the suggestion to bring in Jonathan Frakes. That would definitely be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, if Rick Berman ever does leave, Braga will stay behind and take over.

[Anthonynotes]

I haven't liked "Voyager" or "Enterprise", so I've mostly just been watching the reruns of the prior "Trek" series---at least until most of them went to cable (which I don't have)...

Would rather see new blood behind "Trek" myself, and/or giving the whole "Trek franchise" a bit of a rest for a few years...

-B.

[William C. Maune]

[indent]Since when is Nemesis getting bad reviews?

[James]

Originally posted by JohnCrichton
Starfleet Academy

Simple math here.... do Starfleet Academy with some of teh TNG characters as teachers and headmasters.

That'll get fans back and generate new ones.

Enterprise is just so.... retro. Move forward, not backward to prequels. Otherwise we already know what's going to happen.

Why won't they listen to me.. :(

Never been too keen on that idea, but I would agree it would give the series a much needed change in direction, provided it didn't become a soap, I'd welcome a fresh perspective.

[Jin Kazama]

Originally posted by William C. Maune
Since when is Nemesis getting bad reviews?

My thoughts exactly. I've been hearing nothing but praise for it, and rightfully so. I can't remember a time I was more looking forward to a Star Trek movie. First Contact was great, but I didn't really get into until I saw it. This one just seems to be great, and the commercials make it look great. I can't wait to see it, and it's pretty big it seems. ET and Acess Hollywood had pretty lengthy segments for it's premier last night.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Jin Kazama
My thoughts exactly. I've been hearing nothing but praise for it, and rightfully so. I can't remember a time I was more looking forward to a Star Trek movie.

Yeah, I completely agree. Nemesis looks like it'll be great.

[finbarlafume]

Although I've never considered myself a 'trekker', I've watched every episode of both the original series and TNG, enjoying most of them. However, the 1990s brought with them a genuine overdose of Trek. I only managed to get about halfway through DS9, and my interest in Voyager came to an end about 45 minutes into the pilot episode. To date, I have yet to watch a full episode of Enterprise. In order for the show to survive it needs to be taken off the air for at least 10 years - as it stands it's gone totally stale. I'm tired of Star Fleet uniforms, Star Fleet insignia, Star Fleet's Prime Directive, the boring characters and the constant 'reset button' storylines.
I guess that's why 'Babylon 5' was so popular... it was something new. ( and one of the best tv series ever made at that! )

[SilverKnight]

I read something in last week's TV Guide about Berman and Braga wanting to up the sex appeal of Enterprise, and although I think the show is pretty entertaining, I wanted to just bash my head against the wall. Totally, inexorably, the wrong way to go.

Berman and Braga need to go. Trek may need a rest, it may not, but if they keep going at the same pace, they're going to run it into the ground.

And, on the Nemesis point, I think it looks very good. To hell with negative reviews; those people suck anyway. :p

[RZetlin]

Originally posted by William C. Maune
_____Since when is Nemesis getting bad reviews?

Here (http://www.msnbc.com/news/845285.asp?0dm=C18ML) and here (http://linux10985.dn.net/display.cgi?id=14008).

I would like to know your source of good reviews.

[Marc]

Originally posted by RZetlin
Here (http://www.msnbc.com/news/845285.asp?0dm=C18ML) and here (http://linux10985.dn.net/display.cgi?id=14008).

I woule like to know your source of good reviews. First of all, that MSNBC review said that Trek fans will love it, but the average moviegoer won't. If you're not a fan, why would you waste your time and money going to see a Star Trek film?

Secondly, I have never nor will I ever put faith in the garbage that Harry posts on his website, if you can call that mess a website.

RottenTomatoes.com (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/StarTrekNemesis-1117268/reviews.php) so far has 4 positive reviews out of 6 total.

- Cap

[RZetlin]

Originally posted by CaptainInfinity
First of all, that MSNBC review said that Trek fans will love it, but the average moviegoer won't. If you're not a fan, why would you waste your time and money going to see a Star Trek film?

