What did the Penguin do to earn a spot in the Big 3?

[Frank White]

As in Joker, Penguin, and Two-Face. I like the guy, probably more than most people on this board since it seems that the average opinion is most B:TAS Penguin stories sucked. For the record the only one I thought was horrid was a Batman in my Basement. But anyway, I don't see how he's up there. He's just a common crook with a bird fetish. He's not insane. He's intelligent, but not more than R'as or the Riddler.

[TimTwoFace]

I don't really consider the Joker, Penguin, and Two-Face to be "the big three" any more. In fact, it's really difficult to rank the villains any further than just saying they're an "A-list" villain (which now has about 15 or so members), "other costumed nuts", and "normal villains".

The main reason the Penguin is still held in such high regard is that he's been around forever and is well-known amongst even non-comic fans. For years I considered there to only be five big villains, those being the Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, and Two-Face - and everyone else was "lesser" because they didn't appear in the comics nearly as much, they weren't on the 60's series at all, etc...of course, BTAS changed all that.

The Penguin is still a very formidable foe because, even though he's not super-intelligent and puzzle-crazy like, say, the Riddler is, he's still a very cagey bird *SNICKER* and well educated. You can't say he's a stupid character - he's very intelligent and sophisticated, even moreso now that he's a "legitimate businessman". If only we got a definitive origin story for Pengy on BTAS - that would answer a lot of questions we have about his past and his motivations.

-Tim

[BLACKHEART]

Penguin and Two Face in the same league as Joker? Not even close

Joker, Ivy, and Ra's are the big three with Freeze, and Scarecrow getting honorable mention

[Jade_GL]

A lot of people will emntion Penguin or think of Penguin because he's been around since the 1940s, so all age groups know him, and he was in one of the better Batman movies.

I think Penguin is just a villain that's been around a long time and therefore gets mentioned more, maybe as being a top three villain or whatever. Not only that, but unlike Ivy and Freeze, he wasn't in the movie, Batman and Robin. :D:D:D

All Batman villains are cool though. I like Joker, Harley Quinn, Ras, Talia, and a lot of others.

[Ordinary Guy]

I agree with Tim on how he's been around for so long.

Most people are not that familar with other Batman villians showcased in the comics. It took me the longest time to figure out that King Tut was not a Batman comic villian, and I' m still learning about some lesser known Batman villians like Black Mask, and Mr. Zsasz (sp.) to name a few.

But most of the stuff people know about Batman came from the old Adam West show and the movie that featured The Joker, Catwoman, The Riddler, and the Penguin as the main villians.

[BLACKHEART]

The old TV show made Penguin and Riddler "top villians" for market reasons. Parents will remember these guys from the show and take their kids to see the new movies etc etc

That's why Penguin gets a push

[dark knight acolyte]

I definitely agree with the notion that Penguin, Joker, and Two-Face aren't necessarily the big three anymore, to use the term liberally.
Its hard to give a definitive answer on who would be the "big anything" seeing as how its hard to decide what merits to base that on. Likewise, there are many Batman villians that could arguably be considered one of Batman's top villians, with reasons that range from nostalgia to sheer preference to objective opinions about the characters.
I personally believe that if you HAD TO choose a big anything, that it would probably start with the big four. Batman reached some of his highest pinnacles in popularity during the 60's era, albeit some people choose not to recognize this era due to the camp and pop feel it gave Batman. However, many older Bat-fans remember vividly the Adam West series, in which the BIG FOUR were Joker, Penguin, Riddler, and Catwoman. I suppose I give these four the award simply based on their RECOGNIZABILITY due to their popularity height in that era and beyond. Everything else is much more subjective; however, objective, based on recognizibility, I think those four would be the "BIG FOUR."
I think the Penguin's a great character, but moreso when used in his "businessman-like" motif. I like that much more so than the bird-fetished, umbrella toting criminal, though I'm not saying those are aspects of his personality that should be ignored. After all, the "clothes" do make that man.

[Anarky]

Don't hate on the Penguin. He's O.G.

I've got the Bob Kane 50th anniversary lith set.
It features the Batman & Robin (and the Batmobile) swinging down on The Joker, Catwoman, & The Penguin. And it looks great.

I also have the Dick Sprang lith, featuring the Joker, Two-Face, & the Penguin.

Like it or not, Oswald Cobblepot is a major player in Gotham. And I love his new angle. True, his eps were among the worst on BTAS, but "Blind as a Bat" was a good ep.

