WARNING: Reading Too Much Manga Can Ruin the American Comic Experience....

[JohnCrichton]

Alright, I started getting back in to comics to read Transformers.

While in there I saw manga that was suggest by and influeced by MegaTokyo.Com. Those being GTO and Love Hina.

Well, I've been reading it so much that I've come to like the black and white format, allowing fo my mind to emote more from the comic I'm reading.

Stories and action you can feel much more powerfully than American art and comics.

I'm not saying American comics suck, but I think it takes a different thought process and enjoyment to enjoy them.

I've read so much Japanese manga, that I find most American action comics unreadable. Unless he writing is Morrison, Enis, or Busiek calibur I can hardly get past a page without frustration. The colors actually feel like they're in the way for me to try and feel the action on the page!

Robotech #0 being the latest example of this.... or does R #0 just suck?

Anyone else ever run into this problem?

[MachSabre]

...I am glad I'm not he only person who feels this way.

If you want a pretty cool action manga to read, may I suggest Orion by Masamune Shirow?

[Marc]

While superheroes are my first love, I have great admiration for Japanese comics. Koike and Kojima's Lone Wolf & Cub is absolutely mind-blowing, and one of the most epic stories I've read in recent memory.

- Cap

[Digu Volz]

B&W or color...

Hm... I'd probably have to say that I enjoy color better, though both work well. Color... is just color. It's vibrant, brings energy, and compliments everything else in the book.

B&W is beautiful in its simplicity and a lack of color can cause more appreciation to the details, bringing more power to the more dramatic scenes.

As far as comics and manga goes, well, I don't really see a difference in the writing styles, though I'd say there's more quality in manga (of course, god knows how many manga suck, being rarer an' all). I haven't read any single story on either side that would completely overwhelm the best from the other. Good writing is good writing.

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

Hn...I don't know about the writing, but when it comes to art, I'd take a CLAMP story over an American comic any day. The sheer DETAIL put into those ink drawings could have never been done if the art was in color. There's just no way.

[KingKoopa]

It's true. I'll be reading alot more manga now that I got a link to a cool translation site (it doesn't have any liscensed manga on it, am I allowed to post a link to it?), and subscribed to Shonen Jump.

[MachSabre]

Hmmm... I'm looking at the rules here...


We ask that discussion of questionable activities such as infringement of copyrighted materials (ROMs, warez, etc.) be avoided on the forums. Any such references, including images, instructions or links will be immediately removed and may require further action.

Well, if it was up to me, I'd allow it. But even if it's not licensed, it's copyrighted... So it's probably a no.

However, whatever you do via PM or eMail is totally up to you.

[MattL.]

Actually its not the manga diversty in comparrison to american comics that I find frustrating.

As a fa of tokusatsu and anime, I find the Japanese approach to superheros so much more kinetic, dramatic, and *gasp* more daring to have **fun** with it wheras american comics are so off into their realism trip that reading a superhero comic can end up being a rather joyless expereince.

For any toku fans who know, I think Kamen Rider Kuuga handles "realism" in superheroes 1,000 times better than any issue of freakin Ultimates.

[Jade_GL]

Funny, I go the opposite way. I started reading Manga, and now I exclusively read American Comics. Funny.

I enjoy the art, but I have to admit it, it sometimes looks very rushed, especially normal B and W pics. The color paintings and art books drawings are usually gorgeous, but I read Sailor Moon comics for a year about and soo realized that 80% of the pictures were pretty cruddy. You get one astounding pic in them, but the rest seems to be rushed to me. Maybe it's the style, but at least with most American comics, you can tell that the art takes time. With pencils, inking coloring, it's a lot to do. Mainly, I am thinking of the great artwork that the Dodson's do, and Brian Hitch and Alex Ross. Though these are not the norm, I think they far outweigh what is being shown in most of the popular manga in America. Yes B and W is stunning, but so is a page from Alex Ross's work in Marvels, or a panel of Hitch's work in past issues of JLA. In fact, I feel more moved by that art becuase the people look like me, while manga, for the most part, is a more stylized look. Sorry but I react more when it looks like a real human. SM, Tenchi comics, and a few others I've read do not have that edge for me. I know, I probably did not read the right type, which is what most of you will say who support manga, but most manga has a certain look, the eyes, hair, that isn't as realistic. Of course, there are exceptions.