Secondly, I have never nor will I ever put faith in the garbage that Harry posts on his website, if you can call that mess a website.

RottenTomatoes.com (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/StarTrekNemesis-1117268/reviews.php) so far has 4 positive reviews out of 6 total.

- Cap

Wasn't Star Trek Insurrection suppose to be for the fans as well?

[Marc]

Originally posted by RZetlin
Wasn't Star Trek Insurrection suppose to be for the fans as well? Yeah it was, and I loved it. It was no STII or ST:FC, but I still had a great time watching it. For me, even Star Trek at its lowest point is still better than most stuff out there.

- Cap

[Jade_GL]

RottenTomatoes.com so far has 4 positive reviews out of 6 total.

I went there and it said that there technically weren't enough reviews yet to put it on the meter yet. Wait till Friday and that's when we'll know for sure whether this movie will be good or bad in critics eyes. Really, I have no idea either way.

My boyfriend, a huge Next Generation and DS9 fan, is not even excited about this movie. I was all like "Are we going on opening day to watch this?" and he pretty much said "eh." He, as a huge Trek fan, thinks it looks stupid.

That's an opinion from a bigger fan than I. Anyway, I can't pass judgment till I see it, although it doesn't look like anything spectacular. In fact, to me it looked like they rehashed details from First Contact. Oooh let's make another dark Star Trek movie.... I just think it looks too similar to an already great Trek movie. I just hope whatever they do, they do it well. If not, then it's no skin off my back. I wasn't expecting much anyway.

[Joker85]

My biggest problem with Nemesis so far is from what I've read about all the scenes being cut. There is no purpose to cut that much footage from a movie. In the TV Guide article it said they had to enlarge Michael Dorn's part to even get him in the movie, and then they cut most of it out. Not to mention they cut Wesley's 2 second scene. And the point of that was?? It just aggravates me. And of course, even though this is the generations "final journey" everyone but Picard and Data still will be background characters. I'm suffering from Picard and Data overdose. Every single movie has centered around them and left great actors like LeVar Burton and Gates McFadden out to dry.

[RZetlin]

Originally posted by Joker85
Not to mention they cut Wesley's 2 second scene. And the point of that was??

Speaking about Wesley, it seems that Wil Wheaton wasn't invited to the premiere opening of Nemesis.



From Wil Wheaton Webiste (http://www.wilwheaton.net/):

Sadtimes

One of my old spacesuits is being auctioned (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1585884031) off on eBay. I'm not sure why, but it makes me feel a little sad.

I'm sitting here, about to write a little entry about it, when my phone rings. It's a friend of mine, asking me if I'm going to the Star Trek X screening.

"Yeah, on Wednesday," I tell him.

"No, it's tonight," he tells me.

"Tonight? At Paramount?"

"No, it's in Westwood, tonight," he tells me, "I just talked with Marina about it."

Oh no.

That feeling I have gotten so many times before, when I was the only cast member not asked up on stage at the 25th anniversary party, when I was the only cast member not recognized at the screening of "All Good Things..." begins to well up. I feel a little sick.

He wouldn't do this to me, right? Not now, not after the conversations we had when I was working on the movie, not since the phone call informing me of the cut. This must be a mistake. Past is the past, right? We're cool now. There is no way he'd exclude me from this.

But he did.

He did it to me again.

I want to cry.

I tell my friend that I have to go, and hang up the phone.

I sit there alone and cold in the kitchen. I can hear Ryan watching Sabrina The Teenage Witch in the living room.

I can't believe this is happening to me. When Rick told me that my scenes were cut, he assured me that I'd still be invited to the premiere, and that he'd see me there. I was excited to see all my friends again, and share in those moments with them. Be a part of what will really be the final mission.

It turns out that the screening I was invited to will be at Paramount on Wednesday, and pretty much anyone who works at Paramount can attend. It's not the premiere, and none of the cast are going. There's really nothing special about it.

