B:TAS "Old Wounds" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Discuss this classic Batman: The Animated Series episode from the The New Batman Adventures era!


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/17oldwounds/50.jpg

Episode #102 - Old Wounds
Original Airdate - October 3rd, 1998.

The original Robin, Dick Grayson recounts to the new Robin, Tim Drake, why he and Batman broke up as a crime-fighting team.

Comments?

[Caped Crusader]

One of the best episodes ever! That punch Robin gives Batman is such a powerful moment even if Batgirl's delayed reaction is kinda funny.

[The Penguin]

"I've had it! I can't do this anymore! I gotta get away" - Dick Grayson, Old Wounds

I said I'd edit in my comments and here I am! I'm horribly late commenting on this great episode, but I have to say that I really enjoyed it. "Old Wounds" ties up a lot of interesting loose ends in the Batman-Robin relationship between BTAS and TNBA.

The bumpers with the new Robin and Nightwing added to the story—the old passing on stories to the new. "You sound just like Batman."

Alfred was on fire in this episode with his "Yes, I admit it, I am Batman." confession to Barbara. :D

The Joker was great too "Hey! Do I hit your kids? Oh, actually I do..." :D

Batman knows a lot of stuff, but I was surprised to hear him tell Barbara he knew she was Batgirl! :eek:

Batman was really rough in this episode when he was dealing with the low-level thug. I know he wants to "catch the bad guy" but it still kind of surprised me. It was nice to see later seeing that Bruce Wayne had given the man a job.

I was shocked to see Dick go off on Bats like that. He actually got in a fight with the man who took him into his home and pretty much raised him. The throwing of the cape spoke volumes.

The ending was nice with Tim helping Dick see that he was not the only one who had "changed." This could be a whole new beginning for Batman and Robin, Batman and Nightwing, Bruce and Dick, father and son.

"I guess it's about time."

[Bird Boy]

*****

Definitely one of THE coolest TNBA eps, although, if you read the comic book "The Lost Years" (available in trade paperback), you'll notice there's alot more than was just told--would've made an awesome 2 parter.

Still, some great stuff in this episode--we find out why Dick quit plus some pretty coo scenes (I know I'm not the only one who got goosebumps when it showed Nightwing and Robin flying towards the bat-signal).

-BB

[Condiment King]

"Things change! I changed! The game's over, Batman! I quit!" -Dick Grayson

Awesome episode! I still am convinced that the best part of the entire episode is when Dick sheds the Boy Wonder costume.

I thought it was a realistic look at Batman perhaps going too far one time. The pure shock of Dick's punch was shown on Batgirl's face. What raw emotion in this episode!

The parallels show between Bruce and Dick throughout the episode show just how much people change. :D

The Joker just fit perfectly right in there. Tim had a major role in this episode as should he be since he is the new Robin talking to the old Robin. Barbara's role in the episode was perfect. It didn't seem like she was trying to replace Tim like in some of the other episodes.

[JohnStewart-GL]

One of the best Batman episodes ever! I loved the scene were dick sheds the robin suit after he knocks Batman down.

[Thundercleese]

Damn my science teacher....detention for chewing gum, i missed the episode ive been loking forward to for like....5 months

[Webryder]

Originally posted by Bird Boy
*****

Definitely one of THE coolest TNBA eps, although, if you read the comic book "The Lost Years" (available in trade paperback), you'll notice there's alot more than was just told--would've made an awesome 2 parter.

-BB

I agree that this episode did pack a punch in terms of drama and surprise, but I think it could've went a whole lot farther if they expanded upon the story of Batman's eventual descent into the events shown in that guy's apartment.

As is it appears that Batman's muscling of some random hood in front of his family became the BIG straw that broke the camel's back (the ONLY straw, not just the last) and ended their partnership. I would've liked the writers to have taken their time with this story and develop, over the course of maybe a two parter, a sequence of events:
Bruce subtly becoming colder, then unreasonable and dismissive till finally all the job seemed to be to him was ends justifying the means, with the situation culminating into Dick quiting, making for a much stronger overall impact.

