Nobody, I mean NOBODY cares about Terry McGuiness!

[The Shadow]

The only eason anyone tuned into BATMAN BEYOND was because the were, and are still starved for Batman content, ANY Batman content.

Let's not forget, This show was concieved by Warner Bros. to market toys! Just as the Batman movies (after the first one) were concieved WHOLLY for the reason of selling toys.

Let us also remind the big-shots at AOL/TW/Turner that once again their brilliant ideas, and tinkering, and arm-twisting have faillied. Superman failed, Batman Beyond failed, and I'm affriad that the Justice League will fail for all the same reasons, THESE GUYS AT WB DON"T KNOW HOW TO SUCCEED! and they certainly have no respect (past our collective purse-strings) for us, the consumers of their products!

I feel a little bad for Mr. Dini, I believe he, at one time had a real desire to produce something special, and for a short while he did with The BATMAN Animated Series, But I feel he has been reined-in, and eiher does not have the energy, or desire to go the extra mile (seemingly) necessary to produce a series like B:TAS.

The encroachment on quality. Quallity scripts. Quality animation, Quality all around.

[Mr. Obsession]

Actually shows like Superman and Batman Beyond were considered failures by kidsWB is because kidsWB is run by idiots. At one point BB was the highest rated show on kidsWB, then came Pokemon. Even after Pokemon took over the block, BB (when it had a decent time slot) was constantly battling MiB for the second highest rated show.

I'd also like to point out that even though AOL-TimeWarner has restructured, and channels like the WB and CN are a little closer now, they are still two completely different networks, with different cultures. KidsWB is out to make money through fads, CN is out to make money through franchises.

Have some faith in CN. The same CN was so convinced of Samurai Jack that they ordered three seasons worth of episodes before the premiere and when the saw the ratings ordered a theatrical movie. The same CN will be launching the Adultswim block in a few weeks. The same CN will be airing JL in a primtime slot come November and I believe the series will get the same treatment SJ has gotten.

Also, while Dini has done some great stuff he was not part of the creative team behind BTAS from the beginning, he was brought in as a writer after the series started and worked his way up from there. To credit him for the greatness that was BTAS & Superman & TNBA & BB while ignoring the rest of the creative team that worked just as hard is really quite sad.

[don Jaime]

Eh. You complain a lot, my young friend. What do you like in the way of cartoons?

[The Mad Hatter]

Yes, between the strange anti-Cartoon Network rant at the other board and this random attack on Terry, one could assume that you're trying to stir something up.

I'm with Don Jamie... I'd much rather hear about what cartoons you enjoy.

[Bird Boy]

if you are bashing Batman Beyond, which to me, it sounds like you are, then please, leave this board and don't come back. We discuss batman beyond here because we LIKE IT. and all of your "points" on how the Superman and Batman Beyond failed..that's bull. Like Mr. O said, BB was the top show before Pokemon came along.

Justice League will not fail because it's in the hands of a great fan of Batman, Bruce Timm..and it's on Cartoon Network...see.. CARTOON network. They care about the cartoons and I don't hear of them treating cartoons like crap. WB does treat their shows like crap (aside from the Anime..they treat those like they are gods gift to animation), but that's because they're a bunch of air heads.

-BB

[The Shadow]

I like very little in the way of Superhero animation today.

I liked Batman:TAS alot, although I would have prefered to see it uncensored & untampered with, at night, maybe on HBO like Spawn, with a little more graphic cause & effect. There were glimpses of greatness later-on (the episode "Over the Edge" comes to mind), and man that little Dark Knight sequece was cool.

Superman was awful, with the same old tired story lines. Batman Beyond was pretty bad also, athough a kinda liked the old Bruce Wayne.

Ya see, I believe that only by complaining do you get things done under these circumstances (being it doesn't look like either I, Frank Miller, or Alan Moore are going to be controllining AOLTW/Turner anytime soon).