But he was great in "Joker's Millions", "The Ultimate Thrill", "Judgement Day", "Knighttime", & "Girls' Nite Out"

And I'm certain he'll be great in the upcoming DTV project. Is that a fall '03 release?

As far as the Big 3 goes: I'd say the top 3 perps are The Joker, Two-Face, & the Scarecrow. That's right, the 'Crow. His mind is among the most dangerous in Gotham and he has the means to thrust the city into total chaos. Not to mention, he's a mass murderer in the comics. Crane is grossly overlooked by many. Penguin & Ivy round out the Top 5, are far as their influence and oppurtunities for peril.

[TimTwoFace]

Originally posted by Anarky

As far as the Big 3 goes: I'd say the top 3 perps are The Joker, Two-Face, & the Scarecrow. That's right, the 'Crow. His mind is among the most dangerous in Gotham and he has the means to thrust the city into total chaos. Not to mention, he's a mass murderer in the comics. Crane is grossly overlooked by many. Penguin & Ivy round out the Top 5, are far as their influence and oppurtunities for peril.

It's funny how your top three actually incorporates my favourite three. Sweet. :)

I'd never put Ra's Al Ghul in the top 3, though...he's an "A-list" villain and all, and definitely formidable, but there are better villains that test Batman's abilities far better (and far more often) than he does. As for Ivy and Freeze...also great villains, but they're not used very often. And Ivy doesn't really do much of anything any more in the comics except hang out with Ivy and look "attractive". :p

-Tim

[Cere]

Penguin was so horrible on B:TAS because it was a radical departure from the Penguin in the comics. B:TAS used the psychotic rabid bird mutant from "Batman Returns" and not the intelligent classy deformed Penguin from the comics. TNBA returned thankfully returned Penguin to his rightful self, and I'm sure they'll stick to that for the Batwoman movie.

[Jade_GL]

Originally posted by Cere
Penguin was so horrible on B:TAS because it was a radical departure from the Penguin in the comics. B:TAS used the psychotic rabid bird mutant from "Batman Returns" and not the intelligent classy deformed Penguin from the comics. TNBA returned thankfully returned Penguin to his rightful self, and I'm sure they'll stick to that for the Batwoman movie.

Actually, it depends on what version in the comics you're looking at. The early verion in the 40s was a man who did bird based crime. Not psychotic, but not the classy gangster that has been made in the recent comics. Like all comic characters, there are many many versions.

Batman Returns was made in 1992, same year as the BTAS, so I am not sure if that's a correlation, but would they be aware of what each other were doing? Would DC be trying to make one sure version in the media? I have no idea. It's a though but I don't know if they tried to match up each version.

If so, why was Catwaoman not made psychotic in the cartoon? Catwoman, from my recollection, was made to be very classy, ambiguous in her being evil or good, etc. In the movie she's a freak murder, generally good, but likes to explode things and cause mayhem. If they made Penguin to be like Batman Returns version, why not Catwoman?

I'm just thinking of what version of Pengy they used. It seemed an amalgamation of a lot of versions to me, campy in some ways, dark too.

[James Harvey]

I consider the Joker to be the biggest Batman villian, with all others far, far under him. Joker is the complete opposite of Batman in almost everyway and has proven to be the perfect foil for him. As for the Penguin, I consider him a step under Ra's Al Ghul. He's still a major player in the Batman Rogue's Gallery, alongside Two-Face, The Riddler, and the Scarecrow. The rest of the Batman villians pretty much fall under that.

Much like the Scarecrow, the Penguin has been a massively overlooked character in both the regular comics and in the animated series. They finally got him right in the latter 24 episodes and made him a "legitimate businessman", a twist which I thought was both ingenious and the proper way to go with the character.

To me, there is no "Big Three." There's the Joker...and everyone else.

[Lucky Bob]

Here's the thing, I never liked Ra's at all. When you have a character with mystical abilities, you throw the intelligent psychological stuff out the window. ("Eh, it's just magic.")

Penguin was a strange character in the BTAS eps. I always thought he was the most badly drawn member of the bunch, and I don't remember him in anything memorable. TNBA was a step forward for Pengy. I really wished the series would have unfolded a bit more, to let us know which direction the Penguin was going in.

As far as the rest of the villains, they are special in their own way.

