WB's squandered opportunities

[The Shadow]

Warner Bros. has squandered opportunity after opportunity in the field of animation, both on Television & in Theaters.

This company, from day one, has mis-managed it's properties. Any glimmer of originality, or working outside of the "template", has been regularly met with corporate resistance & tampering.

The fact that any work of quality speratically makes it through the gauntlet of "upper-managerial" BS is amazing to me.

This is a company that routinely wreaks havok on superheroes. Superman/Girl, Batman & Robin, and soon Catmoman are some of victims of WB tinkering. Everything from casting, to scripts, they screw-around to the point where the characters barely resemble themselves.

They have produced several "train-wreck" TV series. SMALLVILLE is just the latest " Superman/boy/girl series based on the same old tired "template".

They, at WB, have the opportunity for greatness. They own the rights to some of the most popular & interesting characters in world of comics-books. They have ability to produce beautiful animation (did anyone see the Iron Giant? WB had a gem in thier hands and didn't even know it.). They own thier own Broadcast Network who' s ratings a virtually non-exsistant, a Network dedicated to cartoons (and animation I presume), and half-a-dozen or so HBO stations starved for content, yet they have had to farm-out for material. Who owns SPAWN? Why not produce an adult animated series yourself and cut-out the middleman?
Base it on any of a littany of DC characters deservant of consideration. The Specter, Dr. Fate, Sgt. Rock, Hellraiser, The Sandman, Death, etc, etc, etc!

Most people today who read comics are adults (at least in my experience). This fact has not been brought to the attention of the suits at WB. They still dumb-down these products for kids. When they have treated the material more seriously they have had success. When they have treated it less seriously you get the Batman & Robin movie.

I have watched the quality of each and every subsequent WB produced animated series, since B:TAS degrade. Flat back-grounds, less detailed characters, so on & so forth.

The future doesn't look too good. The Politicall-Correct police are at work on the Justice League. It's seems that affirmative action extends to the Justice League Satilite (thank god their not in California). Mr. Dini admits that a black Green Lantern & use of Hawkwoman was done for the point "balance". Well we don't have any Black Presidents, and none of the Beatles were Women, let's revise those in future art & literiture also for the sake of "balance". I know this is just a cartoon, but hell, so was Captain Planet, and it attempted to brain-wash children with Greenpeace/Socialist propaganda. I am fearful that JL is heading down the same path (WB does own TBS & the rights to Captain Planet now, don't they?).

This is the same Company that has no problem marketing gangster-rap, and semi-pornographic music videos to whoever. It produces The Soprano's & Sex in the City, two of the most graphic shows on Cable-TV, right? So why hasn't WB animation evolved? ...You know thier are no Blacks or Women in Tony Soprano's Crew...Hum?

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Don't forget the fact they screwed thier Silver Age cartoons, thus taking a large chunk out of thier fanbase, and marketed Osmosis Jones poorly.
Yes, WB has squandrered many opportunities...it's sad....that's why barely anyone here watches WB stuff anymore.

[Psycho Fox]

Don't forget Atari WB had the chance to be bigger the MS is now but they blew it big time.

But I got to admit WB excels at failing

[The Mad Hatter]

I wouldn't be too concerned about "revision" in the DC universe. How many Green Lanterns have they had? Five? And yes, John Stewart was one of them. Not to mention that the entire DC universe seems to get completely revised every five years ago. Don't even ask what Superman's origin is now. :rolleyes:

At any rate, I wouldn't complain about JLA till you see it. It could be that this version of Green Lantern is the best yet. Or he could suck. We won't know till we watch it.

Oh, and Cartoon Network IS making adult cartoons. Check out Adult Swim this Sunday.

[Anthonynotes]

Re: Superman's various spinoff series:
Since his original radio series in the 40's (and the Fleischer cartoons), spinoffs of the Man of Steel from the comics have taken on various peculiar traits that aren't in the original comics....and thanks to said spinoffs, we've seen such things as kryptonite, a prominent use of Jimmy Olsen, flying, etc. introduced to the comics' realm...

