Batman's popularity is getting me sick. [Archive]

Alph

12-06-2002, 10:27 PM

I mean,he has what,over 100 episodes?A bunch of movies,character appearances on STAS and is a member of the JL,and is a main character in BB.Yet alot of fans still crave MORE batman!Not only that,but because he is so popular,he has because so "perfect",that he never loses,and every time he "seems" to lose,it is just an elaborite sceme.Heck,he never gets beat up,like the other heroes do(and I don't mean"slapped to the floor by some super-powerful demi-god yet he is still able to get back up),and he always wins his fights.People complain that Superman is to powerful,yet he is the one getting beat up,and he is the one with the most "weaknesses" in the JL!Batman is to powerful!A single baterang,or a shot from his grapple hook ALWAYS does the trick!I though Batmans charm was in his limitations,yet lately its like he's the only superhero who ISN'T limited.He is able to dodge blasts and bullets that he shouldn't even be able to see,and he can surive blasts that knock down superman!Don't forget that he was practically the last man on earth to get infected with Aresa's desease,yet Supes was practically the first!

I want to see an episode where bats gets beat up.Not just knocked down only to get up again,he needs to be beaten and bloodied like all the other heros have.His limitations should AFFECT his actions.He shouldn't go around being able to do eerything the others can do and more.Whats the point of him not having powers?He might as well,he's already more "superhuman" than most of the league.

In short,I think Batman should be weakened.The over-biasedness fans have for the character is obviously why he is so "immortal" in every one of his incarnations.Heck,I wouldn't be surprised if Batman is the first one to knock out Darksied in his next appearence(after all the other heroes except get their fair thrashing,of course).Just as Superman is being weakened,it is by the same cause as batman over powerful.Batkman has lost what,to me,has always made him special.His weakness and limitations compared to other heroes-the fact that he was "normal",and had to use his mind.Oh sure,batman uses his mind when nessecary,but only when some quick calculation is needed(like in "metamorpho).Usually it's his superhuman speed and agility and his ever-more high tech weaponry that he uses in battle.He no longer is normal,he is just another super fast/durable/strong/agile hero,exactly like the others,only he has high tech weaponry to go along with it.

Jor-El

12-06-2002, 11:06 PM

I agree with some of what you've said, but not exactly how you've said it. Batman is much too powerful, especially in light of how weak Superman is portrayed.

But man, you just opened a huge debate and the Bat-fans of the Toon Zone forums are going to come and tear you apart. I think that while your claims ring true, you would have been better served to cite some specific examples and instances where Batman has appeared more powerful than he should be. This would at least serve to make you seem less like you just got onto the message board and started ranting. If people are to be angry with you, you should at least be able to be proud of your argument and recognize its validity and solidity.

Sometimes a nitpicker, your post was extraordinarily difficult to read due to the fact that the idea of using the spacebar after a mark of punctuation is completely lost on you.

I happen to think that you'd be best served to go back and elaborate on some of your claims, spending some more time on each individual aspect of the portrayal of Batman that frustrates you. I only make these recommendations in the interest of starting an intelligent, well-informed conversation instead of something that just looks like the bait to start a potentially large, rapidly-spreading flame war. If you go back and fix things up, I'll just delete this post myself and let the conversation continue uninterrupted.

BeastBoyWonder

12-06-2002, 11:09 PM

This is interesting, but might be more well suited for the JL board, seeing as its about Batman as compared to other heroes (such as the Justice League). While the JL Batman seems godlike and infallible (and even the TNBA Bats to some extent), I think that the BTAS Batman accurately depicted his limitations, and gave us some good stories. You raise some good points... especially with the method in which some fans choose to idolize Batman. I also think that the Batman character has taken a downturn since BTAS.

However, the JL Batman has also shown to be mortal, most notably in "Injustice for All" and "A Knight of Shadows" where his weaknesses were accentuated. Don't get me wrong, I obsess over Batman and he and the related characters in the Batman universe are some of my most favorite... but I think that Batman's portrayal on JL would be better if his involvement were decreased (he would actually "stick to the shadows" or whatever), and more focus put on detective work, which would increase the caliber of the stories as well.

I love Batman... and there are many interpretations of the character. The current one seems O.K., I liked the old one better, but I can live with it.

Storm

12-06-2002, 11:17 PM

Alph you make some great points and I have to say this is want I've been trying to say in my "Do we really need another Batman animated series" I mean Batman is too overrated to me. More than 2 cartoons are enough. Lets just stick with the every two year cartoon DTVs for now. I don't agree that Batman should be more weak he is moral and making him more weak in JL would be just stupid cause he's only human but I do see your point about Batman being more stronger than Superman. JL's problem is just the writers. The writers need to make JL more like their comic conterparts look at BOP the cast didn't even have the same traits as their comic counterparts and look how make they got screwed. I think Superman got robbed, Sups is suppose to be the "big man" in the DC Universe just like how Spider-Man is Marvel's major hot property I would expect Superman to get all the treatment that the giant bat is getting. I've never been a big DC fan, yeah I may buy titles like: The Titans, Young Justice, Birds of Prey, Nightwing, and sometimes JLA and Batman but my comic logic on the DC universe is not that good. I'm a Marvel fanboy. So if made a couple of typos in my post please correct me all you DC and Batman fans. Anyway I totally agree with you Alph. Good points indeed. You have guts. ;)

- Storm1288

Patrick Bateman

12-06-2002, 11:52 PM

Okay, I'll try not to lay into you too badly. :D

First off, what does Batman's popularity have to do with him appearing too powerful? :confused: Nothing. The thread should be "The way Batman is portrayed is making me sick".