Would everyone on this board like to see a completely unadultered Batman Animated Series, with the animation quality of the Iron Giant, aired on HBO at 10 PM, 13 one-hour-long episodes, no fruit roll-up commercials, and a Joker thats allowed to bethe depraved, manic, murderer that's made him so near & dear to all of our hearts. Let's start with the Killing Joke, or maybe the Batman/Judge Dredd cross-over, or heaven forbid Batman/Grendel (Damn, that would be too good!), and go from there. Imagine the DVD sales of any-one of those, it would be scary! I personally like animation better than live action when it come to this stuff. It's a more creative medium and it's alot cheaper than hiring Jack Nickolson.

[The Shadow]

It seems that despite the fact that Batman Beyond was a success in your opinion the series has been cancelled. Why?

Has the quality of production declined since BTAS or not? Can that be a reason? I would very much haved liked BB to be a good show but it wasn't in my opinion.

And as for being asked to leave the discussion, well that doesn't suprise me either.

Certain people are thrilled to celebrat the Sub-mediocre.

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by The Shadow
It seems that despite the fact that Batman Beyond was a success in your opinion the series has been cancelled. Why?

Has the quality of production declined since BTAS or not? Can that be a reason? I would very much haved liked BB to be a good show but it wasn't in my opinion.

And as for being asked to leave the discussion, well that doesn't suprise me either.

Certain people are thrilled to celebrat the Sub-mediocre.

for the billionth time it WASN'T CANCELLED. The people who worked on it went to do other things. If it doesn't well on CN, there is a slight glimmer of hope that it'll be picked up. So, I'll say it again. Batman beyond WAS NOT cancelled.

When you sit down to watch a show, you should enjoy it. If it absolutely stinks then don't watch it. Complaining about it being stinky isn't going to help one stinkin' bit.

-BB

[Maxie Zeus]

Ok, the thread's off to a bad start, but there's no reason to keep it that way.

There is room in these forums for criticism not just of WB itself (well-deserved, for the most part) but of its shows. Some of our most interesting threads in this forum have revolved around perceived weaknesses in the series and its characters. But such criticisms are best received, and most intelligently expressed, when offered temperately and with a minimum of series-bashing.

[D-Mono]

Hey, is this the same Shadow from He-Man.Org?
Personally, I watch Batman Beyond because I love the characters and settings. It's a nice, refreshing break from TAS, TNBA and Superman, with gorgeous stylised animation, a stellar cast and extremely high-quality writing. Return of the Joker is one of the best Batman movies period. If, as you suggested, Batman had been done ala HBO's Spawn, it wouldn't have been Batman. Violence doesn't make a show - it's only useful and worthwhile to have if it serves a purpose, such as character development or story-telling.
I really hate it when people balk and b*tch about stuff on a board made for the people who obviously won't like their snide comments or give a damn, frankly.
D-Mono.

[The Shadow]

Nope, I'm a different Shadow.

Thanks for those of you who consider my criticisms at least founded, even if not well.

I still feel that htere are very few outlets for concered Bat-Fans to voice their discontent with WB, and maybe, just maybe effect future projects.

I would not be taking time to do this if I didn't care a bout this stuff.

Also, I stand corrected on the BB cancellantion issue. However why did they cease production if the show was successful? The Simpson's are still going strong after 11 seasons.

Why was B:tas ever cancelled in the first place? Why did it not simply evolve and continue to get better & better?

We all know the reson for that: WB.

[James Harvey]

Why did WB not renew Batman or Batman Beyond? Becuase they discovered to run a show ad naseum in reruns makes more money then making new episodes. I can't really see how that logic works, but they stood by it and ran all their good show sinto reruns. The only DC cartoon that was really CANCELLED was S:TAS becuase they wanted to work on BB. They cut the order from 65 to 54 and halted any production on episodes #55 - 65 so they could focus on BB. I really enjoyed BB. Sure some of the episodes weren't all that good, but the look was nice & sleek and the interaction really worked on the series. BB was a good show, in the top 20 all times cartoons ever made where it should be. When WB discovered they could buy other shows from other companies as well, and that cost less, that also helped put nails in the coffin. Thank god for CN.

[Nightwing]

Like Maxie said, it's alright to have a thread like this, as long as it doesn't get out of control. Although degregation of the particular message board's topic is against the board rules and results in a banning. But I'm glad this thread is being held under control.