Not to say this story didn't have it's merit, far from it! Like the character bits with Nightwing and young Robin being insightful and arguing to Dick that the underlying reason he's got so much contempt for Batman might be because he's so much like him. "So the father becomes the son", in a manner of speaking. It even broke the tension with a good fun pure Alfred moment where he tried to cover for Bruce in saying he was Batman. :D Another nice one to have complemented that would've been if after Barbara said Bruce will have help she followed up with, "Now can we swing back to my place so I can pick up my costume?" It would've served as another good moment of levity and also exposition in one sentence how her uniform miraculously appeared out of nowhere. :p

Still a good quality episode that rang true to the feel of an old BTAS ep combined with the futuristic sleekness of TNBA designs, which is always appreciated. But it just didn't manage to push the envelope far enuff to make the jump from good to great.

[mbaker]

Great episode. It was shocking to see Batman go over the edge with that one guy while his family looks on in horror. Resulting in Dick's departure from the Bat family. I felt bad pretty for Barbra after Dick punched Bruce in the face. Powerful stuff. Was this the first time Batgirl learns of Bruce & Dick's secret? I don't think she did on Batman:TAS. nor was she ever seen in The Batcave until TNBA. I liked how Dick, and Tim settled their differenced about Bruce, and moved on with their work at the end.

[DKstormyknight]

(Robin) "You coming?" (Nightwing) "I guess it's about time"
I loved this episode, it was very well done! I loved how Dick forgave Bruce at the end, great part! Great story too, this is now one of my favorite episodes! 5 stars! :D


:cool:

[Jerry Mouse]

Pretty good episode. I had never seen it before so I learned a little bit of stuff that I didn't know. http://images.bravenet.com/brpics/smilie/batman.gif

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

This is the only episode of Batman that I have never seen before but I taped it so I'll see it soon...I'll watch as soon as my brother is done watching Seinfeld.

[Bleu Unicorn]

You can just stick ditto marks around BB's and Web's posts 'cause they both said exactly what I'm thinking. Really this is one of the best of the TNBA batch of episodes imho. And while it packs a punch and is terrific, I would have liked to see it expanded upon more -- maybe as a two-parter even. Still, no big complaints.

As a side note, how many times has Barb fallen off of a building now -- three times total? :D Poor thing.

[BatChick]

*****

I loved this. I had been waiting to see this one again for so long. And they did an excellent job with this.

Dick is just angry enough to make you feel for him and not think he's being a big jerk. He has every right to get mad at Bruce for what he's done. Afterall, the only reason Dick didn't tell Babs was to protect Bruce.

I agree with BB and Web. It should have been a two-parter. But oh well can't have everything.

[Hawk Wing]

I thought the episode was descent, but not one of the greatest. It does a good job at showing why Dick gave up being Batman, but other than that it was just descent, not great. It had a good story and all but i just feel that it needed a bit more. Like what happened after he stopped being Robin(in detail, no the i traveled the world stuff), where did he go, it left us with more questions then answers imo. I would give this 3 out of 5 stars, its worth watching a second time.

[oranthal]

there were 2 subtle things that impressed me.

1) the scene with barbara and dick were in the restaurant. after a line or two, barbara asks him if he plans a vow of poverty. dick metions he had a trust fund when his parents died and at that moment, you could see grayson's eyes look down for a brief moment. it shows that he is still saddened thinking about his parents, and it is that attention to detail by the animators and the story boards impressed me.

2) the other scene when robin arrives on the scene with batman after he got beeped. after a brief conversation, batman jumps down and for a quick second, robin pumps his fists showing his disgust at batman.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

At last! I've seen every episode of Batman: The Animated Series now. This episode was pretty good...it was nice to see Dick Grayson as Robin back in action again...even if it was just in a flashback. I'll probably rate this episode 4 1/2 stars.

[Patrick Bateman]

4 1/2 Stars.

I liked it a lot, but it this was too important of a story to be crammed into a single episode. A two or even three-parter would've given them much more time to show the tension between Bruce and Dick growing stronger until Dick finally snapped. It would have made it seem much more significant.