Batman is so popular because he breaks all the stereotypical rules of being a superhero. No powers, not from a dynasty of heroes, will go about things in an extremely illegal way if neccessary to see that justice is done. He's a rebel WITH a cause. It's not just cool, but damn interesting. I'd go as far as to say he's one of the top 25 fictional characters of all time, but that's just me.

If you hate Batman, more power to you, but you may want to choose where you say so more carefully. ;)

Thundercleese

12-06-2002, 11:57 PM

you would have been better served to cite some specific examples and instances where Batman has appeared more powerful than he should be

How about how he was able to fight with cracked ribs? How about how he can jump 10 feet in the air? What about him dodging bullets? I agree. He seems invincible sometimes.

Clayface

12-07-2002, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Thundercleese
How about how he was able to fight with cracked ribs? How about how he can jump 10 feet in the air? What about him dodging bullets? I agree. He seems invincible sometimes.

Being able to fight with cracked ribs isn't super-human. Having cracked ribs is painful, but you can still move. And he's supposed to be an incredibly well-honed human being - he can take a lot of physical punishment the average man on the street can't. In addition, there's always the adrenaline factor - people have been known to lift cars with broken ribs and bones, simply because they're so hyped up on adrenaline. None of this is super-human. And don't forget, we're talking a cartoon here - there's always a bit of the cartoon physics involved.

I don't really recall any examples of Batman jumping 10 feet in the air, so I can't comment on that.

He doesn't dodge bullets - his enemies are just realy bad shots! :p ;)

BeastBoyWonder

12-07-2002, 12:16 AM

lol yeah!

except i think he was dodging bullets in "never fear", the episode where he was stripped of his fear by the Scarecrow's unfear gas or whatever.

sKorpia

12-07-2002, 12:28 AM

Well, I agree . . . to some extent. I've always wanted to see more of the detective side to Bats because that's what I fell in love with first. In the BTAS series, we actually get to see him do a little bit of sleuthing. Everyone knows that he's physically honed but it seems that the world of animation and live action seem to forget that he is also a highly sophisticated, well-read, intelligent guy. It's for these reasons that I wish they'd go back to mob bosses and crime lords instead of the Rogues Gallery (much as everybody likes the Rogues) since I suspect it would be easier to inject the humanity and intelligence present in the Bats. Unless of course they do a kick-ass Two-Face or Freeze story that focuses more on the psychosis of the villain and how that psychosis expresses itself in the villain's personality and choice of criminal activities. Hrm, that could be cool.

I'm nowhere near as upset as Alph apparently is but I do wish they'd move the spectrum back a little so there's an equilibrium between brain and brawn. Bring back "The Detective"!

On a sidenote, Barry Allen is absolutely right. While grammar and punctuation seem like a dreadful waste of time, they actually help you to communicate more effectively. It also makes the argument seem more mature which, in turn, creates more open-mindedness in the reader. (In other words, a reader won't simply dismiss the argument because its form looks disorganized and erratic.)

TheScarecrow

12-07-2002, 12:50 AM

Does Alph even know what he is talking about? I thought he was going to comment on Bat's popularity, but then went on a rant about how he is too powerful. Huh? Come again? What does one have to do with the other?

Oh, and Batman is popular because he has abilities that we all wish we could have, plus cool weapons and vehicles, a costume with a great color scheme, a cool Rogues Gallery and a host of "normal" villains like crime lords and mob bosses, a cool supporting cast, etc.

If you have a problem with his popularity Alph, I am sorry, but the character deserves every bit of it and more.

Patrick Bateman

12-07-2002, 01:06 AM

If you have a problem with his popularity Alph, I am sorry, but the character deserves every bit of it and more.
I agree. And I'd also like to add that at the moment, he is (sadly) far less popular than all of those flavors of the month (Yugeeow or whatever the hell it's called, Pokemon, etc.). But Batman actually has staying power. He's been around for nearly 64 years. If something that old is so poular, that's nothing short of awesome.

Starflyer 58

12-07-2002, 01:07 AM

Well, I have what I call a selective fandom, so stuff like this doesn't bother me. I have my own Batman-world and whenever I read/see something that relates to it, I am happy and satisfied; when I see something that doesn't, I just ignore it. It's much easier to me than worrying over continuity or the recent God-like status Batman has been elevated to. Which I can certainly understand others being upset about. It defeats his whole concept...

The real Batman, IMO - "my" Batman I guess - DOES get beaten. But what makes him, in a sense, "invincible" and so darned cool is that no matter how many times he is beaten, he doesn't give up. It's all about his resolve. You can bloody him up or bruise him physically as much as you'd like, even psychologically at times (though he rarely shows the latter, I think old Wayne in Batman Beyond portrays just how much his scarred psyche has worn on him over the years), but his will is like steel. He either ignores his pain or takes it out on his war against criminals. ("I know pain. Sometimes I share it. With someone like you." - from Year One)

"Sooner or later, I'll go down. It might be the Joker, or Two-Face, or just some punk who gets lucky. My decision. No regrets. But I can't let anyone else pay for my mistakes." - BTAS

So I guess my point is, don't let supposed "popularity" or off portrayls get you distressed, just dwell on the coolness that is the core of the character, and that is rampant if you look in the right places. :)

I hope I made some sense in that ramble. :p

TimTwoFace

12-07-2002, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by ragingdrummerboy
This is interesting, but might be more well suited for the JL board, seeing as its about Batman as compared to other heroes (such as the Justice League). While the JL Batman seems godlike and infallible (and even the TNBA Bats to some extent), I think that the BTAS Batman accurately depicted his limitations, and gave us some good stories. You raise some good points... especially with the method in which some fans choose to idolize Batman. I also think that the Batman character has taken a downturn since BTAS.