But what it seems to me is something I've seen a lot since BB came out. BTAS was our first animated Batman experience, so that being a fact I'm sure it will never be able to be topped. It's never happened. But I personally loved Superman (see one of my quotes below, even), and I really liked BB despite the pot holes the teen show obsessed jerks at WB made it trip over. They made some mistakes, but our original BTAS crew (the REAL team of Batman/Batgirl/Robin/etc people) did their best, and I'm glad we got what we got.

[Mr. Obsession]

Originally posted by The Shadow
Also, I stand corrected on the BB cancellantion issue. However why did they cease production if the show was successful? The Simpson's are still going strong after 11 seasons.


And the quality for The Simpsons (in all areas you mentioned before, except animation) has gone down the toilet in the last few seasons. The creative team behind the series want to get it canceled, the core fans who were there before the show became successful have mostly left, and only Fox wants to keep the series going for ratings. Futurerama is today was The Simpsons once was.

[superfreak]

I care. WB did a stupid thing by dumping BB.:mad: That show has alot more potential if WB works hard at it. I mean like given us clues to what ever happen to Dick Grayson. Foucs more on Terry's role as Batman and his interaction with Burce.

[James]

Originally posted by The Shadow
I like very little in the way of Superhero animation today.

I liked Batman:TAS alot, although I would have prefered to see it uncensored & untampered with, at night, maybe on HBO like Spawn, with a little more graphic cause & effect. There were glimpses of greatness later-on (the episode "Over the Edge" comes to mind), and man that little Dark Knight sequece was cool.

Superman was awful, with the same old tired story lines. Batman Beyond was pretty bad also, athough a kinda liked the old Bruce Wayne.

Ya see, I believe that only by complaining do you get things done under these circumstances (being it doesn't look like either I, Frank Miller, or Alan Moore are going to be controllining AOLTW/Turner anytime soon).

Would everyone on this board like to see a completely unadultered Batman Animated Series, with the animation quality of the Iron Giant, aired on HBO at 10 PM, 13 one-hour-long episodes, no fruit roll-up commercials, and a Joker thats allowed to bethe depraved, manic, murderer that's made him so near & dear to all of our hearts. Let's start with the Killing Joke, or maybe the Batman/Judge Dredd cross-over, or heaven forbid Batman/Grendel (Damn, that would be too good!), and go from there. Imagine the DVD sales of any-one of those, it would be scary! I personally like animation better than live action when it come to this stuff. It's a more creative medium and it's alot cheaper than hiring Jack Nickolson.

Fine, I can agree with you that it would be nice to see some animated versions of some of the Batman classics, but that no way should affect your critical opinion on the WB shows.

Seems to me as that you dislike what you have already just because you want something more. Grass is always greener mate, and I imagine if they gave you your more serious tie-in there would always be something more you'd like to see them do on the horizon...

I have enjoyed all the formats of these characters - yes, there are times where I wish they had less restrictions so they could expand the format, but nevertheless I think they do a good job.
Quite frankly, there isn't the market for what you suggest. I'm afraid comic readers are in the minority and there isn't a studio that will pick up the costs for such an expensive concept...

HOWEVER.... some bright sparks realised that you could sell an idea like Batman to a network as a potential kids show (with potential merchandising rights galore) and then make the concept as adult as they can with the restraints of the kid market.
Dini and co effectively infiltrated the kid markets with cartoons aimed at adults but serve well for kids. Hence these cartoons haven't been dumb and simple transformers/pokemon cartoons with little to no thought beside selling a product. Execs are always very weary of violence so it is a dangerous battlefield for a programme such as Batman.

For all these reasons - and the fact that Terry stands well alone and along side Bruce - the animated series' you diss should be given a little more respect as what you desire is highly unlikely to happen. You be thankful for what you have just received... :)

[Mr. Mayhem]

Failures?...I don't think so.