I seriously, desperately hope that this was just an oversight. I desperately hope that this is totally out of Rick's hands, and that he'll tell me that he's sorry if it ever comes up. I desperately hope this isn't personal. I want so badly to believe that it isn't. It sucks to be overlooked, but it sucks less than if I'd been intentionally not invited.

It sure fits a pattern though, huh?

I just -- I don't know what to do. I don't even know how to feel anymore.

But I'll go with hurt for now.

Really, really f**king hurt.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Joker85
My biggest problem with Nemesis so far is from what I've read about all the scenes being cut. There is no purpose to cut that much footage from a movie. In the TV Guide article it said they had to enlarge Michael Dorn's part to even get him in the movie, and then they cut most of it out. Not to mention they cut Wesley's 2 second scene. And the point of that was?? It just aggravates me. And of course, even though this is the generations "final journey" everyone but Picard and Data still will be background characters. I'm suffering from Picard and Data overdose. Every single movie has centered around them and left great actors like LeVar Burton and Gates McFadden out to dry. The question is not why they cut Wesley's scene, but why they would bother to keep it in the final cut? It does nothing to advance the story. That's how film editing works. Scenes that move the story along stay in, scenes that don't get cut.

As for Data and Picard, ST:TNG is their story, always has been. Just as ST:TOS was Kirk and Spock's. Everyone else is just supporting characters. Nemesis is the most important event in both Picard and Data's evolution as characters. Everything changes after this.

There must be something good about this film for Patrick Stewart to be so excited about playing Picard again, a character he has long wished to distance himself from. The way I see it, you're not a Next Gen fan if you're not excited about this movie.

- Cap

[Buddy Lee]

If that's true about them excluding Wil Wheaton, then that really sucks on their part. Well, it might be a blessing in disguise, because this movie likes like a walking turd.

I have been a Star Trek fan since my father took me to see ST II: The Wrath of Khan. Since that time, I have seen every ST film. I have zero interest in this movie. The trailers do not make anyone want to drop what they are doing and get tickets for this movie.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
The trailers do not make anyone want to drop what they are doing and get tickets for this movie. Well, that's just your opinion. Personally, there is no movie announced that I'm looking forward to more than Nemesis. Hulk comes close, but that's it. If you're not excited about it, then that's too bad. I'm not here on a campaign to win new Next Gen fans, so unless you adore ST:TNG, there should be little reason you'd want to see Nemesis.

BTW, does anyone have dibs on the Talkback this friday?

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

At this point, I'd say that Farscape (RIP, rotten razza-frazzin' SciFi channel idiots...) and, to a lesser extent, Firefly are better Trek shows than anything coming from the official "Trek" franchise. I felt they needed to hang it up for a while since watching the premiere of "Enterprise."

-- Ed/Ace

[wolverine0815]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy,

At this point, I'd say that Farscape (RIP, rotten razza-frazzin' SciFi channel idiots...) and, to a lesser extent, Firefly are better Trek shows than anything coming from the official "Trek" franchise. I felt they needed to hang it up for a while since watching the premiere of "Enterprise."

-- Ed/Ace

I would have to disagree about Firefly. I personnally can't get into Firefly. I like the concept for Enterprise. Last nights show was one of the better ones recently.

[Joker85]

Originally posted by CaptainInfinity
The question is not why they cut Wesley's scene, but why they would bother to keep it in the final cut? It does nothing to advance the story. That's how film editing works. Scenes that move the story along stay in, scenes that don't get cut.


There must be something good about this film for Patrick Stewart to be so excited about playing Picard again, a character he has long wished to distance himself from. The way I see it, you're not a Next Gen fan if you're not excited about this movie.

- Cap
OK, you are missing my point entirely. If this really is the Next Generations FINAL mission, shouldn't they all be in it? Wesley was on the show for 4 years and numerous guest spots. That scene wouldn't have advanced the story, but it was like literallyl 10 seconds long? You tell me how that could have hurt the movie in any way? You could sneeze and never have known he was there. As far as Patrick announcing how excited he was...one that is promotional, and two- You did read where he like not have done this movie at all because he wasn't getting paid as much as he got in Insurrection. If he had truly been that excited, it wouldn't have been such an issue. And yes, Next Generation is my favorite show and favorite Star Trek-I consider myself a big fan. And I'm not really all that excited about this movie. Sure it's good to see my favorite crew again, but I don't feel it's a good story for them to end on.