Japanese comics have a lot of variety, but as I find more American comics to read, I realize there is variety on this side of the ocean too. You just have to know whats good. It's not all superheroes. Again, there are many awesome American tales that do not revolve around capes and cowls. I think that aspect of American comics os overlooked, especially in these types of conversations. In fact, most manga I see it my comic book store is woefully similar, either mega girly fare or samuri epics. Maybe if I lived at the source I could get more story variety where I live, but so far, it seems most of what comes my direction is not as interesting nor diverse as the broad range of American comics I try to expose myself too. I think people either selectively ignore what American comics have done for comics worldwide, IE creating comics really, and also selctively ignore the variations in the comics nowadays. I read your normal fare, Green Lantern, Supergirl, JSA, but sit down and read Kingdom Come, The Watchmen, or anything Brian Micheal Bendis has written, and tell me it's not a masterpiece on par with any japanese comic masterpiece mentioned here and I'll eat my #1 issue of Power of Shazam!

Manga is great, but I feel like I have moved on from reading it right now. Sure, I will read it again when I find a dazzling series, but now, for B and W digs, I'll read some work by Brian Micheal Bendis, such as Goldfish or Torso.

[JohnCrichton]

Exactally... you're not reading the right manga. Try picking up Love Hina or GTO or Ragnarok and see how you feel.

In my first post I said that for me to enjoy an American comic, I need an astounding story like Enis, Busiek or Waid right. Alex Ross of course is good.

Still I feel I can emote more from simplicity than the "hard" detail you get in American comics.

Like which do you more draw feeling from? A simple smiley face, or a close up of Superman grinning.

It becomes more an interpretation of what the character on the page is feeling than emotions that you feel with the characters.

Let me just say that I know American comics don't suck. Watchmen, Kingdom Come, Astro City, Preacher... all amazing.

But if I have the choice to read X-Men versus GTO... I'm going to take GTO in a nano second. Or an American produced Robotech over a Macross manga..... I'm going to get the manga.

[Jade_GL]

I was just making the point that a lot of people selectively forget the good variety we have here.

Frankly, I see it all the time in the forums. Whether talking anime or manga. I just don't get it. Manga is a beautiful art form, but I can't say it's better than American comics, especially when I went from Manga to American comics.

Emotion has nothing to do with it for me. I find more emotion in what is written, not drawn. If I do find emotion in what is drawn, I can say that it comes with the look of Captain Marvel at the end of Kingdom Come, not on the face of Sailormoon when she finally beats Metallia. It's just what I see. B and W can be gorgeous, but it;s just lacking at some points. I love color, I was an AP art student for two years. For me, color is important. Especially with emotion, because I find certain combinations of color alone can bring up certain feelings.

I do enjoy some manga, but I also find the price daunting. One small, and I mean small, tome can go for 15 or 20 dollars, while American TPBS, in color, and generally larger can range anywhere, depending on what you get, from a slim 10 dollars (most of my wonder woman trades were this price) to an astounding 50 or 60. Usually cheaper. I think the average now is about 20 dollars. Not only that. but try to find exactly what you like and it's another hard task. I really enjoyed Tenchi comics, but the prices of the Graphic Novels and comics kind of threw me off too.

I just, I don't know, don't think it's better in any particular way. I find I have gotten just as much enjoyment from both types. Each has strong qualities, but I go American. Oh well. :D

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

No. I generally watch more anime than Western toons, but I still prefer American comics over manga, in general. However, I don't purchase American superhero comics very much anymore. Mostly, I get reprints (the Marvel Essentials are prime reading material).

I'm not a shoujo manga fan. I LOVE shoujo anime, generally, but shoujo manga has very abstract layouts that don't do much for me. I prefer the orderly sequence of past American comic artists such as Steve Ditko, and John Romita Sr. Today, I love the Hernandez Brothers' works, and some other rigid narrative storytellers like Steve Dillion, for instance.

The few manga I do like tend to be samurai epics such as Lone Wolf and Cub, and Blade of the Immortal.