And this sums up my feelings completely. I like Batman more than any other hero because he is very formidable, and hell-bent on making society better; even so, he's still flawed. BTAS proved that with every outing that he's just a human being with human limitations and human feelings.

The TNBA Batman was colder but still had limitations. I haven't seen much of the JL eps, but I hear he's treated like a guy that can do anything if he can use his brain. That's taking it too far, and I agree, making him appear invincible doesn't make me like him any more.

-Tim

Reed Richards

12-07-2002, 01:48 AM

Alph-

you've made some great points, and I see where you are going with the whole popularity thing-- its like the writers, sensing Batman to be the more popular character (at least with the more dedicated animated fanbase) look to apease the fans at every opportunity, and are always mindful (perhaps overly so) of making Superman appear too powerful.

i LOVE batman as a great detective-- that is the #1 reason I like his character. I have no desire to see him take shots from cannons that level superman but he [batman] gets right back up from. A little balance is needed and I hope season 2 strikes it.

GOOD examples of the many uses of The Batman:

1. Fighting Luthor's giant robot in Legends (Superman made the hole, the Batman took the skilled shot-- very well done)

2. A Knight in Shadows (I felt overall he was well used in that episode)

BAD examples of the many uses of The Batman:

1. I4A (good idea, bad implementation)
2. Fury (taking down the whole troop like that just didn't quite jive with me-- esp. when Aresia owned him-- at least be consistent)

Barb Gordon

12-07-2002, 01:50 AM

he's far from invincible, even if he has no superhuman powers. He's just the ultimate athlete. Some of the things they have him do may seem a bit farfetched, but when you think about it, it is possible. Sure we may not be able to jump, flip, kick, dodge bullets and fight with broken ribs--but it is possible. At times he probably does seem a bit too perfect if anything inthe the cartoons. But they're cartoons, that's what makes them fun. My goodness, in the comics he's gotten the snot beat out lf him lots of times. Come on, he had his back broken! Not exactly all powerful there now was he?

~Barb

Jade_GL

12-07-2002, 02:10 AM

Yeah, but the Knightfall didn't happen in the cartoons did it?

Batman has been progressively portryaed as better than he actually is, in both cartoons and comics. The biggest offender in Frank Miller, who always makes Bat's beat the ever -living crud out of Superman, almost with no reason. Read DK2 and answer me why the scene of Superman getting beaten was necessary. It happend in the original story, it just seemed rehashed.

This is what I believe I am feeling now. Batman-backlash. He is an awesome character, but he does things that surpass even what they set out for him to be able to do in the original animated series. He survived with the man-killing virus longer than Superman in Furies, which I believe is an example, as well as his "oh, I could have escaped any time" lie in Injustice for All. Not only is he powerful, but he winks at us and says "Gee, ain't I better than everyone else on this show." That's what irks me a bit. That, is of course, how they write the script, so I can't balme it on the character. I don't dislike Bats, I just hate how they are making him to borrow a term from Triple H, the Game" in tons of episodes.

I just want to see other people solve whats happening.

I also agree with this line of thought in past JLA comics. He is always made the guy who does what the others cannot. He figured out the problem in the Queen of Fables story arc, even when he was not on the team. Darn it, he's that good! I guess.....

I agree that he is made to do many things. I don't want them to take away from the character, just spreaqd the wealth. They did this well in episodes like The Savage Time. (Almost no Batman in the 3 episodes.... a nice repose....)

SO, I completely understand where everyone is coming from. I think they make him awesome because they know he has ahuge fanbase supported by at least 4 prior series. Does that make it right? Time will tell.

maxnugget

12-07-2002, 02:11 AM

I agree with a lot of what Alph said. I don't think his popularity is relevant to the discussion of his portrayal in JL, though. And, for the record, I think Superman and STAS was an awesome series and there are episodes of STAS that prove beyond any measure of doubt that Superman can be just as entertaining and engaging as any BTAS episode. Having said that...

I think the point Alpha made that I really do agree with, as it relates to JL, is that the very fact that Batman is presented similarly in certain situations to other heroes in the show creates the sense that A) Batman somehow seems superior to the other JL members, and B) in such a portrayal, the attributes that make Batman so great are lost. To elaborate, take, for example, a scene in which the JL are fighting some powerful villain. The villain hits Superman or Wonder Woman and knocks them out. Then, that same villain hits Batman and knocks him out (by "knocks out" I mean they are incapacitated for a brief period of time within the fight scene). Now, one way to look at that is, if the villain's attack was strong enough to knock out Superman or Wonder Woman temporarily, it would seem logical that the same attack, administered on Batman, should do significantly more damage since he is human. By showing the attack to have a similar effect on both a demi-god like Superman and a mortal human like Batman, it ruins the contrast. Batman is human, but he can somehow withstand the same attack that incapacitates a demi-god like Superman?