[James]

Originally posted by Joker85
OK, you are missing my point entirely. If this really is the Next Generations FINAL mission, shouldn't they all be in it? Wesley was on the show for 4 years and numerous guest spots. That scene wouldn't have advanced the story, but it was like literallyl 10 seconds long? You tell me how that could have hurt the movie in any way? You could sneeze and never have known he was there. As far as Patrick announcing how excited he was...one that is promotional, and two- You did read where he like not have done this movie at all because he wasn't getting paid as much as he got in Insurrection. If he had truly been that excited, it wouldn't have been such an issue. And yes, Next Generation is my favorite show and favorite Star Trek-I consider myself a big fan. And I'm not really all that excited about this movie. Sure it's good to see my favorite crew again, but I don't feel it's a good story for them to end on.

I think the point is not what they take out which could have gone in, but what scene they felt was more relevant to be included. It's easy to forget that editing isn't just about trimming the negative, it's adding the essential, and maintaining a flow which isn't tripped. I'd say that the piece of Wes didn't just not fit, but they had another piece which they felt was more important to the show to fit into the runtime. I wonder what that was...?

[Joker85]

Yes the running time is just SO important. God forbid they go 10 seconds over 2 hrs. I mean, that would just be such a tragedy. :rolleyes:

[Marc]

First of all Joker85, I wasn’t singling you out when I said “...If you’re not excited, you’re not a fan...”, I was just saying that in general.

As for a conclusion to Next Gen, I couldn’t have asked for a better conclusion than “All Good Things...”. That episode was the perfect ending to the series, IMO. As far as I’m concerned, the Trek films are like an added bonus, it’s the TV series that is the meat of the story. You and I could sit here all day fantasizing about our ultimate “final ST:TNG story”. Sure, I’d love to see Wes again. Same goes for Troi’s mother, Q, O’Brien, Lore, Spot, and the holodeck. I’d love to see Data play Sherlock Holmes one last time, and Picard play Dixon Hill. And whatever happened to Sela? Or Moriarty? Or Daimon Bok? The truth is, there are way too many elements and it’s just not possible to fit them all in a movie. “All Good Things...” is THE conclusion to ST:TNG. The films are just the continuing adventures. Bonus material, if you will.

The best Star Trek, and sci-fi for that matter, are stories about ideas. Ideas that make you think and wonder about things. Nemesis looks to be an action flick first and foremost, but that doesn’t make me any less excited to see it. Now that we have almost every single ST:TNG episode on DVD, there’s no shortage of classic “idea” stories to pick from. Could this movie stink? Sure it could. But me, I’m easily entertained when it comes to the Star Trek films. I even enjoyed parts of ST5!

Regarding Nemesis; None of the cast were obligated to make this movie, and yes, Spiner and Stewart took pay cuts for it. According to Stewart, it was the script that got him so excited, and he claims he’d play Picard again if Logan writes the script, regardless of what the story is about. True, he could just be trying to hype his own movie, but I’ve never known Stewart to behave in this way before.

We haven't seen the last of these characters. ;)

- Cap

[wonderfly]

Remember the Golden Rule: The Even number Trek films are good, the Odd number Trek films are Bad. Since this is an Even number, (we're on number 10), this film will rock.

I'm looking forward to the film myself. The last film was terribly disapointing to me, but there's a lot of expectations for this one.

Still, I'm wondering if it's possible anymore to make a Trek film that's not for the fans, but for everyone. I'm all for being all inclusive with our scifi loves, (and Star Trek is the biggest scifi cult around) but would it hurt to make films a little more for everyone?