[SirLemming]

This is clearly a 5-star episode. It's cool to have an episode where conflicts arise between two heroes, because that's how it would be in real life. They wouldn't just stay vigilant all the time. It brings humanity to the show -- something that's currently lacking in Justice League (although the episode "A Knight of Shadows" is clearly a head above the rest of them in this respect, and hopefully is a preview of things to come).
As oranthal mentioned, there are great subtleties here. One I noticed was when Robin left the house where Batman was roughing the guy up. Batman looked like he was about to get angry, but instead of changing to an angrier face, he changed to... something else. Still angry, but not as angry. Something was definitely going on there.

The Joker had a good line here (not a direct quote): "What an entrance. Either you guys don't know how to use a door, or you just love picking glass out of your suits."
And when will people stop knocking Batgirl off of tall buildings? Geeze!

[susan123]

Another great episode showing the final breakup between Dick and Bruce. It would have been nice to have this a two parter but we don't really need to see the tension building between Dick and Bruce--it has already been seen in past episodes of BTAS. The episodes that come to mine are "Second Chance", "Robin's Reckoning", and "Night of the Ninja" to name a few. Those episodes clearly show Robin (Dick) trying to help take some of the worry off of Batman's shoulders but he refuses to open up and let those who care about him most help him like Alfred and Dick.

One thing I would have liked to have seen was why Dick suddenly lost interest in Barbra. I thought they really cared about one another but finding out their other identities just suddenly ended any romantic possibilities between them.

All in all, a 5 star episode.

[Nik Jam]

I really liked it. The ending was really good. Especcialy the part about the future of the guy Batman sorta "mugged" in front of his famly. 5/5

[AceOfKnaves]

This to me was one of the best ones. It explained a lot things, and was an all around, interesting episode. 5 stars. :)

[Calico]

Very awesome episode, and even though it could have been fleshed out more as a two-parter it did seem to come full circle, once they found who the wallet belonged to and Nightwing learned that Batman hadn't lost his humanity all together. But I'm still left unclear as to why Bruce was so quick to let Barbara in on their secret. Did he think it would help their relationship? Still ****1/2 easy.

[SirLemming]

Oh, there's one thing I forgot! I thought it was interesting that Dick said the whole thing about "You think it was your choice. You don't know him. He manipulates." Flash forward to Batman Beyond, "A Touch of Curaré." Barbara says the same thing. ...or at least I think she does. Am I getting this right? I'm pretty sure that somewhere in Batman Beyond Barbara said that to Terry. That episode is the one where she talks to him the most... Can anyone confirm that?

Heck, I'll confirm it myself after I get offline and watch the tape.

[The_NewCatwoman]

I was rather pissed off because the sound went out on our satellite which requires unplugging to get it to come back on, not to mention waiting for the box to get itself back into order.

Arggghhhh! Of course the caption decided not to work either so I was just S.O.L. until a commercial since I wasn't about to just turn it off during one of my favorite eps.

Thank god I remembered the majority of the dialogue on my own and was able to follow everything until I could fix the prob.

Otherwise four and a half stars. Not /the/ top ep, but definitely up there on my list.

[Naraht]

about the suit...

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't babs have a grey suit prior to TNBA? If so, perhaps her TNBA suit was designed by Bruce. He knew who she was, he tends to be prepared for things like this.

[Caped Crusader]

Originally posted by Naraht
about the suit...

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't babs have a grey suit prior to TNBA? If so, perhaps her TNBA suit was designed by Bruce. He knew who she was, he tends to be prepared for things like this.


Or maybe she just made another suit.



This was an excellent episode!

The tension was building between Dick and Bruce for a while; it was only a matter of time before Dick gave up being Robin, and I thought that scene was pulled off very nicely. Another great part was when he forgave Bruce in the end.

True, this episode could’ve been longer, but I still thought it was very well done, and it’s one of my favorites.

[DerekPowers]

great ep. seriously, this was awesome.

i give it 5 stars.

i had only ONE complaint, and that is the joker's dialogue. it was campy as hell. seriously, i understand using the joker for comic relieve, i mean he is a clown, but theres a difference between cracking jokes and being campy, and here, it was pure camp. oh well, not a big deal, but it started to become alittle annoying.

whatever, i still give it 5 stars. peace.