[BLACKHEART]

What do you mean Tim? Do you mean "Ivy just hangs out with Harley and looks good?" Don't forget she did supply Gotham with fresh fruits and vegetables.

I wouldn't base any opinions of Ivy on what you saw in the Harley Quinn book.

And it appears she may play a big role in "Hush" but we need to let the story advance to see what role she will play.

[dc_gothamite]

The B:TAS and TNBA Penguin were the same type of character, i think... i dont think B:TAS made Penguin psychotic or n/e thing like that... they just used the Penguin design from "Batman Returns" which premiered the same year "Batman: The Animated Series" did.

[Jade_GL]

Originally posted by dc_gothamite
The B:TAS and TNBA Penguin were the same type of character, i think... i dont think B:TAS made Penguin psychotic or n/e thing like that... they just used the Penguin design from "Batman Returns" which premiered the same year "Batman: The Animated Series" did.

Yeah, I think the designs are pretty much similar. I just was wondering about Selina and why they went a different way if the movie influenced character development. Just brainstorming. :D

[TimTwoFace]

Even though the freaky BATMAN RETURNS Penguin was used on BTAS - at least visually speaking - he was still treated as a classy, sophisticated man. BIRDS OF A FEATHER is perfect proof of that. Just listen to his words, his diction, his style; I never classified the BTAS Penguin as psychotic. Excluding the terrible I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT episode, I thought the Penguin's batch of episodes rather good.

-Tim

[Frank White]

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
Even though the freaky BATMAN RETURNS Penguin was used on BTAS - at least visually speaking - he was still treated as a classy, sophisticated man. BIRDS OF A FEATHER is perfect proof of that. Just listen to his words, his diction, his style; I never classified the BTAS Penguin as psychotic. Excluding the terrible I'VE GOT BATMAN IN MY BASEMENT episode, I thought the Penguin's batch of episodes rather good.

-Tim

:) Hey! Someone who agrees with me that the Penguins eps. were good.

Anyway Jim, why do you put the Penguin just under Ra's?

My personal big three is Joker( cause he gets to Batman like no other person, villian or hero. I'm talking Superman, Alfred, Robin, Phantasm, whoever), Two-Face( It's truly personal) and Ra's. I just real Ra's belongs up there with the big boys. Ra's is the only villain who's plans constantly threaten the world. Along with the Joker, I consider Ra's the only Bat-villain that can play with the other big boys(Supes, GL, Flash...) Ra's challenges Batman physically, mentally, and spiritually( Remember in the comics, in Tower of Bable what he did to Bruce's parents? that just sealed it for me, Ra's is up there. Well anyway, I agree with Jim that NO ONE is above the Joker. But if there are two villains to round up a Big Three it would be Two-Face and Ra's

[James Harvey]

Before I start, remember folks - this board is for ANIMATED DISCUSSION. It doesn't matter what a character did in one of the live action movies, or TV series. It doesn't matter what they've done in any of the mainstream comics. This is discussion on the ANIMATED world, and ONLY the animated world. Please respect that, thank you very much.

Anyway Jim, why do you put the Penguin just under Ra's?

Becuase that's where he belongs. First Joker, then Ra's, and then the Penguin alongside others villians such as Two-Face, Catwoman, The Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and the Scarecrow. Under them we have Talia, Harley Quinn, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Ventriloquist, and then Poison Ivy, Bane, Firefly, and, well....whoever else remains.

Joker will always be the big villian - no matter what. He presents a challenge towards Batman that he'll neevr be able to overcome, even in death. Ra's (and to a lesser extent Talia) also presents the serious threat of knowing his identity. Afterwards, it goes down from there.

I was just saying that the Penguin is of same status (to me) as Two-Face, Catwoman, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, and the Riddler, and is above pretty much all the other villians. But Joker and Ra's remain the two best Batman villians...such cool villians. Everyone else is below Joker and Ra's...everyone....

[Jade_GL]

Before I start, remember folks - this board is for ANIMATED DISCUSSION. It doesn't matter what a character did in one of the live action movies, or TV series. It doesn't matter what they've done in any of the mainstream comics. This is discussion on the ANIMATED world, and ONLY the animated world. Please respect that, thank you very much.

Sorry, I was just talking about where influences from characters came from. I wasn't trying to veer off topic, but I'll be more careful in the future.