For instance: The only reason Troi and Riker are back together is because the fans wanted it. Personally, I don't give a screw what the fans want as long as the story is decent, (and I think this films story is going to be more than decent :D ). Giving into your fans is sometimes hazardous to a genre's health. Let the writers be creative, not just flesh out what the goofballs online want. (yeah, I'm a online goofball too, but I see the danger here).

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by wonderfly
Remember the Golden Rule: The Even number Trek films are good, the Odd number Trek films are Bad. Since this is an Even number, (we're on number 10), this film will rock.
I've never agreed with the even-odd trek rule. The only two movies I really felt were subpar were I and V. In my opinion, the rest were all pretty good, to a greater and lesser degree. And even V was more than watchable. There moments that I found enjoyable.

Nemesis looks and sounds like it'll be great. There's a good, detailed, thoughful review at trekweb.com by Steve Krutzler, though it does contain spoilers. From what Steve says, the only major problem is some of the cuts. Other than that, he says it flows well, "mixing large-scale action/adventure with stimulating character drama in a package you just can’t get on the small screen". He ranks it third behind "Wrath of Khan" and "Undiscovered Country" giving it 4/5 stars.

What's unfortunate is that perception of Nemesis seems to be negative because of the amount of Trek that's been on television over the years. It's been 4 years since the last movie, which is sizeable gap, but that's hardly noticed with new trek episodes on tv every single year. I think the situation would have been a lot better if Voyager and Enterprise had never been.

[James]

Originally posted by Joker85
Yes the running time is just SO important. God forbid they go 10 seconds over 2 hrs. I mean, that would just be such a tragedy. :rolleyes:

A ten second scene is longer than it sounds. If the 10 seconds offers tangents or subjects which don't fit with the flow of the film, distract the viewer or just looks awkward, I think it's worth giving up those 10 seconds. Running time itself isn't as important as the flow and direction of the film. Keeping the audience focused and the film well paced must take importance over fan trivia. Since it will be on the DVD, I don't think the fans should grumble.

On the issue of odd/even. I enjoyed ST:TMP. It was flawed but enjoyable. I thought three was excellent adding a new dimension to the characters (who would have thought that Kirk would turn against Starfleet? But what a reason to do so) as well as the shocking destruction of the Enterprise (which has since been all too frequent). Five I think wasn't as bad as people say - it felt the most like the old TV series - I suppose it depends whether you think that makes a good film or not.

The only film which has really disappointed was Generations. I thought it was full of plotholes, poorly paced, and Kirk's death felt meaningless.

Even nine I thought was a light and enjoyable affair. Will Nemesis appeal? Well removing Wes' 10 seconds of glory is a good start...

[Joe Wagner]

I've gotta admit that ever since I saw the first trailer for this film I've been eagerly anticipating seeing it. Being a Trek fan for a lot of my life I can understand why people think that the show is getting tired - I mean there has been more than one occassion while watching Enterprise that I felt I had seen the episode in Next Generation or DS9 before.

TNG will always hold a place as my favorite Trek series and I hope that this movie will reinvigorate the franchise - esp if it allows Enterprise to take some chances. In truth though if there is another Trek series after Enterprise I hope that the Paramount execs will say goodbye to Berman and Braga and consider following the adventures of either a different ship or species (the USS Phoenix, the Klingon or Romulan empires, etc).

-Joe!

[sKorpia]

Originally posted by Joker85
Yes the running time is just SO important. God forbid they go 10 seconds over 2 hrs. I mean, that would just be such a tragedy. :rolleyes:

I partially agree. People have been trained to be able to sit for a slightly over 2 hour movie so 2h 15m or 2h 30m isn't going to drive fans away. I swear, our next evolution will involve a highly voluntary urinary system with a "hold it" reflex that will last for hours. :p

BUT . . . there are still SO many people who complain when a movie is too long. It may be good and all but they still will hold something against the movie if it causes the butt to fall asleep or the mind to start wandering. I thought Bug's Life was a good film and a good story . . . but long. I started squirming with about a half hour to go and to this day, that movie doesn't rank anywhere near as high as Pixar's other fare. So they have a right to be concerned with film length.