Batman Beyond was far from being a failure. Let's not forget it did top the charts before and sometimes after Pokeman came. It also made the DTV ROTJ come to life. Far as I know the video was a huge success. I was even in the top ten of best selling videos. Batman Beyond also brought in a whole new legion of fans. I've been a Batman for years and I then I see people coming in claiming to be new fans. When I ask them what brought them in, they say Batman Beyond. So while the toy line sucked, Batman Beyond itself was far from being any kind of failure. Like stated above, it wasn't cancelled. They just decided to move on to other projects instead of pick it up for a fourth season.

Superman got off to a slow start, but was really assisted when Batman came in to save it. Some may look at Superman as a failure, but then again that depends on if you are a Superman fan or not. I like ol' Supes. I also really believe it'll go down as a memorable animated series. Many criticly acclaimed episodes like Worlds' Finest, Apokolips Now..., and Legacy came from Superman.

So please remember that the majority of the WF goers are going to have to disagree with this "failure" statement. We've been around discussing these topics for a few years already. I can't see how something amounting to years can equal a failure. Sorry.

[D-Mono]

First off, what does "DTV" mean? I've seen this term used here and there, and am just a wee bit confused. :)
Back on topic - I personally love how it went Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, TNB/SA, BB, and soon JLA - variety is, after all, the spice of life. I kinda agree with the Simpsons creative team - I'd be bored after working on the same damn show for 10+ years running.
Hordak.

[The Shadow]

I stand by my statement that in the case of both Superman & Batman Beyond, the expectations were greater than those that were realized. Fewer episodes, Less-buzz, few-toys sold, again all of these things add up to something less than a success in my opinion.

I'm not sure how close many of you are to the productiuon staff, and I'm not intent on insulting anyones efforts here. However, in no way should anyone HAVE to be grateful for what little we have been given by WB! PLEASE! That is insulting!

WB can & should do better in future animation projects.

And I will not be entirely happly until I see the corporate controls lifted from these artist & writters, and until this medium is given the "artistic" freedom to express these icons of my youth the way they should (in my opinion).

Why is it that Japanese animation is excepted as an adult medium? How many copies of AKIRA or GHOST IN THE MACHINE have been sold on VHS, and now DVD? You mean to tell me that a high-end Batman or Superman movies would do 10x the business?

[The Mad Hatter]

So... you're measuring success by number of episodes made and toys sold, rather than the general quality of the episodes?

One thing to keep in mind is that, in part, Batman Beyond was made within a different corporate mindset than the Batman series. Previously, if a show got good ratings, it got new episodes. Nowadays, WB will can a series, even if it's getting good ratings, to save money and sponge off the re-runs. If Batman was made today, WB would have cancelled it by now because it's more expensive than Pokemon. You hit the nail on the head: the studio execs are the problem, and it's these execs that kept us from getting more episodes.

Another point... you list Spawn as a success, but it didn't have nearly as many episodes as Batman Beyond.

Am I dissapointed that Batman Beyond didn't get more episodes? Heck yes. Do I look down on the show because of it? No, I look down on the execs who killed a show that was getting great ratings. I still love the show. Debate about its quality vs. B:TAS aside, the show was better than 95% of the other animated series out there nowadays. It all boils down to a matter of opinion. I won't think badly of you if you don't like the show (though I do wonder again why you're patronizing this board if you're so down on it), but to say that we shouldn't enjoy a show just because it didn't get hundreds of episodes made is ludicrous.

[The Shadow]

I loved the idea of Doin' an Old Batman series. I just think BB mised the mark on several levels. It had it's moments, just not too many.

[Bird Boy]

Season 2 mostly ranked. Season 1 and 3 haven't been too bad though.

As for WB, we know they're a punch of crap heads. They don't care one bit about the fans. They are in the business for the money and to tick the fans off by any means necessary.

Sorry I blew up at you Shadow..I just get very tempermental when I see one of my favorite shows crapped upon.. :)

-BB

[James]

Originally posted by The Shadow

And I will not be entirely happly until I see the corporate controls lifted from these artist & writters, and until this medium is given the "artistic" freedom to express these icons of my youth the way they should (in my opinion).

Why is it that Japanese animation is excepted as an adult medium? How many copies of AKIRA or GHOST IN THE MACHINE have been sold on VHS, and now DVD? You mean to tell me that a high-end Batman or Superman movies would do 10x the business?