Batman is an intriguing character because he's forced to use his superior mental acuity to accomplish things that an ordinary human could not (the biggest of these accomplishments being the fact that he survives night after night of being the Dark Knight in Gotham). Thus, the mere notion of him brawling with ultra-powerful JL heroes against non-human supervillains in a battle royale is completely ludicrous. Batman can put up one helluva fight, but that doesn't mean he jumps into brute force melees against alien invaders and Morgan LeFaye. Even in his own element, in Gotham, against other MORTAL, HUMAN foes like the Joker, Two Face, or Rupert Thorne's gang, Batman relies on strategy. He doesn't just burst open the doors to their hideouts and beat the crap out of everyone, because HE CAN'T! This is what I think people find disheartening about the Justice Leage incarnation of Batman.

On the other hand, many episodes of JL do at least attempt to highlight the fact that Batman is human. How many times have we seen him throw a batarang at a villain, only to have it shown as a wasted effort? (he throws one at Morgan LeFaye that she trivially deflects, for instance).

I think what's equally aggravating is when the writers make an extremely obvious attempt to counteract all of this and try to emphasize Batman's mental prowess. Like in The Enemy Below, when Batman is the only one who realizes that Aquaman needs to be in water to survive, or in part 3 of Secret Origins at the end, etc.

Of course, finding good stuff for Batman to do in every JL episode would be pretty tough I'd imagine.

AceOfKnaves

12-07-2002, 04:59 AM

I tend to agree with only one or two things that have been said in the negative for Batman. But most of the other talk is strictly opinion, not fact, and to a lot of the posters on this board, it's not true. (Except for the whole, Batman beating Superman thing, I love Batman, but it would never happen, not unless he cheated and used Kryptonite.)

I won't comment so much on Justice League, though the few episodes I've seen, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary aside from his new look. (This thread isn't about that, so I won't talk about it. :p )

Batman has been beaten on many occasions, and if you, ALPH, wanted to bring up Batman Beyond, perchance did you not see the flashback scene of ROTJ? He gets stabbed and beaten.... Bleeds for crying out loud! As he does in "Mad Love".
He gets beat on in a lot of the animated series episodes, just because he doesn't DIE, doesn't make him a bad character. He just keeps trying, and that's why he's wonderful in many people's eyes.

As was said before by Barb, this is JUST A CARTOON...it's not real, so making comparisons like this is sort of silly. He dodges bullets because he's animated, he fights with injuries because the writers tell the animators and voice actors to make it so. It's all just a show, that really should just be for entertainment purposes.

If it's human Bats you want, I suggest you watch B:TAS, and not JL, because you most likely won't find it anywhere else. :p

~Selena Kyle~

BTW...do you think it wise to post something that trash talks a character that's in the title of the board? ;) J/K, all subject is welcome, even if it is offensive. :D

BLACKHEART

12-07-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by storm1288
[B] I've never been a big DC fan, yeah I may buy titles like: The Titans, Young Justice, Birds of Prey, Nightwing, and sometimes JLA and Batman

If he is so overrated then why are you buying his comic? Batman is the greatest super hero of all time. You can have your mutants and they can use all the super powers they need to beat a bad guy, Batman will just study them in his little cave and defeat them with his brain. Batman is the most realastic superhero. I've been bit by spiders and I can't climb on walls. I personally wish Teen Titans and the other shows will crash and burn paving the way for the superior Batman to rise and reclaim his animated domain.

BeastBoyWonder

12-07-2002, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Starflyer 58
Well, I have what I call a selective fandom, so stuff like this doesn't bother me. I have my own Batman-world and whenever I read/see something that relates to it, I am happy and satisfied; when I see something that doesn't, I just ignore it. It's much easier to me than worrying over continuity or the recent God-like status Batman has been elevated to. Which I can certainly understand others being upset about. It defeats his whole concept...

The real Batman, IMO - "my" Batman I guess - DOES get beaten. But what makes him, in a sense, "invincible" and so darned cool is that no matter how many times he is beaten, he doesn't give up. It's all about his resolve. You can bloody him up or bruise him physically as much as you'd like, even psychologically at times (though he rarely shows the latter, I think old Wayne in Batman Beyond portrays just how much his scarred psyche has worn on him over the years), but his will is like steel. He either ignores his pain or takes it out on his war against criminals. ("I know pain. Sometimes I share it. With someone like you." - from Year One)

"Sooner or later, I'll go down. It might be the Joker, or Two-Face, or just some punk who gets lucky. My decision. No regrets. But I can't let anyone else pay for my mistakes." - BTAS

So I guess my point is, don't let supposed "popularity" or off portrayls get you distressed, just dwell on the coolness that is the core of the character, and that is rampant if you look in the right places. :)

I hope I made some sense in that ramble. :p

I agree with the appeal of Batman being about his resolve. That's like his defining element, the fact that he never gives up... the stubborness that he formed as a result of his parents' death. That's why I love Batman... because in his own way, he has taught me that once I set a goal, I should remain focused and never give up. His goal might be different than mine, but he's still a normal human being trying to achieve his goals, which is something that I can personally relate to more than being the last remaining member of my species (although Superman, J'onn, Lobo etc are cool in their own right).