Still, no way around it that the animation on the post-original B:TAS isn't as good as the original, though still much better than, say, the "Superfriends" ...

>>The future doesn't look too good. The Politicall-Correct police are at work on the Justice League. It's seems that affirmative action extends to the Justice League Satilite (thank god their not in California). Mr. Dini admits that a black Green Lantern & use of Hawkwoman was done for the point "balance". Well we don't have any Black Presidents, and none of the Beatles were Women, let's revise those in future art & literiture also for the sake of "balance". I know this is just a cartoon, but hell, so was Captain Planet, and it attempted to brain-wash children with Greenpeace/Socialist propaganda. I am fearful that JL is heading down the same path (WB does own TBS & the rights to Captain Planet now, don't they?).
<<

Well, first of all, as Hatter's alluded to, there've been multiple Green Lanterns seen in the comics:
- the original 1940's one, Alan Scott, whose weakness was to wood (yep, *wood*, folks....throwing a tree branch at 'im would've done him in :-)

- the "Silver Age" one's most prominent person, Hal Jordan

- the 3600 Green Lanterns from various parts of the galaxy that made up the GL Corps, of whom Earth had several of: Hal, Guy Gardner (hotheaded red-haired guy), and John Stewart (the African-American guy being used in this JL series).

- and of course, Kyle Rayner, the current guy...of whom the less I say about him, the better IMO :-)

Thus, any of these guys (aside from Alan Scott, probably) could've been used for the cartoon series (IIRC, the post-Alan Scott GL's were all members of the JLA in the comics at one point or another), especially given the big roster changes the team's gone through since their 1960 inception. And using John Stewart isn't "political correctness", but (among other things) a sign of acknowledging that some of the show's potential viewers aren't white (including me); plus, the animated series can and often do take a seperate direction fro the current comics (a good thing for me, or otherwise I'd probably have zero interest in Batman these days otherwise...). Besides, Stewart was a prominent member in the comics in his own right, and was hardly a "token" as you seem to imply he'd be in this series---something I don't believe will be the case given the staff involved (vs. the likes of Black Vulcan/Apache Chief on the "Superfriends", who *were* one-dimensional characters...though I guess so was everyone else on that show :-) To accuse the producers of the JL series that they're trying to "brainwash" youth merely for including an African-American character who *is* a Green Lantern as much as Kyle/Hal are/were doesn't wash IMO, and seems pretty insulting (I doubt African-American kids watching would think they're being "brainwashed" for seeing someone on screen that looks like themselves)...

As for Capt. Planet, I think that show had bigger problems than trying to suggest to kids that recycling's worthwhile (though "socialistic messages" wasn't one of them---just plain preachiness for starters...along with the bad writing, bad animation, bad characterization, etc.).

-B.
Who really isn't up to rehashing Superman's current comic "origin" (if it could be called that) right now...

[The Shadow]

Brainatra

Thanks for your input on this matter. I'm sorry if we don't see eye to eye on some points, but hey thats the great thing about these boards.

Thanks for reminding all of us about the various Green Lantern incarnations. Allan Scott was my favorite, but Guy Gardner was interesting as well.

I was not aware that the new JL Green Lantern was American since I have not read the book in years, so I did not feel comfortable calling him African-American, or African for that matter, and negroe did not sound right, so I called him black. I hope that was not a mistake on my part. I apologize if it was.

I still don't think they needed to go the whole "balance" route to acknowledge their African-American audience. After all, The Cosby's didn't have to drop European-Americans into their storyline to acknowledge their presense, I don't think?

By the way wasn't the group once called the JLA, Justice League of America...what happened to that.

Anyway, I have seen the preview of JL, and it's animation doesn't look much different than Supe's, or BB. I hope I will suprise me, and turn out better than it initially looks.

Why is it that with the advances made in CGI and all that, that studio's can't, or won't produce animation as good as, or better than, the old Fleisher Studio's Superman Series?