Maybe not so picky though.

So far, this is the only place where I've heard anything negative about Nemesis. But then again, I'm not looking. And I kinda prefer the action-driven stuff as opposed to the campy "feels like an episode" storylines. It works sometimes ("Hello computer.") and sometimes, you just want your characters to kick major butt ("Assimilate this."). First Contact I liked because there was butt-kicking and the exploration of revenge. It's difficult to make an action-packed psychological story work but I felt it worked well there.

As to old, tired, recycled material, look around you. Everything is recycled from the past. Our clothes are retro (bell-bottoms, hip huggers, peasant tops), entertainment is borrowing heftily from the past (Scooby, P. Diddy, the resurrection of many superheroes to a live medium), the way we talk isn't exactly new (maybe with the exception of the word "like"). I feel we've reached the point where every story ever told has already been told before. It's just showing up with different faces, different settings, or different combinations. For awhile, I got really depressed over this because then I thought, "Whatever I do, it won't matter because it's been done before. All of my thoughts have been thought by someone else." But a prof put it in perspective. He said that if I thought like that, every single word out of my mouth would be a citation because it had been said before. Therefore, I shouldn't worry about it. Remember, one person's rip-off is another person's homage.

[Chris Wood]

Originally posted by RZetlin
Speaking about Wesley, it seems that Wil Wheaton wasn't invited to the premiere opening of Nemesis.

Ha! Ha! Wesley's going to cry. He's just lucky the writers didn't kill off his whiny self years ago.

[Jedigreedo]

Why would they? Gene modeled Wesley after himself.

[wonderfly]

Originally posted by DarkAngel


I've never agreed with the even-odd trek rule. The only two movies I really felt were subpar were I and V. In my opinion, the rest were all pretty good, to a greater and lesser degree. And even V was more than watchable. There moments that I found enjoyable.




Actually, I don't neccesarily agree with the rule either. I loved Number 7, Generations. Number 5 and Number 9 were the worst of the bunch in my opinion. I feel the "rule" should be ammended to say, "The Odd number films will be okay, or just so-so, but the Even films rule for all time!" Or something like that....


Originally posted by SJJ

The only film which has really disappointed was Generations. I thought it was full of plotholes, poorly paced, and Kirk's death felt meaningless.




Generations holds a special place in my heart cause I went and saw it opening day, and it's one of the few films in recent years where I remember the audience cheering for the hero's on screeen. Nowadays, for some reason, when I go to a film, during the comedy bits, sure, I'll hear the audience laugh, but not since Generations have I seen members of the audience stand up and cheer for the hero's on screen, (maybe it was just a room full of Trek fans, and I didn't know it?) :confused: This happen to anyone else at any Trek film?

[Marc]

Originally posted by Jedigreedo
Why would they? Gene modeled Wesley after himself. That's true, but Wes was the character you loved to hate. He was the Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek. :D Seriously though, I always liked Wes and would love to see a new series (many years from now), with Wes as a grown man commanding his own ship, even though he left Starfleet.

I actually liked Generations. True, it was full of plot holes (Scotty's inexplicable appearance, for one), but I thought we got to see some great character driven scenes with Picard. Kirk's death could have been better though. I always envisioned him sacrificing his life by flying a starship into an enemy vessel, or something heroic like that.

- Cap

[Chris Wood]

Generations was rather weak. The new crew suffered in the presence of Kirk, looking bland by comparison. The villain and his scheme were both a bit unabsorbing.

But worst of all was that terrible death scene they gave Kirk. They might as well have had the whole crew spit on his grave for all the respect they showed him. He is a character who deserves, no, demands a heroic and epic death. It would probably have been best to have him go down with the ship, launching a final kamikaze attack while the rest of the crew escaped. Having him clumsily fall off a bridge is inexcusable.

[Buddy Lee]

Bravo, Desslar!!!