I liked the way Batman was in BTAS, and to a lesser extent in TNBA. However, I think the Batman on JL doesn't really feel like the same character as the BTAS and TNBA Batmen. I agree with the statement that they have him simply fighting with the other members rather than relying more on his intellect and strategical abilities. When they do use his "intellect", its usually not detective work but some magical technological or scientific solution that he comes up with.

Alph

12-07-2002, 11:19 AM

Quote-"I've been bit by spiders and I can't climb on walls."

Have you simply "trained" all your life and been able to dodge bullets and survive blasts from superpowerful demi-gods?Obviously,powers aren't nessecary! All you need is to train and you can beat the bad guys. Yeah.

But really,I'm sorry my earlier post seemed rushed,but that's because it was.Anyway,I think batman's near invincibility lately IS related to his popularity. Like other people have mentioned,batman from the early BTAS wasn't as "godlike", I mean,it was later in TNAB that he could dodge bullets, and fight demons and wizards and what-not. Then in Justice League,well,you have a batman that takes out solomon Grundy. Nuff said.

Basically,Batman's "power" is increasing with his popularity. In BTAS, he was still new, thus less popular,so instead of making him fight anyone with *real* power(besides clayface)he generally fought normal humans who ALSO had to use there minds to beat him, so it was more of a "battle of wits", against joker, riddler, two-face, and all the others.

Batman was made to fight pshycopaths,and lunatics,most with no real powers. Superman was made to duel it out with the power-houses of the universe! While putting these to together CAN work(like "worlds finest"),that was a rare case,and worked only because Kryptonite was invloved.But Mostly,the bats just doesn't work well with others.Not just because of his seclusive personality,but because the types of baddies he fights best are completely different than what others face.

Notice How Batman's arch-Villain is Joker, a mad-psychopathic clown genious, while Superman's Arch-villain is Darksied, a Superpowerful god-like alien. Those are the kinds of villains they fight best against,not swapped around and mish-mashed together. Superman for all out beatemup brawls, and batman for complex mysteries and thought-out schemes. Having batman defeat uber-powerful baddies with the "gadget of the week", just isn't batman. Batman is the guy who beat the riddler by hiding in a safe,then later not telling him how he excaped the explosion. Or when he turns Jokers own traps against him. Or when he beat Scarface and the Ventriliquist by throwing his own voice. That's Batman. Batman going all kung-fu on a bunch of magically concieved zombies...and winning?That's not batman.Just a batman-fanboy glory scene.

BLACKHEART

12-07-2002, 11:32 AM

You realize the Joker can take down Superman right? Even in your great animated world it was Batman that saved Superman in World's Finest. If we really want to talk about the Joker vs. Superman then I suggest you get the Superman/Joker story from a couple of years ago. Or to demonstrate the onslaught of the Joker, check out Last Laugh and see how he rocked the entire world. However the Joker/Superman Emperor Joker story is much better.

I wouldn't put the Joker as "ordinary" any day. And other than one episode in the cartoon, when has Superman ever beat Darkseid. I like how you make it seem as if Superman beats him up on a weekly schedule.

You do know about Batman's training right? There's a reason he does "kung-fu"

I really don't see how there is so much Batman hate going down on this board right now.

Alph

12-07-2002, 11:42 AM

DKstormyknight

12-07-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by SLIPKNOT
If he is so overrated then why are you buying his comic? Batman is the greatest super hero of all time. You can have your mutants and they can use all the super powers they need to beat a bad guy, Batman will just study them in his little cave and defeat them with his brain. Batman is the most realastic superhero. I've been bit by spiders and I can't climb on walls. I personally wish Teen Titans and the other shows will crash and burn paving the way for the superior Batman to rise and reclaim his animated domain. What you said! :)

:cool:

Storm

12-07-2002, 11:51 AM

Storm

12-07-2002, 12:02 PM

I personally wish Teen Titans and the other shows will crash and burn paving the way for the superior Batman to rise and reclaim his animated domain.

OMG!!!! It's like you think Batman is God. How can you jugde a cartoon without even seeing it???? Listen Batman is cool and all but saying stuff like:

"Teen Titans and the other shows will crash and burn paving the way for the superior Batman to rise and reclaim his animated domain"

Really makes me think if some Batman fans have taken it overboard with their fandom.

Just a thought.

BLACKHEART

12-07-2002, 12:06 PM

Other than Legacy tell me one time that Superman has defeated Darkseid? If you want to talk just about the cartoon, I don't really consider an alien army chasing Darkseid out of Earth because of a treaty a victory for Superman. I call it, "Saving his butt"

"Why do I but Batman now???? Cause I like the new storyline and before you twist up my words again I think Batman in cartoons is overrated. Anyway what is this day "SLIPKNOT pick on Storm1288 cause he's not a big Batman fan day"?????"

Poor Storm do you really think I'm picking on you my friend? You just happen to be in the wrong place every time I open a thread. . You know I've helped you in the past when no one would respond to you and your questions.

Don't look at this as me picking on you, look at this as us having a difference of opinion. I asked you a question. I didn't bully you. As mentioned in other threads, pubic forum, different people, different views, that's all.

I didn't twist anything Storm. In one sentence you said Batman is overrated and in the next you told us how you were buying his comic. As I mentioned in the other thread clarity is your friend. It's better to go into detail instead of leaving sound bites that people can "twist" as you say.