[Nick K.]

This might be one of the best, and one of my favorite, Batman episodes. Why Dicky left Bruce! It's airing this Sunday morning, at 1, on CN, as usual. I cant wait to see it!!! What does everyone think/ remember? Or lets wait till we see it! All i know is im excited! :bosko:

[Nightwing]

Hey now, with an episode like this there should be billions of more recent replies! Let this thread be bumped once again! Tonight at 1 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs what can only be described as my definitive New Batman Adventures episode, Old Wounds.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #102 - Old Wounds
Original Airdate - October 3rd, 1998.

The original Robin, Dick Grayson recounts to the new Robin, Tim Drake, why he and Batman broke up as a crime-fighting team.

Comments?

[James]

Chilling episode as we see what mistake beget another.... Bruce's obsession getting deeper, a new family forming... all great stuff. A rather mature episode.

I think the highlight for me is Bruce's biggest error and that was giving Barbara access to the gave. He thinks he's doing it in Dick's interest but the world's greatest detective has totally misread how dicey his relationship is with his partner and screws up bad in doing so.

Some great Joker lines in here too. The dodgy one about beating up Batman's crew is particuarly well delivered, as is the smack to Batgirls chin by the telescope. :)

[randomguy]

This is the last TNBA episode that's new to me. My Lord, am I psyched to see it, especially since I never got around to reading The Lost Years.

[screw on head]

a benchmark ep. it definately had a shocking moment at the end, in regards to dick punching bruce in the face, one of my fav moments of any tnba ep.i saw this ep before reading lost years, and wasnt clear on the events between the revamp and btas. this ep said a lot to me, and i liked seeing the old robin costume and old batcycle appear again as well. it's well worth staying up for.

[Batman]

This episode has one of my favorite Joker gag's, with his "I have spinach in my teeth" comment. Hammill's delivery of that little comment is just really funny. I always get a chuckle out of it. It's a nice little tension breaker in this episode, which is just steeped in maturity. It's interesting to see a relationship such as the one between Batman and Robin just slowly crumble.

I also really like the redesign to Grayson's Robin costume in this episode. It's a bit sleeker, tighter, and looks great! You just can't beat Lester's delivery, either, when he says "I quit." The way he says it is chilling.

The punch? One of the big highlights of all 109 Batman episodes.

[oranthal]

At the very beginning, after the crook in the white T-shirt got in his dome hit with a batterang, how was able to get up so quick and put a garbage can over Robin's head? You would think a batterang to the melon will a knock a guy out.

After seeing Batman rough up his father, Connner's kid will grow up hating Batman forever. Stuff like that tends to stick with you.

[dtemplar]

I liked FOX's run on Batman: The Animated Series. I hated the WB's run on The New Batman Adventures. But Old Wounds is the best episode out the WB's entire run. The reason was when Dick Grayson knocked Batman on his butt.

*****, best episode period.

[Eddie G.]

I have no gift to bring....bump da-bump bump bump.

Anyway good episode.

[TimmFan]

I agree that this episode did pack a punch in terms of drama and surprise, but I think it could've went a whole lot farther if they expanded upon the story of Batman's eventual descent into the events shown in that guy's apartment.

As is it appears that Batman's muscling of some random hood in front of his family became the BIG straw that broke the camel's back (the ONLY straw, not just the last) and ended their partnership. I would've liked the writers to have taken their time with this story and develop, over the course of maybe a two parter, a sequence of events:
Bruce subtly becoming colder, then unreasonable and dismissive till finally all the job seemed to be to him was ends justifying the means, with the situation culminating into Dick quiting, making for a much stronger overall impact.