Finally, somebody said it. It was such an anticlimatic way to kill an iconic figure like Captain Kirk. He deserved so much better. I thought "Generations" was a very mediocre movie at best. The Scotty, Kirk, and Chekov scenes made little sense as they were written for Spock, Kirk, and McCoy. The rest of the movie was so slowly paced and unmoving until we finally get to Picard meeting Kirk.

The movie reminded me so much of Transformers: The Movie. You remember that, right? Optimus Prime battles Megatron to a battle to the death in the first act of the film. Then, there's a whole lot of boredom until the third act where Prime returns as a voiceover passing the torch to Hot Rod, who would become Rodimus Prime.

Just a thought

[Joker85]

Originally posted by SJJ
A ten second scene is longer than it sounds. If the 10 seconds offers tangents or subjects which don't fit with the flow of the film, distract the viewer or just looks awkward, I think it's worth giving up those 10 seconds. Running time itself isn't as important as the flow and direction of the film. Keeping the audience focused and the film well paced must take importance over fan trivia. Since it will be on the DVD, I don't think the fans should grumble.

Even nine I thought was a light and enjoyable affair. Will Nemesis appeal? Well removing Wes' 10 seconds of glory is a good start...
Can you honestly sit there and tell me that you would feel the freaking flow of the film would be interrupted by a 10 sec scene with Wesley in it. Why don't you just glance at your watch, it would be over with by the time you looked back up. I mean, I get where you are coming from, and if there was like a 10 minute scene with Wil Wheaton, that might be a little differenct. But a cameo is NOT gonna interrupt the flow of the movie. And let me ask you something, since when does a perfectly paced movie take the place of something the fans might enjoy seeing? If it weren't for the fans, we wouldn't even be watching this movie. I don't buy that crap that I've heard Berman say.."We are making this movie for everyone, not just Trek fans". I got news for you Mr. Berman, those everyday people are the ones who laugh at people who go see a Star Trek movie. Anyways, the whole point of this rant is would you please explain to me how a few seconds of something not vital to the plot messes up it's flow??

[SilverKnight]

Actually, I remember almost nothing from Generations; only Data's couple of funny moments. (I know this may be off topic, but I found the funniest Generations parody I've ever seen. If you hated the movie, you'll love it. A Parody of Star Trek: Generations (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=572715)/ "I will gladly accept the advice of a former captain known for being rash." "That's the way to go." :D)

I'm going to try and see Nemesis tonight; I've been waiting to see it for six months, dammit, and I'm not going to be denied now! >insert evil laughter here< Okay, so that was kind of stupid, but it seemed to fit with the moment. What, George Lucas can do something cliche and get away with it, but I can't? :) j/k

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Desslar
Having him clumsily fall off a bridge is inexcusable.
Your painting the scene more negatively than it was. Kirk never clumsily fell off a bridge.

I liked the fact that, in a sense, he died alone. That fits with what Kirk said in "Final Frontier." And he did die saving the lives of millions, which is as it should be.

Could he have had a better death? Sure. But let's not go overboard with the criticisms.

[Discloner]

Originally posted by Joker85
OK, you are missing my point entirely. If this really is the Next Generations FINAL mission, shouldn't they all be in it? Wesley was on the show for 4 years and numerous guest spots. That scene wouldn't have advanced the story, but it was like literallyl 10 seconds long? You tell me how that could have hurt the movie in any way? You could sneeze and never have known he was there. As far as Patrick announcing how excited he was...one that is promotional, and two- You did read where he like not have done this movie at all because he wasn't getting paid as much as he got in Insurrection. If he had truly been that excited, it wouldn't have been such an issue. And yes, Next Generation is my favorite show and favorite Star Trek-I consider myself a big fan. And I'm not really all that excited about this movie. Sure it's good to see my favorite crew again, but I don't feel it's a good story for them to end on.

Access Hollywood had an interview tonight, and one of the cast members said...look at the promos for the movie...it says "A crew's last voyage is just beginning..." Therefor this is only the beginning...unless it does poorly.