The Detective

12-07-2002, 02:52 PM

Okay it's gonna be hard for me to keep calm on this because I love Batman so much. I also think that there needs to be some clarity on this thread. First of all, Batman does not dodge bullets, his villians are bad shots:D When they shoot at him he weaves back and forth so they don't have a stationary target. I also think I need to mention something else, his parents were murdered when he was eight. From that moment on he vowed to train himself so he could avenge their murder. So he's trained for 15+ years. With that kind of training of course he can do things you can't. And I think one reason he's so popular is because he's relatible. I mean no one will ever get covered in chemicals and gain superspeed, but it is possible that that some one could train to be like Batman. And to borrow a line from the Batman Beyond episode "The Terrible Trio"
Batman: But you're a hero!"
Clay thing: "No, I'm an accident, heroes make a choice, I never did.
That's just it, Batman didn't accidently get zapped with a utility belt, Batman made a choice to be the best he can be, and that's why I like him so much.

maxnugget

12-07-2002, 02:56 PM

This discussion would be much more constructive if everyone would simply debate the opinions other people have rather than the people who have those opinions. I'm sure none of us have friends whose opinions are identical to our own on every issue. There's no need to take things personally, and there's no need for everyone to agree on everything and have the same opinion at the end of a discussion. We're all on this forum because we have an appreciation for Batman/Superman/JL/et al.

Additionally, if you are insulting/attacking a person in the process of arguing your opinions, you're not likely to make your point, even if it is a good one.

[This post is not directed at anyone specifically. I just get frustrated when a discussion with a lot of potential for insightful comments is derailed because people let their emotions get the better of them. Just because someone comes on here and says something that goes against what everyone else thinks, we don't need to attack them for it. The fact that an opinion is in the minority does not make it any less valid and worthwhile than the opinion the majority has.]

oranthal

12-07-2002, 04:41 PM

then, by all means, please throw up.

AceOfKnaves

12-07-2002, 06:58 PM

Oh people please, stop to think of what you're arguing about! It's a bunch of ink and lines! IT'S NOT REAL...

It seems to me that it's not just the Batfans that are taking fandom or anything else too seriously, but others that seem only to want to lower the image of something that doesn't exist.

May I remind you that shows are meant strictly to make you laugh, get you involved and simply, as said, to entertain. Perhaps some of us should take a step back, and realize that all these characters are fictional and are supposed to be for fun only. Not to have HUGE heated discussions about.

Though I disagree with almost EVERYTHING Alph has said, it doesn't matter to me, and it really shouldn't matter to anyone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and that doesn't make them wrong or right, it makes them "Mortal." :p :)

Steven C

12-07-2002, 07:07 PM

When did I say I hate batman?It seems you are a little to touchy one the subject.

And Joker in world finest,well,he used Kryptonite for one.That's why I said that was a rare case where that team-up worked.

And where did I imply Superman Beat up darksied regularly?In fact,Superman Got beat up by darksied way more.Still,in the end,It was Superman who SURPASSED Darksied.To bad they turned him into a weakling wuss in JL.

And joker anything but normal?Well that's what he should be.His JL appearence basically fanboy-glorified him just like every episode that batman is in JL.In BTAS he uses tricks and well thought out schemes to cause mischief and try to beat batman.In JL,he turned into "the guy with gadgets,only on the bad side".

I like batman as much as anybody.But I also realise that Batman stories are most entertaining when he's pitted against other normal beings.

Alph, you're not gonna win this one. Im a huge Batman fan too. I like the cartoons better than the comics, but I could care less if they made 10 other Batman cartoons ( I'll still watch them), they killed him (its just a comic anyways), weakened him, made him gay.........whatever.

Just read my "anti BoP" posts. People will argue to their faces turn blue. Just prove your point and move on. Stuff like this makes these boards so fun.

maxnugget

12-07-2002, 07:31 PM

Like SelenaKyle said. Batman, in any form, is a creative endeavor, an artistic creation founded on the opinions of all those who have created Batman comics, TV shows, movies, etc. Even if everyone agreed on something related to Batman, that doesn't make it "right." There is no right or wrong interpretation of things. If I think that the werewolf from "Moon of the Wolf" is the greatest Batman villain of all time, no one can "prove that I'm wrong" (or right). They can disagree, and that's fine. A person who loves the werewolf character can coexist with a person who loves Farmer Brown. The point is, they don't need to agree.

The reason we have these discussions is because it's interesting to learn what other people's opinions are on a topic, and to see how others interpret it. And people might change their opinion, if they find that someone else has brought up a good point or has some insight that they find valuable. The purpose is not to arrive at a singular opinion among the participants in the discussion, and it's also not to "educate" those that have an opinion that differs from yours. There is no right or wrong. Your opinion is just as "right" and valid as the next person. Your opinion is also just as "wrong" and invalid as the next person.

Can we try to get this discussion back on track please? I think there's some things brought up in this thread worth discussing. Tonight's BTAS episode, "Birds of a Feather," for example, is a very human-driven episode.

Batman-Dark Knight

12-07-2002, 07:34 PM

Aresa gassed Superman with the desease right in the face!
Batman came much later, and in a few minutes caught it.
Just want to let you know.

Drachentöter

12-07-2002, 07:57 PM

Maxnugget is right, fanatical emotions and overprotectiveness can get in the way of insightful comments. Though it's okay to feel somewhat indignant that a respected character is being dissed, it's not reason to consider it a personal insult.