I agree that we could've used more of a build-up to the Bruce and Dick fall-out, but I'm also sorta satisfied with Batman's "over-the-top" reaction with the hood in front of his family. The magnitude of the Joker's weapon, combined with the random hood being his only real lead, makes Batman take the extreme measure that he does, and probably makes it seem less extreme to him. Juxtapose roughing up the hood in front of his wife and kid with Robin being reminded of his mom and dad, and we see the natural tension there as well. And Bruce missing the graduation can be seen as another (or the implied latest) indication that "family" is becoming less important to him as well (albeit a slightly heavy-handed one).

I guess I'm saying that a two-parter would've been very welcome, but upon repeated viewings, the staff did pretty well within the time constraints at showing the cracks popping up in Bruce and Dick's relationship and the "new" approach Batman was taking towards the job.

As for the ep...can't say anthing better about it that wouldn't be obvious, except that I always thought the ending fight on the rooftop was ultra-tight (especially where Batman flings himself and Batgirl over the ledge in one motion), and my mouth dropped open just like Barbara's after "the punch."

Five stars.

[TheWonderTwits]

Great ep. One of my favorites... up there, IMO, with "Legends of the Dark Knight" (mainly because of the "Joel" Schumacher dig and seeing Frank' Miller's Dark Knight Returns animated-WITH Michael Ironside as the big guy!)and "Knight Time".. "is it me, or does he look bigger"

5 stars baby!!! :p

[TheWonderTwits]

Just wonderin... but is that a mullet on Nightwing?!?!?! :D ;) :p

[Batman Fan]

I can't believe this talkback hasn't been brought up with the release of Batman Vol.4, I mean, this is one of the standout episodes of the New Adventures run, by filling in the gaps between TAS and NA.

Anyways, this is an excellent an episode, and one of TNA best!

It all starts out with our young Robin fighting some thugs, and Nightwing coming in to get one he missed. When Robin compares Dick to Batman, we get a very cold and harsh remark from him saying they are nothing alike and the flashback story persues. I thought it was kinda symbolic how the new Robin wanted to know just what happened between the old Batman and Robin, which he admired so much, and to see what happened to Dick that made him decide to give up the Robin costume, and in a sense, maybe it was Tim's way into getting to know Bruce better, and what may inevitably be happpening to him in the future.

The flashback was handeled perfectly. It brilliantly fit together all the pieces of the mystery behind Dick's transformation and did a great job showing the tension building between him and Bruce and how Barbara was stuck in the middle of it all. They also did a great job humanizing Dick, by showing his college graduation and seeing him on a date with Barbara, which was really sweet. As it progressed, you could see just how sick Dick was getting of Bruce, starting out mildly with saying he has a life besides Robin leading into his departure from Robin.

The main thing here was to show the differences between Dick and Bruce. While Dick has a heart and human side under him, shown while Batman interrogates Conner, and seeing Dick looking through the eyes of Conner's family and seeing how horrified they were, which was an excellent scene that really depicted black and white between Bruce and Dick, as Batman was portrayed very cold hearted in that scene. Then comes Barbara, who cares for Dick a lot and wants to know whats going on between the two, which I thought was really sweet of her. Finally, she's in on the secret of Batman and Robin, which I thought was a breaking point for Bruce, I mean, why else would he show her the cave unless he didn't really care about both Dick and Barbara.

The Joker was an excellent choice for a villan. The Dynamic Duos archrival is the last enemy they face together. In a sense, I guess you could say it was The Joker, who finally was able to break apart the Duo, and if he knew that, I'm sure that would've done wonders to his ego. The ending action scene with the Joker was amazing. Not much of a diabolical plot for the Joker, hijacking a radar to disrupt aircraft, but it worked for the situaiton. Batgirl was really able to prove herself, by holding her own against the Joker and his thugs, while Batman was having problems with his glider and the hyenas. When Robin finally arrived, you could tell he felt betrayed seeing the girl he loves with the man he can't seem to reason with. In the end, they both bond together to save Batman, and Batgirl saves the day, by tricking Joker into destroying the radar, just before a plane crosses over. One thing I liked was Joker's reaction too Batgirl, and the line about hitting Batman's kids.