Artwise, I don't think one medium is necessarily better than the other. I have come to almost loathe the excessive linework, crosshatching and anatomically ridiculous drawings in superhero comics. Likewise, some manga art seems too flighty and flat with etch-a-sketch backgrounds that don't convey enough atmosphere for me. I feel a lot of manga can do better jobs in taking advantage of the black and white medium. It seems only Osamu Tezuka and Naoki Urasawa have REALLY impressed me with their use of blacks and depth in the black and white format. Personally, I think Urasawa is shamefully unnoticed by American licensers. He's the most accomplished manga cartoonist in Japan, in my opinion.

Still, there are great artists from both manga and western comics.

Emotionally, I can't say one has engaged me more than the other. You just gotta read more variety from both sides. Watchmen, for example, is still one of the best science fiction psychological thriller stories I've ever read in comics. Love and Rockets sometimes provide epic soap operas comparable to any long running manga epic. Conversely, Blade of the Immortal is one of the more affecting samurai series I've read in a while. Maison Ikkoku made me laugh out loud a comic for the first time since I read an Archie comic in 5th grade (hey, it was funny).

If you are disappointed with the present selection of Western comics, you should really consider looking at some reprints of older comics. You may be surprised.

Might I suggest:

Love and Rockets: The Death of Speedy
Love and Rockets: Blood of Palomar
Preacher TPBs
From Hell
V for Vendetta
Amazing Spider-Man Essentials (if you haven't read all the early issues, you should.)
Essential Conan (Really better than you think)
Daredevil Born Again
Batman Year One
Alan Moore's Miracleman (This is terrifying superhero stuff. Good luck finding cheap issues)
Ghost World
David Boring

To name a few...

All of these feature good writing, solid art, and most importantly, COHERENT NARRATIVE. I can't stress how so many artists these days use this abstract panel layout crap (that goes double for shoujo manga) when an average of six panels a page lined up in an orderly manner is all you need to tell a good story. None of this overlapping panels and 1 or 2 huge panels a page stuff for a whole book (I don't mind creativity in moderation, but today's manga and American comics really waste paper when they use 2 panels a page for the WHOLE comic). Give me densely told narratives which don't waste paper and insult my intelligence.

[JustJack]

I have such a high variety of comic's, I never have a problem.

I read some Manga...the different perspective a style is excelent, and I enjoy it quite much. But, that's all it is...a different perspective, a different style. It's another culture, people...I go into reading a manga like anything else, and just learn to appreciate it's little quarks as I would anything else.
I also read your average American comics. Some of our comics feature color, some are B&W. In the end, it's another perspective, another style. It's not like all American artists share the same style, and it's not like all Japanese artists share the same style. Infact, I can confidently say that both sides are mixing it quite well. Some Manga, the artist will usually make a clear note as to various American comics which influenced them. And we all can clearly see a lot of American comics have Japanese Manga influence.

And I'm getting sick of this "She has big eye's! It's Anime style!" crap...think about it....girls constantly have big eye's in almost any art style, throughout history in many cultures. Anywho...

There was a short time when I was reading Inu-Yasha, and ONLY Inu-Yasha...nothing else. After that, X-Men was horribly bland. *shrug* It happens...there was a time when I was reading Spider-Man exclusively, and when I turned to Tenchi, the only thing I actually liked about it was the great number of multiple females present in the comic. Now adays, I can read just about anything, and enjoy it. The thing is to just mix it up, dont stick to one comic for too long. Sure, I've been reading a lot of Hellboy recently...but I do get a healthy dose of Fantastic Four and Bakuretsu Hunters when I get the chance.

[MattL.]

I think for alot of americans its like the dont or wont wrap their brains around an abstraction of the human form for emotional effect unless its a dark gritty abstraction.

I mean, how come people will knock anime for having "big eyes" but no one pics on DKRs old Staypufft Marshmellow Batman?

Its like if the human form is turned into an overshadowed scratchy mess for a Vertigo tile its high art but if someone does anime or cartooning then its insulted.

[Jade_GL]

I think for alot of americans its like the dont or wont wrap their brains around an abstraction of the human form for emotional effect unless its a dark gritty abstraction.

I don't know if it's a case of not being able to wrap my brain around it or not wanting to, it's all art to me. Each has it's own plus and minus/ My point about seeing the stylized forms in manga comics is that sometimes I can't relate as well to it as a panel of Alex Ross work or Hitch art. Sometimes I find a title where it does just as much as the other, most times not. I don't think it's any more abstract or hard to understand, it's just an art form that I have begun to look at in a different way.