Alph, I think what you said is vaild but I disagree in the manner you said it. Sounds a bit too confrontational. If you don't hate Batman, it's a good idea to make sure you don't sound like you do. Especially on a Batman fan board. :D

Again, your points are valid, but personally I don't agree with them. I don't have a problem with Batman taking on the supernatural and doing phenomenal stuff. He's not an ordinary human. He's THE Batman. He's trained years to get where he is today, he's been granted intuition that few can rival, and he's Courageous with a capital "C."

You can't have a Justice League without Batman. He deserves a spot there. And what good would a perpetually wounded Batman do to a show that as of right now deals with stories one at a time, rather than piling one on top of another?

Maybe he should be toned down a bit. But let's not make him the weakling. No one should be the weakling. Maybe it's because Superman seems so lackluster now that people start pointing fingers, but Batman does not deserve it. He's already been poisoned, diseased, kidnapped, and altered by fluctuations in the space/time continuum. Let's leave Batman be.

BeastBoyWonder

12-07-2002, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by maxnugget
Like SelenaKyle said. Batman, in any form, is a creative endeavor, an artistic creation founded on the opinions of all those who have created Batman comics, TV shows, movies, etc. Even if everyone agreed on something related to Batman, that doesn't make it "right." There is no right or wrong interpretation of things. If I think that the werewolf from "Moon of the Wolf" is the greatest Batman villain of all time, no one can "prove that I'm wrong" (or right). They can disagree, and that's fine. A person who loves the werewolf character can coexist with a person who loves Farmer Brown. The point is, they don't need to agree.

The reason we have these discussions is because it's interesting to learn what other people's opinions are on a topic, and to see how others interpret it. And people might change their opinion, if they find that someone else has brought up a good point or has some insight that they find valuable. The purpose is not to arrive at a singular opinion among the participants in the discussion, and it's also not to "educate" those that have an opinion that differs from yours. There is no right or wrong. Your opinion is just as "right" and valid as the next person. Your opinion is also just as "wrong" and invalid as the next person.

Can we try to get this discussion back on track please? I think there's some things brought up in this thread worth discussing. Tonight's BTAS episode, "Birds of a Feather," for example, is a very human-driven episode.

Very well put... I agree with pretty much every word you said.

The Detective

12-07-2002, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Batman-Dark Knight
Aresa gassed Superman with the desease right in the face!
Batman came much later, and in a few minutes caught it.
Just want to let you know.
I was going to make the same point but you beat me to it. And Batman was in the Batplane flying over Themiscyia(I know I didn't spell that right) so he wasn't exposed till he got back.

murmur

12-07-2002, 10:46 PM

JOKESONU

12-08-2002, 01:03 AM

In the original BTAS the whole mortal aspect was done very well.
They couldn't go as far as breaking his back but he's had his share of pain.

In the ep where we see Robins past (Robins Reconing) he get shot.

In another ep with the penguin, he went blind temporarily. Yet he wouldn't even let that stop him and he sought every possiable cure and alternative (Was a great ep by the way)

And lets not forget the numerous times he's knocked unconcious.

The BTAS Bat was far from invinviable, he was just so determined he overcame every obstacle.

Even the comic bat isn't invinciable (Depending on the writer)

Look at the knightfall Saga when his back was broken by bane in an issue long one sided fight.

And just recently in Batman #608 & #609. When chasing cat woman someone cuts his bat rope and he falls, and is messed up so bad even alfred can't mend him. he ends up calling in one of the best brain surgeons in the world to help bruce with a nasty skull fracture.

The huntress even said he felt broken.

And in TNBA, it wasn't really batman, but with all the rooftop chasing and jumping done by all members of the bat family, Batgirls death could have easily happened to any of them even bats. Maybe a little ice, and wham. dead.

I agree thought that in JL he is seemingly more powerful then sups, but it was played on real well.

Anarky

12-08-2002, 02:20 AM

I don't know why everyone is dissing on JL Superman. He's the same character he was on STAS. The same things that hurt him on JL, hurt him in STAS. Monsters and aliens still smacked him around. He still got blasted by missiles and laser beams. You speak as if he went from Champ to Chump overnight. He's the same then as he is now. Maybe you're just blaming the voice.

Sinestro beat him up pretty good.
Karkull put a huritng on him.
Weather Wizard put the pain on him.
LOBO more than held his won.
The Preserver smacked him around like a whiffle ball.
Luminous gave him a good fight.

The reason I liked STAS was because Superman wasn't the Immoveable Object I feared they'd make him. He got his share of punishment, physically and mentally.

I liked that things didn't happen easily for him, otherwise (YAWN)

As far as him being powered down and the Bat powered up: ABSURD!!! Everyone is getting just treatment on the show so far, particulalrly the Bat: he provides the funds, the technology, and he's the tactitian.

Make no mistake: Superman is still the most powerful member of JL, followed by J'onn & Diana. Then GL, Hawkgirl, & The Flash, followed by the Bat. My only concern about JL was how would the Bat keep up with the others but he's proven he can more than handle his own. He's repected by the League.