In the end, Dick feels betrayed and used seeing Barbara working for Bruce. In a powerful scene where Batgirl tries to convience him that she chose to work for Bruce, it's the final straw for Dick as he gives up Robin and strikes Batman. I have to say, Dick's anger was misplaced for a bit, being mad at Barbara for keeping a secret from him while he was doing the same, but it transferred to Bruce, who wasn't really sure how to deal with situation and wasn't able to save his ward. The end were Nightwing realizes maybe Bruce has changed or always had a heart while talking to Conner and being told Bruce gave him a job was a great way to smack Dick in the face and tell him that maybe a part of him was wrong, but he had to do what he did to become his own man, and at the end, flying off with Robin saying it's about time was a nice finish with the great music playing at the episode ends.

And what, so the animation isn't that great, you just can't blame the episodes amazing story for some mediocre animation.

****1/2

[Trevor Balena]

Finally, she's in on the secret of Batman and Robin, which I thought was a breaking point for Bruce, I mean, why else would he show her the cave unless he didn't really care about both Dick and Barbara.

That's an odd way of looking at it, if you don't mind my saying so.

Bruce saw that the secret was causing damage to Dick's relationship with Barbara, so he tried to remedy that by letting Barbara in on the secret. He was trying to help.

Of course, he screwed it up by not taking Dick's feelings into account; if Dick had wanted her to know, he would have already told her himself.

[DisneyBoy]

I think it should be taken into account that although Bruce never acted on any kind of romantic affection towards Barbara on-screen, much less show any, there's definately the possibility that Bruce was partly acting out of shelfishness by introducing Barbara to what is essentially his private life.

It would be nice to think of Bruce as the good guy, always making the decisions he feels are in the best interest of those around him. But human beings are selfish to some extent, and that's especially true of the best characters in fiction.

I agree that Bruce's main intention was to try and patch things up with Dick, but since the story of the DCAU says that he eventually had a relationship with Barbara, I also see his bringing her into the Batcave as a veiled way of doing with her what he could with no other woman...being completely open about his indentity, and offering to make her his partner.

[Batman Fan]

Originally posted by TBalena
That's an odd way of looking at it, if you don't mind my saying so.

Bruce saw that the secret was causing damage to Dick's relationship with Barbara, so he tried to remedy that by letting Barbara in on the secret. He was trying to help.

Of course, he screwed it up by not taking Dick's feelings into account; if Dick had wanted her to know, he would have already told her himself.


The way I always looked at was that it was the perfect time for Bruce to introduce Barbara into his world, his life. Not only to save his relationship with Dick, but to let another potential ally in on his crusade, and somehow, it always seemed to me that Batman was a bit protective and caring of Barbara in B:TAS episodes being so close to Jim and all. And as DisneyBoy mentioned, the DCAU says somewhere down the line their was a romantic relationship between the two and most of this was shown off screen, so this was Bruce's chance to let someone who he really obviously cares about a lot to show his true side too.

[Mynd Hed]

Of course, he screwed it up by not taking Dick's feelings into account; if Dick had wanted her to know, he would have already told her himself.

I dunno, the way I interpreted it, Dick wanted to tell her but wouldn't because he didn't want to betray Bruce. So there was some irony at work-- as pissed as Dick was at Bruce, it would never occur to him to compromise his secret identity.
Now, of course, the sensible thing for Bruce to have done might've been to sit Dick down and tell him, "Hey, so Barb is Batgirl, and I've been thinking that maybe we should let her into the 'cave, y'know, bring her on board officially, what are your thoughts?" But of course, that would've required him to make a decision WITH someone instead of FOR them and talk about his feelings frankly and honestly to boot, so that's out. (-:

[DisneyBoy]

WITH versus FOR. VERY good point!

But of course, how would Bruce broach the topic of knowing that Barbara was Batgirl without setting Dick off?

Is it just me, or was there so much more dramatic potential than what this episode offered us?

[bat313]

I have a question, was dick just being upset and irrational when he said something like "you think it was your desicion but it's not, he tricks you, manipulates you, messes with your head......" something like that. But either way, why would batman have tricked Dick into become Robin or any of the rest. As far as i can tell Batman tried to stop everyone becuase he knew of what they'd have to sacrafice.