As I've said, I've read a few manga where I have found, maybe, 25% of the pictures to be exemplory, but the others are so stylized that they do not look any more abstract, but they do look more rushed. It's like when I used to have to draw pictures for a poetry book in school or something. I would do ten really great pictures, but maybe the other half would not be as good. That's what I feel when I look at Sailormoon comics for one. I see great pictures, but then a few lines and eyes and it just doesn't "do it" for me oon an emotional or impactful level. That's my only point when it comes to that.

I think the main detail that American readers don't like is lack of color. Sure, it's somewhat shallow, but I hear it all the time when I talk to my inside circle of people who read comics. Most enjoy color, and find that going to a B and W media is hard. They don't like it. I think this is more of a reason than saying it's because it's too abstract. I certainly haven't heard that argument from people I know, at least not admitted to.

And, Black and White is only being exposed to people through certain Bat titles (I can't recall which one) that does it's small backup stories in B and W. Also, a few other titles, but I must admit that my knowledge of what comes in B and W is short, outside of manga and Brian Micheal Bendis trades. I think people can accept this more readily beause it's a character that has been around and in American culture for decades. It's also a matter of a characters power and ability to get people to pick up a title and accept the writing, art, coloring, even lettering. Whatever.

I just wish that I could put into words better why I like American comics better right now. I think that some of the best artists ever are working in comics right now, people I have already liberally mentioned, and I think that's why I am so into them, not including fantastic writers that I have found as well. I'm just in that niche right now and I like being there.

Again, I am not dogging manga, that's just what I have heard from people and my own opinions as I can best put them into words.

Oh, and I don't like Gritty art that much either. And DKR never did it for me artwise. It was interesting, but I always thought the power of that book was the writing, not the art. The art added a certain dimension to it, but I think the writing was what made me like that book.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Jade_GL
I don't know if it's a case of not being able to wrap my brain around it or not wanting to, it's all art to me. Each has it's own plus and minus/ My point about seeing the stylized forms in manga comics is that sometimes I can't relate as well to it as a panel of Alex Ross work or Hitch art. Sometimes I find a title where it does just as much as the other, most times not. I don't think it's any more abstract or hard to understand, it's just an art form that I have begun to look at in a different way.


I think the main detail that American readers don't like is lack of color. Sure, it's somewhat shallow, but I hear it all the time when I talk to my inside circle of people who read comics. Most enjoy color, and find that going to a B and W media is hard. They don't like it. I think this is more of a reason than saying it's because it's too abstract. I certainly haven't heard that argument from people I know, at least not admitted to.


I think B and W art is underrated. Just because everyone else doesn't like it, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Some of my favourite AMERICAN comics are black and white. Love and Rockets, From Hell, Ghost World and David Boring...it's kind of like those kiddies these days who can't get into a classic film like Casablanca or film noir like Double Indemnity...

B and W, when used effectively, can be 10x more involving than a comic that's just coloured haphazardly. Can anyone here imagine From Hell in colour? I can't.

As for American art...well, I think most of the good artists are either a: retired b: obscure c: work in independent. Very few competent artists work in mainstream anymore. You mention Hitch art...but someone who's been around knows it's just another variation of Alan Davis art. Alex Ross is wonderful at capturing "realism", on the other hand, there are cases to be made that his stuff looks more like a wax museum rather than something more stylized (like Steve Rude) but more energetic. I personally like Alex Ross art, but I do admit that sometimes his painted art wouldn't work in every comic situation.

Good artists working in the mainstream I can maybe count on one hand--John Romita Jr (Brutish art style, but hands down the best storyteller working in Marvel. There are no confusing layouts in JR. Jr. art), George Perez, Steve Dillon, Alan Davis, Mike Allred and Steve Rude. All these comic artists have distinctive styles that cannot be totally duplicated and all know how to tell a proper story. None of these stupid abstract panel layouts with overlapping pictures and upside down centrefolds.