[Anthonynotes]

>>>Thanks for your input on this matter. I'm sorry if we don't see eye to eye on some points, but hey thats the great thing about these boards.
<<<

You're welcome...
>>>
Thanks for reminding all of us about the various Green Lantern incarnations. Allan Scott was my favorite, but Guy Gardner was interesting as well.
<<<

My favorite would probably have been Hal, though I admit I'm not much of a GL follower (though I pretty much despise Kyle...more on this below...).

>>>
I was not aware that the new JL Green Lantern was American since I have not read the book in years, so I did not feel comfortable calling him African-American, or African for that matter, and negroe did not sound right, so I called him black. I hope that was not a mistake on my part. I apologize if it was.
<<<

That's OK...."black" will suffice (plus, it's easier to type).

AFAIK, John Stewart's as American as Alan, Hal & Kyle are...

>>>I still don't think they needed to go the whole "balance" route to acknowledge their African-American audience. After all, The Cosby's didn't have to drop European-Americans into their storyline to acknowledge their presense, I don't think?
<<<

Well, there were Caucasian characters that showed up on occasion on "Cosby"... but still, I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that their potential viewership includes non-White fans as well, esp. since minority viewers appreciate seeing themselves represented in TV shows/movies (and especially in something other than just comedies/as one-dimensionally-written "tokens" [as was the case in the "Superfriends" re: Apache Chief and the like], neither of which will be the apparent case for John Stewart in this series...). Besides, John Stewart's quite qualified to become Green Lantern, moreso IMO than Kyle (John's been around as a character for the past two decades, and is shown to have plenty of experience under his belt as a GL---the very other reason that he was chosen for this series, according to the producers. Probably the only things Kyle had going for him was his youth and a "kewl" costume/attitude...), and especially if Hal Jordan (as I suspect) is off-limits for usage (and Alan might be in store for a JSA appearance)...

>>
By the way wasn't the group once called the JLA, Justice League of America...what happened to that.
<<<

They're still the Justice League of America (with a brief name change or three back in the late 80's/early 90's). My guess is that "Justice League" is shorter in the titles (though they could've taken the route of the comic and used the acronym "JLA" but then potential viewers might not know who that is)...

>>>
Anyway, I have seen the preview of JL, and it's animation doesn't look much different than Supe's, or BB. I hope I will suprise me, and turn out better than it initially looks.<<<

The models I've seen look pretty decent (esp. the Injustice Gang)...

>>>
Why is it that with the advances made in CGI and all that, that studio's can't, or won't produce animation as good as, or better than, the old Fleisher Studio's Superman Series? <<<

Beats me....different times, I guess. Plus, most animation these days is done overseas,which might give it a different style than the American-produced cartoons of yore...

-B.

[James Harvey]

Why does almost EVERYONE think that Paul Dini is involved with JUSTICE LEAGUE? He's not! I am not worried at all about the show. They're using Hawkgirl. Big deal! They're using John Stewart. Big deal! I totally understand Timm throughing some mix into the formula. I'm glad we have these characters in there. I don't like Plastic Man and Aquaman is boring. They got rid of two of my least favorite characters and inserted two fine ones. Don't judge something before you see it.

[Anthonynotes]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
Why does almost EVERYONE think that Paul Dini is involved with JUSTICE LEAGUE? He's not! I am not worried at all about the show. They're using Hawkgirl. Big deal! They're using John Stewart. Big deal! I totally understand Timm throughing some mix into the formula. I'm glad we have these characters in there. I don't like Plastic Man and Aquaman is boring. They got rid of two of my least favorite characters and inserted two fine ones. Don't judge something before you see it.

Well, I don't have a problem with Hawkgirl being thrown in either...especially given that Hawkman probably has, ahem, "problems" of his own right now (*koff*continuityscrewedupbeyond belief*koff*)...