[DisneyBoy]

When, as a boy, Dick set out to get revenge on his parents, Bruce and Batman were there to save him and open up to him. From what we've seen, there's little evidence Bruce discouraged him from entering into the fray. As he even tells him "I thought we had the same goals", to which Dick replies "Things changed. I changed. The game's over Batman - I quit!"

Sadly, I don't see Dick's departure as much of a victory in terms of his personal ideals. The way it came off, Dick just seemed fed up of being the sidekick, following Batman's rules and fearing he'd someday become just like him. Think about the timing of the team's breakup. Dick just graduated, things were going too well with Barbara and the only thing keeping him from total independence was his role as Robin, which grounded him in the Batcave and at Batman's side. It only stands to reason then that he'd want to sever that tie, if only to be free and his own man.

I don't really think Dick went about it in the best way by scaring Barbara in the middle of the night and then blowing up at them both after the tangle with the Joker. But he had every right to be emotional, and given that he was on the brink of adulthood, it would have been hard to believe it if he was dealing with everything just fine.

So, from my view, Dick had an emotional breakdown of sorts, Bruce took action for two conflicting reasons, and Babs was spared having to make any of the big calls. Then again, she did seem awfully happy to volunteer to help Bruce out with Joker. It could have been that she was high on the idea of Bruce finally showing some genuine interest in her, given her massive crush on the Dark Knight.

In many ways, this whole love triangle makes Babs into one heck of an interesting character. Given that she made at least one obvious attempt to see if Dick was still interested in her (that sweet scene with the photo of the two of them at Dick's loft), it's possible she decided to give up on him entirely and focus instead on her careers and Batman/Bruce. I have to give the team credit for underplaying the love triangle...but without a climax it's kind of incomplete.

[Crambam]

Great episode. MIght have been cooler if they took the time to show how he chose the Nightwing get up.

[Yojimbo]

Great episode. MIght have been cooler if they took the time to show how he chose the Nightwing get up.

Maybe so, but the only thing to do is go out to a comic book store and buy the Lost Years TPB.

[Oh look I'm...]

How exactly can a kid watching this (on TV) admire someone who puts an unarmed civilian through harsh interrogation in front of a frightened family?

[Frank Castle]

How exactly can a kid watching this (on TV) admire someone who puts an unarmed civilian through harsh interrogation in front of a frightened family?
Umm...you do know that the "civilian" was part of an operation that stole a radar scrambler which would drop dozens of planes out of the sky into the city. I think Batman had a right to be pissed at that guy.

[S.C.B]

Umm...you do know that the "civilian" was part of an operation that stole a radar scrambler which would drop dozens of planes out of the sky into the city. I think Batman had a right to be pissed at that guy.

That, and he makes up for it by the episode's end by giving the guy a job and checking up on him as Bruce Wayne. Also, while I'm not saying it justified his actions, Batman's scaring the bejeezus out of the guy made him put his life back on track.

I had to watch this episode a few times over before I really understood why Dick punched Batman. It just seemed to come out of nowhere upon the first viewing. Yes, Dick was yelling at him and was pretty angry, but it felt like nothing we hadn't seen before in 'Robin's Reckoning' or 'Second Chance'.

But then after re-watching it a few times, I began to see everything building. Robin seeing (or perhaps just becoming aware of it after turning a subconscious blind eye to it) Batman's brutality. Bruce keeping Batgirl's identity from him. Batman putting her in danger when he knows she isn't properly trained. I mean, this is the Joker we're talking about here, and Bruce invites her along for the ride. Maybe his partnership with Dick softened him somewhat to the idea of having backup, and it felt unnatural to him not to have someone by his side.

It certainly wasn't the best way Dick or Bruce could have handled it. But from a character and storytelling point of view, I'll be damned if it wasn't entertaining.

[DisneyBoy]

Very good points. I'm still trying to understand the punch, and that helped a lot.

[Antiyonder]

Umm...you do know that the "civilian" was part of an operation that stole a radar scrambler which would drop dozens of planes out of the sky into the city. I think Batman had a right to be pissed at that guy.