All the characters are cool in their own way

Supes is the de facto leader. He's truly powerful, yet he exercises restraint (clearly because of Legacy). He can take a beating and reciprocate

The Bat is the Bat
GL has his hard-nosed, Marine attitude
Flash has his humor
Hawkgirl has her ferocity
J'onn has all those abilities
and Diana has her innocent nature

I love the team dynamic. And as the show grows, so will the characters and their interaction.

I'm amazed people are getting so exciteable about this.
We're lucky to have amazing programs like BTAS, STAS, BB, & JL.

Drachentöter

12-08-2002, 08:52 AM

Anarky, you make a lot of sense. From what I've seen of STAS, Supes ain't all that different when you look at him alone.

The problem is his co-stars. When placed in that situation, Superman has to establish himself as the most powerful, lest someone else grab the title of leader. (Though technically there is none, nobody elected him/named him leader.) So, in comparison with his co-stars, he's just not SUPERman.

Part of it is the fact that he's invulnerable. He gets the worst shocks, blasts, and punches because he's the only one who can withstand it. But then we see Hawkgirl take out the enemy with her power mace and go...wha?... :confused:

Batman's vulnerable enough. He hasn't suffered nearly as enough as Superman, but that's because if he did, THERE WOULD BE NO MORE BATMAN. Surely, nobody wants that.

sKorpia

12-08-2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Alph
Basically,Batman's "power" is increasing with his popularity. In BTAS, he was still new, thus less popular,so instead of making him fight anyone with *real* power(besides clayface)he generally fought normal humans who ALSO had to use there minds to beat him, so it was more of a "battle of wits", against joker, riddler, two-face, and all the others.

There's a flaw here and it's based on an assumption. You assume that Batman was "new" in BTAS and that newness inherently confers minimal popularity. Now, for a character that's been around for the past 60 or so years, I wouldn't say that BTAS made Batman new. In fact, didn't they do the series in response to the positive feedback from Tim Burton's Batman, which was considerably darker than what people had become accustomed to in the realm of movie and TV? And although I can't confirm this, having never read any of Bob Kane's original comic books, I did hear that the so-called "new and darker" version of Bats was actually coming around full circle to how the character had originally been portrayed.

As for the correlation between newness and popularity, it's a sketchy correlation to make. Many phenomenons have been overnight hits only to fade into the darkness. (Calling all one-hit wonders.) And again, I have to cite the longevity of the character. Batman's been popular for a while and that pre-existing fan base would bring a fair amount of popularity to a show. Recall, the premier of Smallville grossed the highest viewer ratings for a show premier on WB ever and Smallville was "new". I also think that the advent of the Internet has something to do with the perceived increase in popularity of Batman and superheroes in general. Now fans have a global forum where they can share their mutual love of a character. Without the Internet, I would have hardly anybody to talk to about my love of Batman, except for Twilight but then again, I met her through the Internet too.

As for Batman fighting mere mortals as opposed to villains with "real power", the Batman mythos isn't about the brawn for me and the villains don't need to be mortal. What they need is a psychosis and that's what makes Batman work. These villains aren't power-mad like Darkseid or punks with spacebikes like Lobo. They have internal conflict and messed up histories. Heh, I think I understand Harley a bit more now. There's a certain romanticism about psychopaths . . . :p

Alph

12-10-2002, 04:01 PM

Quote-"There's a flaw here and it's based on an assumption. You assume that Batman was "new" in BTAS and that newness inherently confers minimal popularity. Now, for a character that's been around for the past 60 or so years, I wouldn't say that BTAS made Batman new. In fact, didn't they do the series in response to the positive feedback from Tim Burton's Batman, which was considerably darker than what people had become accustomed to in the realm of movie and TV? And although I can't confirm this, having never read any of Bob Kane's original comic books, I did hear that the so-called "new and darker" version of Bats was actually coming around full circle to how the character had originally been portrayed"

Yeah,but before BTAS batman,you had "adam west" batman,and "superfriends" batman.This new,darker,more powerful take on batman became popular,so of course they followed suit by making him MORE DARK and MORE POWERFUL.

That's another thing,batman seems to be loosing his "humanness".Maybe it's because he isn't really portrayed as much as Bruce anymore,but even when he is Bruce in TNBA,he loses that "friendly" vibe,that makes you feel like you can relate to him,and he becomes this dark,emotionless...guy.Basically,his "batman" personality takes over,and his relatable "bruce waine" personality fades away.

On the other hand,Superman IS Clark kent,that IS his personality.He doesn't have a "fake" personality,and his personality is far more relatable than Batman's.When Superman loses the trust of all the people,like the doctor,and even Supergirl,when you see his expressions you can't actually FEEL for him.

Clayface

12-10-2002, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Alph

Yeah,but before BTAS batman,you had "adam west" batman,and "superfriends" batman.This new,darker,more powerful take on batman became popular,so of course they followed suit by making him MORE DARK and MORE POWERFUL.

You also had the first Batman movie before B:TAS. And you had Frank Miller's Batman as well.

That's another thing,batman seems to be loosing his "humanness".Maybe it's because he isn't really portrayed as much as Bruce anymore,but even when he is Bruce in TNBA,he loses that "friendly" vibe,that makes you feel like you can relate to him,and he becomes this dark,emotionless...guy.Basically,his "batman" personality takes over,and his relatable "bruce waine" personality fades away.

The way Bruce was portrayed in TNBA was one of the things I had a big problem with. There was just no distinction between the Bruce personality and the Batman personality, and that bugged me.