Then I think you will remain unhappy. Adult animation - especially tie-in material such as Batman which requires licensing and third parties - is not going to have the freedom that occurs in Japan.

Firstly, the market isn't there in the US or Europe. Animation costs and is time consuming. It has a small audience. You are not going to get people putting out money for such concepts. Like it or not (and I imagine you won't), cartoons in the west have is an almost exclusive medium for kids. Thus, animation - at best - ends up as a hybrid of kid/adult ideas.

Secondly, you are asking for a licenced material to be made for adult audience. Again, licenced material costs. There are a lot of parties involved in such projects. All to be kept happy and all expecting a return. More so, the copyright holders want to keep material as accessable as possible as to keep the material high profile. Again, a reason why children TV is so popular. Plus, you have a mechandising rights - but I won't bore you on a subject we all know so well.

We are getting there. Mask Of The Phantasm and ROTJ are tiny baby steps to adult anime for the likes of Batman. They are baby steps and for each move forward, these companies and creators must make sure they won't lose their footing. I think these animated series we have had have been excellent. Never perfect, but excellent. I have a great deal of respect for the creators - and to some extent - to WB for still dealing in such concepts. Since the 90's, guns and action have become an uncomfortable subject for kids cartoons. Bottom burping hedge hogs and the like seem to be a far more safe province to tread with parents. I'm just happy to see that WB is still holding the torch light with JL and hope that the day will come when we will see unhampered Bat-material!

[Mr. Mayhem]

The Spawn series was a complete joke in my opinion. The writting just plain sucked. They put more emphasis on cussing and T and A just because they could. Now don't get me wrong, these things definately do not offend me (I cuss all the time). However, if I want to see naked chicks I'll just pull out my Playboy video collection. My point is, the storyline in Spawn was boring. Lacked punch. They tried to attach a label on the thing that said "This is Adult Programming!." Problem was that label was too damn big, and it pushed actual quality straight down the toilet. Batman is far superior. It had very thoughtful scripts and a brilliant voice cast. Batman had bold heroics. He wanted to actually help people in need. Fighting evil is a battle he'll never win, but yet he'll die before he ever gives up the battle. Spawn is a miserable creep who sulks in self-pity and feels it isn't his responsiblity to help others. If I'm going to follow a quote "Hero", then I'll follow the one who cares for his fellow citizen.

Also, I still cannot understand why you think Batman Beyond is a failure. The toy sells do not measure up what true success is about. The fact that the majority of the fans and public responded to the show's quality is what makes Batman Beyond a success. You never hear the papers and magazines say anything but good things about these shows (Unless the parents are whining about it being too violent). So yeah, Batman Beyond and Superman were successful.

[D-Mono]

DTV? Explanation, anyone? ;)
D-Mono.

[Mr. Mayhem]

DTV is our abbreviation for Direct To Video. Like Subzero and Return of the Joker were direct to video releases.

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by The Shadow
I stand by my statement that in the case of both Superman & Batman Beyond, the expectations were greater than those that were realized.

The later releases of anything aren't going to measure up to the leap in excellence that the original took. BTAS will never ever be topped. There's a slim chance it might be, physically, but BTAS left such an impact on us both physically and mentally that it will never be topped in our heads. I'm not saying it's something we have to "deal with" I'm saying it's something we should be happy about. BTAS left quite a bench mark.

And I don't think taking that out on Superman and Batman Beyond is at all fair. Especially because I think Batman Beyond did a great job, despite the problems it had. But Batman Beyond had many more enemies during production (the entire bunch of WB executives) than BTAS did durint it's production. So that brings back the other point already reached. It's WB's fault for being greedy jerks that we will openly despise forever.

And I must say even though I love Superman, I disagree with what was said about Superman's show's slow start which didn't pick up until Batman came in. All of the first episodes of Superman were excellent. And I think the one's with Batman went slightly lower than excellent (but still good of course). Like "The Demon Reborn" for example.