Also, I believe a letter page in TLY mentions, that from Batman's POV, he felt it necessary to let the family know that they had a criminal in their midst.

[pixellj]

This episode really should've been a 2-parter. It's a very significant happening in the Batman world, and more time should've been spent, using more the TLY comics, which were pretty cool.

The most subtle thing I thought was missing was how Bruce figured out that Babs is Batgirl. In the comic, watching her play tennis and "leaving her left open" was brilliant, and even added more one-up-man-ship between Bruce and Dick at the same time when he beat Babs when dick couldn't. Nice deduction that was really missing in TNBA as a whole. In the episode, Bruce just sorta knew somehow.

[DisneyBoy]

Actually, I didn't really enjoy the "left side open" explanation in The Lost Years comics. To me, it made sense that Batman already knew. I mean, Barbara's attempts to save her father in "Shadow of the Bat" didn't really disguise her very well. Given that Batman lectured Ms Gordon in Part One, and saw a redhead in a costume and lectured her too...I think we were supposed to assume that he knew from the beginning.

Also, Bruce respects the idea of a secret identity, and wouldn't have told Dick, even before he became involved with Barbara, simply because it was never his place to tell on her.

[AlienX]

I never read TLY comics I cant find them but Ive been wonder how significant it could have made tnba I felt this series was very lively like superman but also had a edge to it like b tas . But the connections between tnba and btas are vague because of how we never saw a story arc about how he changed and became more morbid he at least looked happy in btas but here he couldnt . I think that tnba should have been longer to flesh out nightwing more he only appeared in 7 episodes and I would have liked to see him and robin have more teamwork . But has anyone wondered what happened what happened between dg and batman between tnba and bb or why he wasnt featured at the end of the rotj movie .

[Babat]

I think it should be taken into account that although Bruce never acted on any kind of romantic affection towards Barbara on-screen, much less show any, there's definately the possibility that Bruce was partly acting out of shelfishness by introducing Barbara to what is essentially his private life.

It would be nice to think of Bruce as the good guy, always making the decisions he feels are in the best interest of those around him. But human beings are selfish to some extent, and that's especially true of the best characters in fiction.

I agree that Bruce's main intention was to try and patch things up with Dick, but since the story of the DCAU says that he eventually had a relationship with Barbara, I also see his bringing her into the Batcave as a veiled way of doing with her what he could with no other woman...being completely open about his indentity, and offering to make her his partner.

That is interesting. I never thought of it that way before but its possible scenario. I mean we don't know when bruce started to develop a feeling for barbara in romantic way but he did at certain point since the relationship is already established in BB.

Dick kind of annoyed me in this and later episode in the way he acts. He shouldn't be getting mad at bruce for keeping barb's secret since its not his place to reveal it. He shouldn't be bringing barb in the fight between he and bruce. Why should barb be upset with bruce just because he and dick are having issues. It's between them. And I didn't like that he was giving barb an ultimatium to either chosing him or keeping her batgirl persona specially when he is in the same business as she is. If he really loved her, he would be willing to carry a relationship with her and tolerate her being batgirl. That doesn't require him and bruce working things out, and its not like she and bruce was romantically involved at the time either. I can understand the breakdown he was having in this episode but he continues his behavior and rejection of barb in later episodes when he should have thought of the situation more clearly. I'm glad anyway since I'm not into dick/barb pairing but still no surprise he lost the girl. Overall is good episode. I like it, and I agree with the people that say it should have been two episodes to flash the drama out a bit.

[young101]

Remember, dick's alienation from bruce has been building up for years since btas... So its not just because of babs identity and the things we only saw in the episode. Bruce over protected him which probably made him always feel like he was a child as we saw in robin's reckoning and bruce probably continued doing that to him whether it was leaving him out of a fight for no explanation or whatever. As we saw, bruce doesnt always tell dick everything which frustrates him. Dick's a young college guy who doesnt always wanna be crime fighting when bruce tells him to and bruce didnt even attend his graduation... So much for being there for him at the important parts of his life. And of course, dick didnt always like the way bruce handled things when bruce was batman such as his interrogations.