[Mynd Hed]

Access Hollywood had an interview tonight, and one of the cast members said...look at the promos for the movie...it says "A crew's last voyage is just beginning..." Therefor this is only the beginning...unless it does poorly.

I wouldn't take a vague PR-fluff statement like that so literally.

[Discloner]

Originally posted by Mynd Hed
I wouldn't take a vague PR-fluff statement like that so literally.
Ok... :p

[James]

Originally posted by Joker85
Can you honestly sit there and tell me that you would feel the freaking flow of the film would be interrupted by a 10 sec scene with Wesley in it. Why don't you just glance at your watch, it would be over with by the time you looked back up. I mean, I get where you are coming from, and if there was like a 10 minute scene with Wil Wheaton, that might be a little differenct. But a cameo is NOT gonna interrupt the flow of the movie. And let me ask you something, since when does a perfectly paced movie take the place of something the fans might enjoy seeing? If it weren't for the fans, we wouldn't even be watching this movie. I don't buy that crap that I've heard Berman say.."We are making this movie for everyone, not just Trek fans". I got news for you Mr. Berman, those everyday people are the ones who laugh at people who go see a Star Trek movie. Anyways, the whole point of this rant is would you please explain to me how a few seconds of something not vital to the plot messes up it's flow??

First off, calm down bud. It's only my opinion. Not gospel. :) Just my viewpoint, and I do understand what you're saying.
I just believe that this sort of editing is done for a reason and I'm inclined to agree that often such dressing scenes may need to be cut.
I think there has to be a balance between telling a story and giving a film to the fans. Throw in too many random story elements, in particular cameos, and the general audience can be confused. I can't see, from what I've heard, what the Wesley scene adds to the story. I'd rather this sort of trivial scene was removed and had a well paced movie that doesn't offer too many random tangents. Even the smallest scene can disrupt the casual viewer. It's a shame, but sometimes a compromise has to be made.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by SJJ
Even the smallest scene can disrupt the casual viewer. It's a shame, but sometimes a compromise has to be made.
That's true. What do you think about not explaining Worf's presence on the Enterprise, though? I haven't seen the movie, but apparantly there's no mention of what he's doing there (given that he was supposed to be ambassador to the klingon homeworld, as stated in DS9's final episode). Something like that may not be critical to the story in Nemesis, but it would stand out to someone that's been watching Star Trek and expected Worf to be elsewhere.

[Joker85]

OK, having seen Nemesis I only have one more thought to add to this thread...
When Rick Berman gets whats coming to him..I hope it hurts. I hope that man has to suffer for what he has done to this franchise. Paramount, I'm begging you, get rid of him for the love of God!!! :mad:

[Buddy Lee]

I take it, Joker85, that the movie's not good. I haven't seen it yet so I was just wondering if it's worth the $15.00 for me and my girl to go see it.

She's not a Trek fan, so I will probably have to go see "Two Week Notice" or "Big Fat Greek Wedding" to make it up to her.

If you tell me, it's good then I will go see it. I have always liked your posts and respect your opinions. If you tell me to wait until it comes to Blockbuster, then we will probably go see "The Hot Chick" or something like that.

[James]

I agree, by all I'm hearing, get rid of Berman and Braga before they destroy any financial credibility the franchise had.

[Joker85]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
I take it, Joker85, that the movie's not good. I haven't seen it yet so I was just wondering if it's worth the $15.00 for me and my girl to go see it.

She's not a Trek fan, so I will probably have to go see "Two Week Notice" or "Big Fat Greek Wedding" to make it up to her.

If you tell me, it's good then I will go see it. I have always liked your posts and respect your opinions. If you tell me to wait until it comes to Blockbuster, then we will probably go see "The Hot Chick" or something like that.
Here's the deal...it's entertaining as a Popcorn movie if you are looking for action and action only. If your girlfriend is not a Star Trek fan I'd say don't go cause she willl probably hate it. Now this is just my opinion, but I'd wait to catch it on the DVD. It's very disappointing.