[Patrick Bateman]

Becuase that's where he belongs. First Joker, then Ra's, and then the Penguin alongside others villians such as Two-Face, Catwoman, The Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and the Scarecrow. Under them we have Talia, Harley Quinn, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Ventriloquist, and then Poison Ivy, Bane, Firefly, and, well....whoever else remains.
Ra's and Penguin before Two-Face? :confused: I've always thought that Two-Face was the number two (how apropriate) villain. For no other reason than the fact that Harvey was Bruce's friend. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have someone who's one of your best friends trying to kill you all the time. Some villains may have been more of a threat, but Two-Face is the only one who ate away at Bruce's heart.

[murmur]

Originally posted by Jade_GL
Yeah, I think the designs are pretty much similar. I just was wondering about Selina and why they went a different way if the movie influenced character development. Just brainstorming. :D Actually, they treated Catwoman and Penguin exactly the same way in B:tAS. Characters based on their comic book versions and designs based on a softer version of the movie. Penguin has some of the "freak" features of Batman Returns but doesn't look as menacing. Likewise, Selina has blonde hair, just like Pfeiffer, and her costume is rather, er, form-fitting, but it's not the black leather.

[TimTwoFace]

...hmmm...another idea that I've always thrown about. The "big three", if we want to go with that lucrative title, should include the Joker, Catwoman, and Two-Face, solely because of all the villains in the rogue's gallery, they all share the closest bonds to Batman and the rest of the Bat-team and their allies. Most of their outings up the emotional ante as opposed to any of the others.

And, oddly enough, they were all chosen by Frank Miller to appear in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and have the most prominent roles in other big Bat-stories like THE LONG HALLOWEEN. :)

-Tim

[James Harvey]

Ra's and Penguin before Two-Face? I've always thought that Two-Face was the number two (how apropriate) villain. For no other reason than the fact that Harvey was Bruce's friend. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have someone who's one of your best friends trying to kill you all the time. Some villains may have been more of a threat, but Two-Face is the only one who ate away at Bruce's heart.

Your misunderstanding me here - The Penguin is not better then Two-Face, but on the same plain. Here's a chart to help me explain:

1. Joker

2. Ra's

3. Two-Face, Penguin, Catwoman, The Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and the Scarecrow.

4. and then the rest.

That help?

[BLACKHEART]

Tim using that logic the big three would be Joker, Catwoman, and Black Mask. Black Mask and Bruce have tons of personal history on both sides of the masks.

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by SLIPKNOT
Tim using that logic the big three would be Joker, Catwoman, and Black Mask. Black Mask and Bruce have tons of personal history on both sides of the masks.

Black Mask hasn't appeared in the animated universe to my knowledge so he's not relevant here. He's a comic character, not an animated charatcer. Please remember that. This is a board for ANIMATED Batman discussion, and only that.

[dark knight acolyte]

I do agree that this is a board for animated discussion and that a concerted effort should be made on everyone's part to keep the material and thoughts they present relevant to that genre of Batman. However, the animated Batman universe has serious ties and stems to other genres, including the comic, movies, and even the old adam west series. SO, perhaps it would be better to say that one should try to keep other genres to a minimum, using them only so long as they link to a point they are issuing in terms of the animated series.
To defend my post, which goes outside of the animation world in defense of who I think the big four would be in the animation world and everywhere batman related... in the 60's, with the Adam West series...four villians became the most popular in terms of recognizability, Penguin, Catwoman, Joker, and Riddler, in no specific order. I think that their recognizability carried over to practically all genres, being the first three used in the Batman feature films and being four of the few villians to each get three or more episodes dedicated to them in the animated series. Therefore, overall, including the animated series, I think of BIG as known amongst the populus....significant in terms of people knowing who they are. I'd go with those four. SHow someone a picture of the animated four above, they'll name them all. Show them a picture of ras al ghul or scarecrow, recognition is less likely.
However, I may have been confused in what you were looking for (sorry!). IN terms of degree of significance in the animated series (best villian, basically, for Batman) I'd go in this order:
1)JOKER, bar none
2)Ras al Ghul
3)Two-Face
4)Ivy
5)Freeze
6)Scarecrow
7)All the others. To be frank, Penguin, overall, didn't play much of a serious role or present as much of a threat as the villians above, IMO (my being the operative word).

[Patrick Bateman]

Your misunderstanding me here - The Penguin is not better then Two-Face, but on the same plain.
Ah, I get it. But I still think Two-Face is one step above the likes of Penguin, Riddler, etc.