Aquaman---*boring*?! How can he be dull? I mean, haven't you seen the kewl new costume he has?! He has a hook for a *hand*! And a surly teenager-esque attitude to match! How can that not be cool?! OK, sure, he still swims really fast and talks to fish, but *now* he's all anal-retentive, anti-social and kewl lookin' while doin' that! (/sarcasm off) Admittedly, this version of Aquaman showing up would be my one reservation about the new series...namely, "Aquahook" kind of embodies what I *don't* like about their "real" comics universe (the grim and gritty, kewl stuff on maximum overkill that makes Pokemon-exposure look amateuristic, and being applied to characters it doesn't seem appropriate for [like, well, Aquaman]), and seeing that aspect slip over into the animated series doesn't sit too well with me. On the other hand, given the producers' track record, Aquaman could/should be somewhat entertaining in his guest appearances....


-B.
Well, *I* like Plas anyways...

[The Shadow]

I have agree with B on this one. I like the "boring", straight-man Aquaman. I think that he would have played off well with the comedic Flash.

Also regarding the Flash, I think it was a BIG mistake not to use Barry Allan in the JL(animated) series. This was their chance to staighten out the wholle continuity thing with this character. It also slams the door on Wally West being used in a future Teen Titans endevor.

I saw the DC animated world as an improvement on the tangled-up DC Universe. Wipr the slate clean, use the original cast of characters, with their original origins, and costumes, and go from their. See what happens?

That was really my point on John Stewart/GL he is not the original JL character.

[The Mad Hatter]

That was really my point on John Stewart/GL he is not the original JL character.

Soooo.... you want the golden age guy who can be defeated by wood? :)

I can understand your concerns... heck, I've got a few of them too (how are they going to redo Martian Manhunter's back story?). But I'm waiting to see how the series turns out.

Also, I should make a point here: there's a large difference between animation style and animation quality. Did the animation style suffer in TNBA? For the most part, I think yes. It was an experiment by Timm to place ease of animation over complexity that probably went a bit too far.

But, the animation quality (as in, how the characters moved) actually increased. Remember back in the good old days of B:TAS where a bunch of episodes were animated by AKOM? Man, the animation there was cruddy. By the time TNBA came around, the creators only devoted themselves to middle and top-tier animation studios, such as Dong Yang and TMS. The same goes for Batman Beyond... quibble with styles aside, we never got anything there that was nearly as bad as, say, "Prophesy of Doom."

So, even though some of us may not like the styles, general quality hasn't gone out the window.

[Anthonynotes]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter


Soooo.... you want the golden age guy who can be defeated by wood? :)




I think he's referring to the original JLA member, Hal Jordan (the guy who could be defeated by *yellow*---world of difference :-)

Still, as I said before, media spinoffs of characters often take what's considered by those makers the "best" elements and incorporate them into the series, rather than what's in the current comics---otherwise, Superman in this series would have been sent to Earth in that wretched "birthing matrix" thing, Hawkgirl wouldn't even be getting *used* (screwedup history/JSA member), Aquaman would be a member this time around (with "kewl" attitude to match), Lex would still be in his billionaire guise (and half the Injustice Gang wouldn't even be there, since they're Golden Age/JSA villains), and we'd be seeing Kyle as GL (another possible reason for Stewart: given the producers' expressed dislike for "Aquahook", they might not be too big fans of Kyle either... and who could blame them? :-x ) Plus, I think Stewart might've been a member of one of the 80's/early 90's JL spinoff teams, but I'm not sure...

As for the Manhunter's back story, I think they've got something worked out...

-B.
Really loathes the "birthing matrix"/"Clark as a jock in high school" thing...

[The Shadow]

No, I really meant Allan Scott. I like him best dispite his wooden- weakness.

I also realize he was in the JSA, not the JLA, therfore he would not be my first choice (or last choice) for that team.

I would like to see the original JLA team (maybe even Snapper Carr). Ya see, I liked the old Earth-One, Earth-Two thing. This new unified DC Universe is anything but simplified.