To me, at least, art is not supposed to pander to our reality, but rather challenge us to involve ourselves into *its* reality. Look at the art Watchmen, or From Hell. Not the most "realistic" art or even the most aesthetically pleasing art out there, but it consistently conveys a mood which draws me into the story. IMO, art should never get too spectacular--it disrupts the flow of the story. Comic art should be interesting and pleasing, but "too pretty" art like Alex Ross' can be distracting to the story.

I agree a lot of manga feels rushed. But the same goes for American comics. Have you picked up any issues of, say, Superman lately? I think people tend to stereotype one side while selectively ignoring the NUMEROUS faults of THEIR side as well. The only way to get over this is to actually do some research on BOTH manga and Western comics, which I understand is something most people don't have the time or patience to do.

There are a lot of great manga out there. I don't like a lot of manga, but I've seen enough to know there are ALSO undoubtedly many out there I haven't seen that would be really good. Same with American comics.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is both good and bad in everything. And often in equal amounts. One can surely be biased towards one side more than the other, but they are also shutting out the possibility that there are probably unknown stuff out there they haven't seen that they might really like. So I am hesitant to proclaim one side's superiority over the other.

[Jade_GL]

I think B and W art is underrated. Just because everyone else doesn't like it, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

I never said that I didn't like B and W, and no one else effects my opinions on the comics I buy or read or what art I will gravitiate towards. I was just saying that I have heard this argument against manga from people I have talked to on the subject. Never said that affected my opinion of manga in the slightest. Frankly, I still will read manga if I find a story I enjoy.


As for American art...well, I think most of the good artists are either a: retired b: obscure c: work in independent.

Matter of opinion. I am very interested in artwork right now by Brian Hitch, Alex Ross, the Dodson's, Adam Hughes, and many more. I think a lot of good work is being doing right now, in the mainstream. Heck, good work is being done everywhere. And, there are just as many artists who I dislike in the mainstream too. I just really enjoy quite a few right now.


I agree a lot of manga feels rushed. But the same goes for American comics. Have you picked up any issues of, say, Superman lately? I think people tend to stereotype one side while selectively ignoring the NUMEROUS faults of THEIR side as well. The only way to get over this is to actually do some research on BOTH manga and Western comics, which I understand is something most people don't have the time or patience to do.

I admit that I have not read as much manga as western comics, but I have read quite a bit more than most people I know. Not only that, but I do take the time to look at different art online whenever I get the chance. I am an art freak. It's what will make me pick up or drop a comic book in a lot of cases. Of course, writing is also important, but I love looking at pictures and the artwork of covers and interior panels. I do know that there are crappy western comics right now. I read JLA, so I know that there are alot of subpar visuals on the market. However, my example was only to illustrate why I didn't see it as and "abstraction" issue, why I did not believe that people just can't get their minds around it. That makes people seem stupid to me. I don't think manga takes any more mind power to understand or follow. I just think that visuals can become lazy looking. Again, I only used one example and did not mean to lump everything into one category. I keep saying that I am only speaking from my experience and conversations with friends and others.


I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is both good and bad in everything. And often in equal amounts. One can surely be biased towards one side more than the other, but they are also shutting out the possibility that there are probably unknown stuff out there they haven't seen that they might really like. So I am hesitant to proclaim one side's superiority over the other.


Just what I said. I never said anything about one being superior, just that what I am into now is this or that. For isntance, just in my last posting I said that both versions have "plus and minuses." Both do, and I fon't think one is better than the other per se, I just like American better now at this point in time.

Like I said at the end of one of my other posts.

"I just, I don't know, don't think it's better in any particular way. I find I have gotten just as much enjoyment from both types. Each has strong qualities, but I go American."

That's all she wrote, and I think I've tried to be fair and balanced to both sides, because I like both sides. I just am into one right now more than the other.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Jade_GL

Matter of opinion. I am very interested in artwork right now by Brian Hitch, Alex Ross, the Dodson's, Adam Hughes, and many more. I think a lot of good work is being doing right now, in the mainstream. Heck, good work is being done everywhere. And, there are just as many artists who I dislike in the mainstream too. I just really enjoy quite a few right now.