[Mr. Mayhem]

Nightwing, you may have misunderstood what I said. Superman was no less of a good show as far as quality in it's first season. It's just that the ratings were not so hot. Some people didn't even know the show existed. However, with all the 1997 Batman hype from the movie to the animated series network move, Superman was brought in the light alittle more. It became more recognized than it was. It was always a good show in terms of quality though. The first two seasons of Superman were great, and then the third season started going down. I think more or the less that the creators kinda gave up on it once they started BB. Heck, I think WB kinda forced them to can it. Sad huh?

[Tim Drake]

K bout BB Season 1 and 3 were good. Season 2 blew because they had two many episodes quality went down plus the team was divided partially into the ROTJ team and the BB team.

Superman was very good the first season was solid. A little piece of home was an episode entirely about Kryptonite and yet it was awesome.

I agree in many BTAS was the best. I like the style which was more detailed and less concerned with being streamlined. But the animation did suffer in several episodes. Like Perchance to Dream, great story horrible animation. Overall though it is the most memorable. Boasting so many great episodes.

Spawn sucks. I bought Season 2 on DVD. I don't have HBO so I got it cause it was cheap at Blockbuster. Total waste of money. While the animation was very striking the story was boring. I was bored, I've never been bored by a cartoon before. The characters were so one dimensional that I had no attachment to them. I felt for Bruce when he lost Andrea I felt for Supes when Dan Turpin died. I didn't give a darn bout Spawn.

American animation still has a long way to go. Because there isn't an adult market for animation. That's why we have to be appreciative toward Bruce Timm Paul Dini etc. they make cartoons that kids are allowed to watch that adults can enjoy on an adult level. Though I must admit ROTJ edited pissed me off.

But things are looking up CN has adult swim. We'll be seeing Cowboy Bebop unedited. Justice League I am almost certain will have more mature material than BTAS BB and STAS since Cartoon Network censors are so much better. So in short I disagree with The Shadow's negative viewpoints. Yes American animation does not compare to anime. But its getting there.

Thank God for CN. They are the savior for American Animation.

[The Shadow]

No Hatter, the exec's at WB are measuring succes be toys sold, not me. And wht I'm saying is, prouduce a no-holds-barred superhero movies, and you'll sell more toy's then ever imagined!

[James]

Originally posted by The Shadow
No Hatter, the exec's at WB are measuring succes be toys sold, not me. And wht I'm saying is, prouduce a no-holds-barred superhero movies, and you'll sell more toy's then ever imagined!

I would be surprised. Superhero toys have never been extremely popular in sales. They do well enough, but if we look at past experience, the is yet to be a superhero toyline (except, perhaps the Teenage Mutant Ninja/Hero Turtles) that has captured the hearts of the kids SO much that it's worth making an expensive (and superhero films if done correctly do end up being expensive if done correctly!).

Besides, surely this goes back on your point that the WB are making 'dumbed' cartoons to sell toys by saying that studio should look towards a 'no holds barred movie' with the motivation to do so because that would indeed sell toys. Catch 22?

[The Mad Hatter]

No Hatter, the exec's at WB are measuring succes be toys sold, not me.

But didn't you make the point yourself, several times, that BB wasn't a success because it didn't sell as many toys? We thought that was your criteria... okay then, what ARE your criteria for success and failure? Based on the examples of Batman Beyond (failure) and Spawn (success) you listed.

[James]

Just another small point about the title of this thread - and if this was a shock tactic, I apologise for reading too much into it (it certainly got people's attention!) - but I REALLY like Terry McGinnis. I thought the character worked really well and managed to give the new Batman a radically different personna to that of Wayne. A Wayne clone would have been a bad idea and the juxtaposition of these two character types is what makes series 1 a joy to watch and series 2 just about watchable (when someone manages to keep Max from hogging the limelight!)

Small point, but one that was bugging me - I think you'll find a great deal on this board feel the same way too!

I have met too many people who have felt Terry was a poor character to follow Wayne. I think if you dismiss Terry for not being Wayne (which I'm not suggesting Shadow in particular is doing this), one can be in danger of harbouring a mind closed to new ideas. If I offend anyone with that remark I deeply apologise, I can't think of any other way to put the point without unnecessarily sugar coating it! :)