I am familiar with them. I think they draw well, but I do not put them at the top of my list because I don't find their storytelling capabilities as effective as some other artists. It is a matter of opinion, but my criteria hinges on the artist's ability to effectively pace and lay out the writer's story for maximum effect and narrative coherence. I'm not into pretty pictures with stupid panel layouts that make no sense (a common feature of shoujo manga and Marvel/DC comics). I think your choices above are great artists but serviceable storytellers, and sometimes I find their sense of pacing, such as Hughes' or Hitch's, rather uneven. I think they rely too much on pretty drawings sometimes rather than sequential art.

[Dee]

I adore color comics because they are lively and indeed they are a form of artwork.

BUT... my roots of fandom lead me to the original Men In Black comics by Lowell Cunningham. They were in black and white.


I guess Mangas peeve me because they are more broken out of frames than comics are. Harder than heck to read for me. That, and I have trouble discerning many things. I cant tell what some stuff is without color.

I own 4 of the compiled Cardcaptor Sakura Mangas so YES I know what I am talking about. Theyre hard at times to follow.

I enjoy colored comics because I can read them more clearly. Thats how my mind reads. It's activated by color.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Delia97
I adore color comics because they are lively and indeed they are a form of artwork.

BUT... my roots of fandom lead me to the original Men In Black comics by Lowell Cunningham. They were in black and white.


I guess Mangas peeve me because they are more broken out of frames than comics are. Harder than heck to read for me. That, and I have trouble discerning many things. I cant tell what some stuff is without color.

I own 4 of the compiled Cardcaptor Sakura Mangas so YES I know what I am talking about. Theyre hard at times to follow.

I enjoy colored comics because I can read them more clearly. Thats how my mind reads. It's activated by color.

Card Captor Sakura is drawn by CRAMPS, a three woman entourage that can draw fluffy pictures, but can't tell a coherent story. Pick up a copy of "Maison Ikkoku" or "Adolf" and you can see how some of the more skilled Japanese storytellers work.

[Conan-san]

I Have a Mix of manga and Comics

I usaly read more Manga-resque series (Eden's Trail and The Marvel Manga verse series)
and I also wead more rare manga series (ie Translation websites)
Like Dective conan and +anima (wich is very X manish ne?)

Aslo, I don't mind Comics done in the manga style as long as they don't flog themselves as manga...

[JohnCrichton]

I think I was just "buggin'" cuz that week I got some bad comics.

Got me a slew of American stuff this week and it was great.

[Thing]

I like color better than b/w... b/w can get confusing in huge action pictures. For example, Ragnorok is a great manga, but when there are fight scenes, all the motion lines blend in together with other stuff which makes hard to see stuff clearly for what they are.

And I don't know why people are worked up over Love Hina. I read the first one, and it was good... I read the second one, and I began to feel depressed... I read the third one and it got repetetive and boring... slice-of-life comics are okay everyone once and a while, but I'm not gonna spend ten bucks on every friggin' book just to see Naru call the main guy an idiot over every little thing.

Later...

[ClockStomper]

I think people prefer color because not very many artists know how to use black and white to it's fullest extent.

As much as people hate the Ninja Turtles for their god awful cartoon, the original comic by Eastman and Laird was amazing, probably one of the best black and white comics ever. The amount of detail is amazing and they were able to portray a full spectrum in duotones without using color.

As for modern american comics, the good stuff is too far and inbetween. A lot of books have decent enough stories but sub-par art (Gotham Central is the most recent comic I bought with this problem.)

[Jade_GL]

It all depends on what you think is good art, I suppose. I get a response internally from color, but I also like Black and White. Yet, not all Black and White is made by artists who know how to use it, or make better art than they would with color. I love the art of Sailormoon, when it's in color like the artbook stuff, but it looks cruddy in B and W, especially since it will have a few detailed and cool pictures that I love, but try to squeak by with other pictures that are not as good.

Lot's of color comic books nowadays have cruddy art, like JLA. But look to the Ultimates or some other works for amazing stuff.

I don't know, I just don't think one is better thaan the other in the end. It depends on what artist does it, and what they can do with it. :D

[Thing]

Most American books sub-par art? LOL, that's a good one.

Later...

[Zechs]

I have some american comics but I really like manga. Both are good in there own way but I like manga better because you get a wider selction of series than you do with american comics. As for coloe or B&W I could care less I admit I've been reading manga so long I would have to adjust to reading color american layouts but if it has a good storyline I'm up for it.